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RE: Pagan, heathen, witch, Wiccan, Druid - 6/1/2006 7:56:19 AM

MHOO314

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Joined: 9/26/2004
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<smiles and steps forward>--I am an active follower of Wicca, I am a Wiccan and I am a white witch---the Lady Amethyst to the deities---once an active Catholic--I feel today I have far more spirituality then I once did following a prescribed doctrine-and it is for Me all encompassing...

_____________________________

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Mistress Hathor

(in reply to fergus)

Post #: 21

RE: Pagan, heathen, witch, Wiccan, Druid - 6/1/2006 8:15:33 AM

ArtCatDom

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Joined: 1/20/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: RavenMuse

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado
A couple of points... the Wiccan rede was "do as ye will is the whole of the law"... the 'harm none' bit is latter day PR spin doctoring.

Do try not to state your opinion as a statement of fact, especialy when it is wrong.

Crowley coined the "Do as ye will shalt be the whole of the law", However he wasn't Wiccan. The harm none has been part of it since it was first used as the rede in a Wiccan context.

Do him the courtesy of reading over his posts before jumping the gun. It's no grand secret that Gardner was a member of the OTO (at the least he was initiated into the group, I admit my knowledge of the extant of participation is lacking).

He also clearly admits the influence of Crowley on Gardner (and therefore obstensibly, Wicca):
http://www.collarchat.com/m_400296/mpage_1/key_/tm.htm#401111

*meow*

(in reply to RavenMuse)

Post #: 22

RE: Pagan, heathen, witch, Wiccan, Druid - 6/1/2006 8:31:37 AM

NakedOnMyChain

Posts: 2431
Joined: 11/29/2004
From: Indiana
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MHOO314

<smiles and steps forward>--I am an active follower of Wicca, I am a Wiccan and I am a white witch---the Lady Amethyst to the deities---once an active Catholic--I feel today I have far more spirituality then I once did following a prescribed doctrine-and it is for Me all encompassing...

Ditto... in those exact words. LOL.

I was born and raised Roman Catholic, my Dad's the head of parish council at our cathedral, and I went to Catholic schools from preschool until the time I fought it so hard they let me switch to public schools my junior year of high school. My two little brothers and little sister have been raised the same way. I'm the first in my family to not be Catholic. My parents didn't take it very well, but now we just don't talk much about it and we're fine. I'll admit that it delights me when my Mom or one of my little brothers asks me questions about what I believe. It's nice to give them the chance to understand. Wicca, my version of it anyway (solitary and eclectic), is the only spirituality in which I ever felt I truly belonged. I've tried other religions on for size, but none of them fit just right. It was a relief to find in Wicca a religion that felt tailor-made, as it suited me perfectly. It felt right.

_____________________________

"Oh, it's torture, but I'm almost there."
~The Cure

"I ask for so little. Just fear me, love me, do as I say, and I will be your slave."
~The Labyrinth

(in reply to MHOO314)

Post #: 23

RE: Pagan, heathen, witch, Wiccan, Druid - 6/1/2006 9:41:01 AM

fergus

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Joined: 6/22/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

A couple of points... the Wiccan rede was "do as ye will is the whole of the law"... the 'harm none' bit is latter day PR spin doctoring.

And just as mainstream religions have to bear the cross of their kookier adherents, no mention of neo-paganism would be complete without talking about the lovely Wodinists and other white supremacist notions in priest's clothing.

People are people and carrying around a different book, icon, or scrap of cloth is not going to change a damn thing about the way they act.

I am sorry, you are incorrect. "the whole of the law" part is from Corwley's original, and not Wiccan. Gardner - who used a LOT of influence from Crowley - modified Crowley's law to create the Wiccan Rede. And from Gardner's re-working, it has always been "harm none"

About the Wotonists - yes. THere ARE some kooky groups out there, including white supremecists (*sigh* of all things). This is a VERY minor part of Heathenism, and NOT reflective of most ASATRU let ALONE most of the greater pagan community!

fergus

< Message edited by fergus -- 6/1/2006 9:42:55 AM >

(in reply to Alumbrado)

Post #: 24

RE: Pagan, heathen, witch, Wiccan, Druid - 6/1/2006 9:47:02 AM

fergus

Posts: 1110
Joined: 6/22/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Medusinae

I identify with several of these terms - plus several others - but will add that YOUR definitions are not necessarily my views.

I do follow an eclectic tradition of Wicca; I am a witch, a Reiki Master, an intuitive reader, an animal whisperer and many other non-defined titles. I have a great circle of friends in which my role is ever-changing.

I am also a dominant female in this life. Being connected to one's spiritual life does not mean that one cannot be involved in BDSM. For me, it is an enhancement...

~M

Well ... umm ... okay. But I didn't state in the OP that there was or was not any particular connection with BDSM to any of the above. If you include that in your spirituality, great! Also, yes, all Wiccans are witches. Not all witches are Wiccans ;)

Interesting side note - traditional Gardnerian Wicca includes use of a scourge for initiation and punishments (do a web search on the Wiccan Ardanes). This is usually not a part of most modern Wicca today, and many Wiccans do not even know that it ever WAS a part of it.

fergus

(in reply to Medusinae)

Post #: 25

RE: Pagan, heathen, witch, Wiccan, Druid - 6/1/2006 9:56:48 AM

IronBear

Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: fergus

quote:

ORIGINAL: Medusinae

I identify with several of these terms - plus several others - but will add that YOUR definitions are not necessarily my views.

I do follow an eclectic tradition of Wicca; I am a witch, a Reiki Master, an intuitive reader, an animal whisperer and many other non-defined titles. I have a great circle of friends in which my role is ever-changing.

I am also a dominant female in this life. Being connected to one's spiritual life does not mean that one cannot be involved in BDSM. For me, it is an enhancement...

~M

Interesting side note - traditional Gardnerian Wicca includes use of a scourge for initiation and punishments (do a web search on the Wiccan Ardanes). This is usually not a part of most modern Wicca today, and many Wiccans do not even know that it ever WAS a part of it.

fergus

This may be true in the US fergus, but I dare say that most wiccans in Australia are not only aware of it but many covens and especially those who stemmed from the original coven I had in Perth WA and the one O founded (Covenof Lothlorien) are very well aware of the scourge (which was also part of the Alexandrian Tradition too) as well as the using of the scourge as a means of raising the level of awareness and reaching an altered state. The same as using breath controll my means of a knotted rope to block the blood flow to the head temporily. Sush practices were refered to as "Wariking" and I have somewhere amongst a large pile of notes, scrolls and books, references to it's ise in "The Old Religion" predating Gardner. There are notes of both the use of the scourge and wariking in the journals of my Grandfather refering training family members in Scotland and again when he moved to Australia prior to WW1.

_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

(in reply to fergus)

Post #: 26

RE: Pagan, heathen, witch, Wiccan, Druid - 6/1/2006 9:57:16 AM

RavenMuse

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Joined: 1/23/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ArtCatDom
Do him the courtesy of reading over his posts before jumping the gun. It's no grand secret that Gardner was a member of the OTO (at the least he was initiated into the group, I admit my knowledge of the extant of participation is lacking).

He also clearly admits the influence of Crowley on Gardner (and therefore obstensibly, Wicca):
http://www.collarchat.com/m_400296/mpage_1/key_/tm.htm#401111

*meow*

I did indeed read and it doesn't change the fact that whilst indeed there is an obvious influence he is incorrect in stating that the rede was worded without the harm none proviso in a Wiccan context.

_____________________________

This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.

Owner of metalmiss

(in reply to ArtCatDom)

Post #: 27

RE: Pagan, heathen, witch, Wiccan, Druid - 6/1/2006 9:59:23 AM

fergus

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Joined: 6/22/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Demspotis

One of my standard definitions of both "pagan" and "heathen" is "an adherent of any religion that does not set itself apart from the rest of humanity (the rest being defined as infidel, pagan, etc.), nor condemn all others." In other words, in this defintion "pagan" is the norm and mainstream of humanity, in contrast to those religions that claim some exclusive hold on truth, and/or absolute superiority over other people and religions.

There are other valid definitions, including those given by the previous posters.

Are "Hindus" (more properly Sanatana-dharmis) "pagan"? Some Hindus reject the label on either or both of these grounds: its pejorative connotation when used by fanatics, or the assumption that pagan = polytheist. While Hinduism has many Gods, it also has a clear and ancient tradition of a transcendent Supreme Being.

On the other hand, more and more Hindus are now becoming aware that their civilization and religion are closely related to the true "pagan" heritage of most Europeans, and therefore now recognize the relationship, and may accept the label in that connection. Most of the peoples of India and Europe, their languages and their original religions and cultures together, by definition, form the Indo-European family. In fact, some Hindu leaders have during the last decade taken prominent and leading roles in various unity movements, both between Indian and European "pagans" and unity movements among all indigenous and traditional religions (that is excluding the fanatics). The magazine "Hinduism Today" has had several articles on the connections between the Indian and European religions over the last few years, and several years ago an Indian magazine named "Bharatiya Pragna" had a theme issue of comparison between them, featuring both Hindu and Pagan writers.

I will leave it up to the Hindus if they want to called "pagan" or not. Seems silly to me, as "Hindu" seems to work just fine. Anyway, it is bad enough that amost everyone in paganism misuses and misapplies the Hindu word "karma". ;)

fergus

(in reply to Demspotis)

Post #: 28

RE: Pagan, heathen, witch, Wiccan, Druid - 6/1/2006 10:01:16 AM

RavenMuse

Posts: 4030
Joined: 1/23/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: fergus
Interesting side note - traditional Gardnerian Wicca includes use of a scourge for initiation and punishments (do a web search on the Wiccan Ardanes). This is usually not a part of most modern Wicca today, and many Wiccans do not even know that it ever WAS a part of it.

To reiterate the words of Ironbear, that maybe the case in America, I don't know, I'm here not there *g*

I can tell you that the scourge is still a current part of both Gardnarian and Alexandrian practice to current day here in the UK (I was trained in an Alexandrian coven and worked closely with a local, Gardnarian coven)

_____________________________

This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.

Owner of metalmiss

(in reply to fergus)

Post #: 29

RE: Pagan, heathen, witch, Wiccan, Druid - 6/1/2006 10:05:44 AM

fergus

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Joined: 6/22/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

Not to say that those Wiccans spoke for everyone, or were even correct, just that there was a period of time where the lines were quite blurred within the community.... and the current version of the rede doesn't seem to have coalesced until the mid 70s.

Now THAT is VERY true! Lines were blurred then (some of them on purpose ... Gardner took a lot of steps to make Wicca APPEAR ancient. Lines are still blurred today.

fergus

(in reply to Alumbrado)

Post #: 30

RE: Pagan, heathen, witch, Wiccan, Druid - 6/1/2006 10:10:19 AM

fergus

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Joined: 6/22/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: RavenMuse

quote:

ORIGINAL: fergus
Interesting side note - traditional Gardnerian Wicca includes use of a scourge for initiation and punishments (do a web search on the Wiccan Ardanes). This is usually not a part of most modern Wicca today, and many Wiccans do not even know that it ever WAS a part of it.

To reiterate the words of Ironbear, that maybe the case in America, I don't know, I'm here not there *g*

I can tell you that the scourge is still a current part of both Gardnarian and Alexandrian practice to current day here in the UK (I was trained in an Alexandrian coven and worked closely with a local, Gardnarian coven)

Ah yes, I am sure it is still common in Gards and Algards here in the states, but these group sare pretty few here these days, and MOST Wiccans over here are of the "solitary eclectic" variety. Many without good directed education. This has been both good and bad. It brings in the freshness of new ideas, but it also creates a groundswell of 'know it alls' with no real education or experience in their own faith. Some, through good self-study, DO get the spiritual guidance that they need ... but you know how we Americans are .... try to tell us ANYTHING different and our gut reaction is "who are you to tell me!"

fergus

(in reply to RavenMuse)

Post #: 31

RE: Pagan, heathen, witch, Wiccan, Druid - 6/1/2006 10:14:39 AM

RavenMuse

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Joined: 1/23/2006
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Oh those... didn't know they where in the majority, but yes I have met them. Quite gave one a nasty turn... a dianic, who turned a strange shade of green when I explained the symbology of her placing her Atheme in the chalice whilst blessing the wine (Great rite in symbolic form)

_____________________________

This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.

Owner of metalmiss

(in reply to fergus)

Post #: 32

RE: Pagan, heathen, witch, Wiccan, Druid - 6/1/2006 10:20:31 AM

MisPandora

Posts: 2911
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From: Philadelphia, PA
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So when are we going to have you come down and be a part of the FSG Sacred Sexuality Beltane Festival at Ramblewood?????? Hmmmmm?

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Pandora
Ms World Leather 2004
Ms Philadelphia Leather 2004

"Simply put, if you want a real femdom to love you, give her reasons to love you." Gloria Brame

(in reply to fergus)

Post #: 33

RE: Pagan, heathen, witch, Wiccan, Druid - 6/1/2006 10:28:10 AM

fergus

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*sigh* the Dianics are their own special breed.

Anyway, yes, they are in the majority over here, though there are still quite a lot of educated pagans of all varieties. At public fests, there is a better quality of education among attendees ... as the solitaries tend to stay ... well ... solitary.

I owe reasoning behind to the current state of Wicca and paganism in the US to two major sources. 1) Scott Cunningham's book on Solitary Wicca published in the late 80's? early 90's? (and the MANY books to follow). 2) The advent of the internet as a tool for isolated pagans to communicate. Again, it has been a double edged sword. I think the real problem is the vast amont of people coming into Wicca overwhelms the amount of qualified teachers, and that will take time to sort out. Also, again, newly converted pagans tend to be VERY independently minded, and VERY reactionary against religious teaching due to their bad past experiences with other faiths. Add "American" to that and now you have someone who REALLY won't listen ;) Since most COME INTO it as teens, add TEENAGER to that, now you have somone who won't listen and is just impossible to reason with ;)

By the way, for all the hardcore Gardnerians on the list, by admitting openly that you are Gardnerian Wiccans, and discussing policy and so forth ... you are in violation of several of the ardanes :P Go have your local HPS scourge you for the transgression! (j/k)

fergus

(in reply to RavenMuse)

Post #: 34

RE: Pagan, heathen, witch, Wiccan, Druid - 6/1/2006 10:29:38 AM

fergus

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Mis Pandora, would LOVE to, but I already go to the MPA Beltane (a god clean family event with lots of wee ones running about) and have a WONDERFUL time there :D

fergus

(in reply to fergus)

Post #: 35

RE: Pagan, heathen, witch, Wiccan, Druid - 6/1/2006 10:37:53 AM

IronBear

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Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
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Your probablt right fergus, I'd also add the plethora of DIY books on the market many of which are badly written copied of good teaching texts written by credable practitioners and the modern attitude of the youth of "I want it and I want it now!!!" many refuse to join recognised covens and dont want to be involved in a proven structured system.. I have many solitaries as friends and some of whome visit Clan O'Sliabh for rituals etc I refer to most of them as "Hedge Witches" who are all knowlegable in their own right. However many of the youngsters not onl;y refuse to seek teachers, but cast disparaging remarks uponthose who have done the hard yards.. Having been flamed of two Brisbane lists I almost shut my doors on the local pagan community some years ago and have now only just started toopen it again for those who do want to meet, talk and perhaps seek a place in a group...

_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

(in reply to fergus)

Post #: 36

RE: Pagan, heathen, witch, Wiccan, Druid - 6/1/2006 10:42:36 AM

fergus

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The first thing I teach my students is that most pagan authors are horrid ;)

That "I want it now" attitude os all pervasive these days, not just in spiritual circles. The good news is this! Most of these types, and the types that take up witchcraft as a fashion statement often quickley get bored and wander off. Often, the ones that stick it out are the read deal.

fergus

(in reply to IronBear)

Post #: 37

RE: Pagan, heathen, witch, Wiccan, Druid - 6/1/2006 11:04:23 AM

IronBear

Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
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I have a gut feeling fergus that you one hell of a teacher be.. Hats off to you..

_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

(in reply to fergus)

Post #: 38

RE: Pagan, heathen, witch, Wiccan, Druid - 6/1/2006 12:41:08 PM

pinkee

Posts: 487
Status: offline

i was raised as a Roman Catholic and am still devote. However, i have put in a call to my favorite priest, to explain/discuss why i am considering converting to Judaism. <My reasons are personal.>

Btw, i have not found a very good site on Judaism on the 'net and would prefer not to sound totally ignorant when i first speak to the Rabbi. Can A/anyone recommend a site? Thank Y/you.

pinkee

(in reply to IronBear)

Post #: 39

RE: Pagan, heathen, witch, Wiccan, Druid - 6/1/2006 12:54:28 PM

ArtCatDom

Posts: 478
Joined: 1/20/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: RavenMuse

quote:

ORIGINAL: ArtCatDom
Do him the courtesy of reading over his posts before jumping the gun. It's no grand secret that Gardner was a member of the OTO (at the least he was initiated into the group, I admit my knowledge of the extant of participation is lacking).

He also clearly admits the influence of Crowley on Gardner (and therefore obstensibly, Wicca):
http://www.collarchat.com/m_400296/mpage_1/key_/tm.htm#401111

*meow*

I did indeed read and it doesn't change the fact that whilst indeed there is an obvious influence he is incorrect in stating that the rede was worded without the harm none proviso in a Wiccan context.

Digging through my books and references, it would seem you are both correct in a sense. You are correct that as THE Rede, it is always presented as some variation of the couplet. However, it does seem that quite a few Wiccans (especially in the early years) expressed numerous variations of Crowley's maxim as a rede (or guideline or creed). (This latter phenomena seems to have peaked in the 60s in response to Valiente's good-natured comments about Crowley. It also seems to be related to many Wiccans of the time having other occult associations previous to and concurrent with their identification as Wiccans.)

Fascinating stuff.

I agree that Alumbrado's original post was misleading (having researched the matter more completely) in asserting it was a "latter day PR spin doctoring" to add "harm none".

I was familiar with a lot of Wiccan history, but I'd never really looked in depth into the Rede before. Thanks for spurring me to do so!

*meow*

(in reply to RavenMuse)

Post #: 40

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