RE: Sir or Master (Full Version)

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kalikshama -> RE: Sir or Master (1/22/2012 10:23:13 AM)

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OsideGirl -> RE: Sir or Master (1/22/2012 10:27:16 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LongFellow4U

First of all, I can til you have no true training as to what this lifestyle is about.

Every one starts as Submissive or as a Dominate under a mentor or trainer.

As a submissive train under a Mentor or a Master/Mistress.
when you have enough trust in your trainer you can be raised to the level of a slave.

As a Dominate you are trained to become a Mistress, if you are a woman and/or as a Master if you are a man.
Again when your training has brought you to the level of knowledge of how to use the equipment of out trade.

It is your Mentor or Trainer who tills you when you can be called a Master or a Mistress.

What happens is new people who fine this lifestyle, Name them self with out any training and end up hurting others by there like of knowledge. and here is where we get the title of New bee's or want to bee's



So every one who is living this life style and has never trained under a Mentor, needs to do so, no matter if you have been a so called master or mistress for a long time. you still need to learn from the old school Master's and Mistress's


NOTE: NO CAP'S are used for a untrained master or mistress. only after they are trained do they get the Cap's on the titles



Well, at least he knows the difference between a verb and an adjective. You cannot be a Dominate......



DaddySatyr -> RE: Sir or Master (1/22/2012 10:29:44 AM)

RS, you know I respect the heck out of you and dig you but, I want to address some things, here because this is a pretty spicy issue with a few different perspectives.

Now, I am not into the M/s lifestyle so my opinion may not be as valid as others but, here goes ...

quote:

ORIGINAL: ResidentSadist
"Sir" has always been a universally acceptable form of address for me.  It goes over well in both vanilla and BDSM crowds.  As others have said, it's not just a bdsm thing, it's a point of good manners and polite address.  My very nature and mannerisms inspire vanilla strangers to call me sir.  

Sir is not the title of a knight or baronet except when used as a such in conjunction with their name, like; "Sir Orimotis."  So when you simply address someone as sir, by definition it means "gentleman".  I am a gentleman, so I am very comfortable being addressed politely. 

If a dominant is uncomfortable being addressed politely and with respect, perhaps they need to examine their understanding of the the language?  If they understand the terms of respect and are uncomfortable being addressed in their station, a position of power , perhaps they need to reexamine their role?


I am uncomfortable in the context of our lifestyle with a submissive calling everyone "Sir" because it lessens the effect of the word when used to show esteem as opposed to courtesy. I am all for courtesy and I believe one of the problems in this world is that we have allowed basic courtesy to go by the wayside. Familiarity does, indeed, breed contempt.

In common usage, people often refer to me as "Sir" (It's weird. I put on a suit and people think I'm no longer a cretin). I have found that people that address me in this manner are generally well-mannered, anyway. I'll give another example:

If I have to call a company with whom I do business (I'm a consumer) or, even worse yet; when they call me and ask: "Is Michael _ _ _ _ _ _ _ there?" and I respond: "This is he", I frequently get: "Hi, Michael we were calling because ..." that drives me mad and my first thought is: "Are we friends?" Yes, I'm that anal-retentive about the way things used to be.

We've lost some of that because of the interwebs. Very few people are looking to put their last names out here and rightly so. Therefore, the old axiom that in polite company, we don't address people by first name until invited to do so has gone the way of all flesh.

I will say that when that phone caller says: "Well, Mr. _ _ _ _ _ _ _ we wanted to call because ..." I frequently thank them for being courteous and praise them for it and then, I tell them that they should feel free to call me "Michael".

Back to the context of our lifestyle: It does make me uncomfortable because a title, in this lifestyle is often self-gifted. While I believe that everyone is worthy of courtesy, I don't believe everyone is worthy of esteem (this is where the word "respect" becomes problematic for me).

I have had submissives/slaves that weren't mine tell me that they hold me in high esteem and want to address me as "Sir" to reflect that and, at that point, I have no issue with it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ResidentSadist
If a submissive is uncomfortable using common polite terms of address and titles, or thinks being polite and respectful is something someone has to earn, then it reflects on their general state of ill manners and shitty disposition.  If they are intent on paying respect in trade for a someone's behavior, like being polite was a reward for something... well, that's called training, not submission.


I whole-heartedly agree that we should address people as they wish to be addressed. That is the ultimate show of courtesy. I remember being fourteen or so and my mother's baby brother telling me: "Don't call me Uncle Paul. I don't want anyone as old as you are calling me 'Uncle' anything. Call me Paul." My mother was standing there and I froze. She shrugged and said: "If that's what he wants to be called, by doing so, you're showing him respect".

I have found that this has served me well in life. I have friends that are transgendered who wish to be called a name other than the one their parents gave them. That's fine and I am respecting their wishes by doing so. Not because I hold them in any sort of esteem necessarily (though I do) but because it is what they wish.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ResidentSadist
The title "Master" is not possessive.  He isn't "your" Master, you don't own him.  He owns you or someone else.  When ever I hear someone use the term "my Master", I know they don't have a clue.  Whether it is Master Orimotis in the BDSM world or Master Wu-ping the karate expert in the vanilla world, it is polite to call them by their title whether or not Master Orimotis is your owner or Master Wu-ping is your sensei.


I couldn't agree with you more about the possessive part. I stress that I have never espoused the M/s lifestyle but where does a slave come to own anything ? I won't say that anyone that does that doesn't have a clue but, it does make me question (privately) if that person really is as submissive as the title "slave" (which they probably gave to themself) would indicate.

Again, I think there's a difference here. Forgetting that I would never refer to anyone as "Master or Mistress", I may think "Master Giveittoherhard" (Hopefully a ficticious name) is a complete twat waffle and I will never bestow an honorific of their own creation on them.

By contrast, Master Wu-Ping probably studied for years under some organizational banner and was given that title to show his satisfactory completion of whatever "tests" the governing authority deemed relevent.

I have an uncle that's a PhD. I always intruduce him to people as: " ... my uncle, Dr. Robert _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ ..." It is then, his decision how he wishes that person to address him (He prefers "Bob" but he spells it, backwards, just to fuck with people).

quote:

ORIGINAL: ResidentSadist
Using titles - Would you refuse to acknowledge the Queen of England as a queen because she is not your queen?  What kind of pretzel logic can justify being rude to anyone in any lifestyle that has any title?


The Queen is a tough example because the only reason she holds that title is by virtue of (probably) being genetically spread thin. It's about "bloodlines and lineage" so, I don't know what to do with that but I can say that I refer to all American politicians, whether I agree with them or not by their title because it was bestowed upon them by a plurality of their constituants. Again, not someone just hanging a title on themself.

I will agree that I may be nit-picking a bit but, I think there is a difference between someone who has worked hard or excelled at something or shown great talent and someone who woke up one day and said: "Ya know, I want you people to call me 'Emperor Michael' because well, because."



Peace and comfort,



Grand Exhaulted Emporer Michael



OsideGirl -> RE: Sir or Master (1/22/2012 10:30:09 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama

When I was in the military, I called anyone who outranked me Sir (or Ma'am.)




I was reminded of this quote from Periscope Down:

Rear Admiral Yancy Graham: You watch yourself, Dodge. You are addressing a superior officer!
Lt. Comd. Dodge: No, merely a higher ranking one.



stef -> RE: Sir or Master (1/22/2012 10:56:41 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LongFellow4U

First of all, I can til you have no true training as to what this lifestyle is about.

Every one starts as Submissive or as a Dominate under a mentor or trainer.

As a submissive train under a Mentor or a Master/Mistress.
when you have enough trust in your trainer you can be raised to the level of a slave.

As a Dominate you are trained to become a Mistress, if you are a woman and/or as a Master if you are a man.
Again when your training has brought you to the level of knowledge of how to use the equipment of out trade.

It is your Mentor or Trainer who tills you when you can be called a Master or a Mistress.

What happens is new people who fine this lifestyle, Name them self with out any training and end up hurting others by there like of knowledge. and here is where we get the title of New bee's or want to bee's

So every one who is living this life style and has never trained under a Mentor, needs to do so, no matter if you have been a so called master or mistress for a long time. you still need to learn from the old school Master's and Mistress's

NOTE: NO CAP'S are used for a untrained master or mistress. only after they are trained do they get the Cap's on the titles


Wow.  What a wanktastic outpouring of gibberish. 



Ninebelowzero -> RE: Sir or Master (1/22/2012 11:03:33 AM)

Just my opinion but any one who calls themselves a dominate is a a tosspot..



Kana -> RE: Sir or Master (1/22/2012 11:13:07 AM)

She calls me Sir or Master alternatively-I don't really care as long as it's respectful.
Now me, I have names too-She's Property and I'm the Owner.

That simple.
No games. No shenanigans or fancy dancing with verbiage, just straight out.



BurntKitty -> RE: Sir or Master (1/22/2012 11:27:57 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LongFellow4U

First of all, I can til you have no true training as to what this lifestyle is about.

Every one starts as Submissive or as a Dominate under a mentor or trainer.

As a submissive train under a Mentor or a Master/Mistress.
when you have enough trust in your trainer you can be raised to the level of a slave.

As a Dominate you are trained to become a Mistress, if you are a woman and/or as a Master if you are a man.
Again when your training has brought you to the level of knowledge of how to use the equipment of out trade.

It is your Mentor or Trainer who tills you when you can be called a Master or a Mistress.

What happens is new people who fine this lifestyle, Name them self with out any training and end up hurting others by there like of knowledge. and here is where we get the title of New bee's or want to bee's



So every one who is living this life style and has never trained under a Mentor, needs to do so, no matter if you have been a so called master or mistress for a long time. you still need to learn from the old school Master's and Mistress's


NOTE: NO CAP'S are used for a untrained master or mistress. only after they are trained do they get the Cap's on the titles


Funniest load of crap I've read today. Thanks.

(Oh wait, you were serious????)



BurntKitty -> RE: Sir or Master (1/22/2012 11:35:36 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr


<snip>...
"Ya know, I want you people to call me 'Emperor Michael' because well, because."

Peace and comfort,

Grand Exhaulted Emporer Michael


Monitor clean up, stat! Thank you oh Exalted Emperor!



LillyoftheVally -> RE: Sir or Master (1/22/2012 11:42:41 AM)

I have found that different terms develop naturally in the relationship, my preference has never really come into it. My lovely partner does not like Master because it reminds him of Igor which is fair enough, if we use anything it is Sir but that is rare.

I don't call anyone on the scene anything to be honest. People don't call each other Sir or M'am here and it would look rather strange in local pubs during munches and the like, and also its a personal term for me.



poise -> RE: Sir or Master (1/22/2012 12:12:01 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

I will agree that I may be nit-picking a bit but, I think there is a difference between someone who has worked hard or excelled at something or shown great talent and someone who woke up one day and said: "Ya know, I want you people to call me 'Emperor Michael' because well, because."


Peace and comfort,



Grand Exhaulted Emporer Michael[/color]


Well, that didn't take long. [8D]



Epytropos -> RE: Sir or Master (1/22/2012 12:13:48 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ResidentSadist

Perhaps my age is showing.  It always rubs me the wrong way when I see the roots of BDSM fall into disuse.  Protocols respecting rank were at the heart of BDSM in its birth.  I'm sure you all know the old leathermen story about the military being the first homosexual experiences for many men and they took that military discipline (as in the D in BDSM) to heart when they took up leather upon their return home. 

So to me and many others familiar with the origins of BDSM, a large part of the D in BDSM stands for the discipline of rank and order which is displayed through protocols.  Those protocols involve addressing people of rank and station with respect and by their titles.  If you can't do that, you aren't into BDSM where I come from.  To me, seeing those protocols fall into disuse seems to fly in the face of what BDSM is.  It's like rewriting the constitution, many will be resistant to it.   

quote:

ORIGINAL: Epytropos
Honorifics are complex. They mean something different to everyone, and while there are "correct" definitions of each as RS touches on, they are in such disuse that attempting to use them properly will often lead to confusion in many circles. I used to be in the habit of using "sir" in conversation with my equals (such as they are) but it became tiresome to explain it so I've refrained.

For my bit, I let subs in the general population refer to me however they like (within reason, of course - I'll likely not respond to "cockmuffin" more than once or twice lol) with the exception that no one calls me Master without permission. All things being equal, I respond well to subs who use Sir on first contact, but I by no means demand it. It strikes me as a sign of natural submission and/or decent breeding, both of which I hold in high regard. So long as people show basic respect and comport themselves with dignity I'm quite flexible.

[edit: type-o]


I've been avoiding writing this post, but I see this same mistake made often enough that I'm going to correct it.

My reference to "'correct' definitions" was not intended to refer to the Leather movement, but rather to historical precedents in polite society. The leather movement was simply an incredibly overblown coopting of a much, much older practice. Mannerisms which harken to an older, more aristocratic time are a sign of polite traditionalism, and are a personal choice of patterns. Exclusionary adherence to a movement which was, itself, an abdication of propriety in favor of a self-defined and monopolistic hierarchy, conversely, is a sign of either A) being so desperate to seem special that one is willing to abdicate logic or B) a simple lack of breeding.

If you wish to adhere to those things, that is your concern, and I pass no judgment whatsoever on that, but the moment you begin to treat people as upstarts because their terminology and general demeanor don't adhere to an ideal invented very recently you've fallen into a veritable ocean of hubris and self-aggrandizement. Truthfully, even that same sort of slavish dedication (and more importantly intent to exclude those who do not as somehow inferior) as it is applied to much older social mores is a rather flawed mindset, being inherently the rejection of logic and embracing of the est ergo debeat fallacy, but it can at least shroud itself in traditionalism. Something which has existed for 60 years and is already dying is not traditional; it's a flash in the pan unique only in it's self-delusion.


Put simply: Leather is absurdly new, and the free-form inclusionary each-to-their-own methods are millenia older. If it pleases you to adhere to tradition, Leather is not the correct choice.

For my part, I'd rather see egalitarianism and free choice, but that is only my preference. Others may prefer to think of their way as "correct" at their leisure, but I am and will always be compelled to point out the illogic of that when they choose to impose those lessons on those who choose a different path. It is both unkind and impolite to voice such judgments, and frankly shows a lack of class which is (or should be) evident to a person of breeding. Your "protocols" are nothing more than a personal choice. Stick not thy nose into the business of others.



Focus50 -> RE: Sir or Master (1/22/2012 12:48:43 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: orimotis69

Ok, so I've been thinking about what people call themselves in the BDSM community. Titles like Mistress, Master, Goddess, Dom, etc. are used with in, I'm guessing, the private circles of the community. So, If I'm going to be a part of the BDSM community I may delve into this title business. OK, that's not the point. The point is I'm slightly uncomfortable being referred to as "Sir". The word is used when a sub/slave addresses a Dom, But the word "Master" is also used and I have no problem with that. Being addressed as Sir kinda reminds me of a knight being addressed as Sir. Knights were given this title by the King or Queen which in turn means Kings and Queens were "appointed" by god. Where as the word Master, at least in eastern culture, was given to someone that earned that title through skill and/or knowledge. My unease comes from when I was working with kids in after school programs. I would always tell the kids to refer to me as Mr.[my first name] instead of Mr.[my last name], which is more common.
So coming from this line of thought I pose two questions. Masters you can chime in too.

1. Do subs/slaves prefer to use the word Master or Sir?

2. What is your opinion on some people in the BDSM community using titles?


Even within the M/s relationships I've had, I've always loathed the thought of being addressed as "Master". It soooo does not suit my generally laid-back persona. The girl, and only my girl, calls me "Sir" when I'm taking charge or she can use my name when we're vanilla relaxing. Still, when it's just us, "Sir" tends to become a default pet name, anyway.

Re your questions:
1. I don't give my girl a preference - I tell her how it's to be.

2. Those who equip themselves with an over-endowed honourific tend to make me smile - in a pink pimp-mobile kinda way....

Focus.



Focus50 -> RE: Sir or Master (1/22/2012 1:04:49 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: orimotis69

Constitutions can be amended to change or get rid of old out dated rules.


I naturally assume you're excluding Americans and their pet guns, right?

Of course, that's a whole other shit storm of paranoia.... Hijack now ends.

Focus.



Focus50 -> RE: Sir or Master (1/22/2012 1:23:27 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

Summary: Sir is all good because it's a cultural thing here anyway. Master isn't something I'm comfortable with coming from a stranger but I let it slide instead of getting all huffy.

If a sub asks "What should I call you Sir?" I just give them my name.


As others have expressed, I get the cultural thing (Sir) just as I get the military requirement or even from the shop assistant when I'm a customer. It's "everyday", rendering it mundane etc.

But in my personal relationships, "Sir" becomes a combination of requirement and a personal intimacy reflecting our relationship dynamic. So it's not just the word but absolutely the context with which it's delivered.

And since I'll only accept it from *my* girl, there's nothing mundane about theintimacy of it...! So yeah, for any other sub, I give them my name, too.

Focus.



BKSir -> RE: Sir or Master (1/22/2012 1:31:58 PM)

I personally prefer to be called "Sir" to "Master", if they are talking to me directly. If my pet is referring to me to another, however, "Master" makes a little more sense than saying "He's my Sir." That just sounds a little silly. Now, unless that person is my pet, I prefer to not be called either. Unless someone is working for me, and at that point they refer to me as Chef, or is actually serving me, I have a name, and don't tend to hold people to honorifics. There's just no need, I have a name.



searching4mysir -> RE: Sir or Master (1/22/2012 1:34:35 PM)

FR

For us it depends on context and location.

In public/in front of family, he is either Sweetie, Honey, or his first name.

In private but not in play he is Daddy, Sweetie or Honey

In play he is Master or Sir


I'm either my first name, Baby, or Babydoll.



sunshinemiss -> RE: Sir or Master (1/22/2012 1:36:01 PM)

I rather like Allen.



peppermint -> RE: Sir or Master (1/22/2012 2:26:24 PM)

All this has reminded me that many years ago my one son called me "Old Hag."  However, he did it in such a way that Old Hag was actually an endearment. 



Jaquin -> RE: Sir or Master (1/22/2012 2:58:22 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: poise


quote:

ORIGINAL: LongFellow4U
Every one starts as Submissive or as a Dominate under a mentor or trainer.

As a Dominate you are trained to become a Mistress, if you are a woman and/or as a Master if you are a man. Again when your training has brought you to the level of knowledge of how to use the equipment of out trade.

NOTE: NO CAP'S are used for a untrained master or mistress. only after they are trained do they get the Cap's on the titles



I'm just curious...what level of training must one excel to in order to spell Dominant correctly?


Oh God I have to breath again eventually...

My face is all red from laughing.  Both at that guys post and your response.  Okay... breath...

On topic: I'm not owned just yet (dammit!) but there is one guy who I've been talking with for a while who I'd like it if he could own me.  And he likes me too, our only limitation is our distance (darn this internet crap) so we're holding off claiming we're in a relationship until one of us actually moves to be closer.  But I tend to slip a "Master" in there now and then and he likes that, we really don't care if it's not proper cause we're not in a relationship yet, or what others use it for.

We are - ourselves.  And that's that.  He likes me calling him Master that's what I'll call him regardless of other principles or 'training' (Like LongFellow seems to think is there) or how much we're not dating or something cause of our physical distance.



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