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Obediance training in dogs question - 1/25/2012 4:07:38 PM   
Toppingfrmbottom


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Status: offline 		This one site said that the typical 6 week courses in a group are not helpful in training dogs, because it doesn't, or shouldn't take 6 weeks to train the dog in sit ,stay, leave it, and loose leash skills etc etc, and in fact it only takes a few times to show the dog the act and if it won't do it in a few attempts * say 6 lessons*it won't ever do it. And that treat based or other bribary based training is an incorrect method, and that the dog simply wishing to please you and using your relationship with the dog, is the correct way t o go.

Now I don't believe that, or maybe I could be mis reading the information, but plenty of people do group obedience training classes,  with success , so what do you think?

quote:


How well your dog responds to you is directly proportional to your ability to engage him or her. Mostly, you engage your dog with your attitude which is reflected in your voice. Your voice alone should be enough to engage your dog.
If your dog does not focus on you, then you will probably not be able to engage your dog and get him to be calm or obey commands.




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RE: Obediance training in dogs question - 1/25/2012 4:29:21 PM   
RexDarcy


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From: Arizona
Status: offline 		Group training does help socialize a dog a little because the are around other people and other dogs; which is good. I have always trained My dogs Myself.

I don't use treat training only. I don't want any of My dogs expecting a food source in return for a food source. If adog trusts you and respects you, they will usually do as its told. Sometimes it takes more work but if you're patient, it should work out well.

I also like taking My dog to dog friendly places. Dog parks, over to a friends place if they have a well behaved dog, and some restaurants here have outside patios and allow dogs in that specified area.

Hope that helps.

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RE: Obediance training in dogs question - 1/25/2012 4:31:19 PM   
RexDarcy


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Status: offline 		Oops, correction. That above should read, 'receive a food source for obeying Me."

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RE: Obediance training in dogs question - 1/25/2012 4:37:20 PM   
Toppingfrmbottom


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Status: offline 		Rex, I do believe you can train with out treats , that part I am sure of.


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RE: Obediance training in dogs question - 1/25/2012 4:43:44 PM   
jennileigh8182


Posts: 173
Joined: 8/1/2009
Status: offline 		One of my professions is as a dog trainer.

I never use treats unless I have a very shy dog that I'm trying to get to relax, open up, and explore. I use very enthusiastic verbal praise as a reward, scratches and pats, etc. The one exception is teaching them to come to me when unleashed. In that situation, I use random reward treating...slot machine style.

As far as classes....I think the main benefit of classes is for the owner. It puts the owner in a different frame of mind and gives them confidence. It also allows a professional to correct common owner mistakes (like saying 'sit' 6 times without just making the dog do it). It can distract the dog in some cases, but i've met other dogs that honestly learn better by seeing another dog perform. I had one particular lab that, bless her monstrously sweet heart, could not figure out 'sit,' despite gentle physical guidance into the position while saying the word. However, upon watching another dog in class respond to the command, it seemed to 'click' for her.

Personally, i take my dogs to classes, despite being capable of doing it myself, because it forces me to dedicate time to working on basic manners.

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RE: Obediance training in dogs question - 1/25/2012 4:51:34 PM   
Duskypearls


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Status: offline 		TfB, While there are many different ways/opinions on dog training, I'm big on teaching people how to "engage" their dogs attention by teaching them dog psychology in their home, where everything begins and ends.

I agree with the quote you put up, for the most part. It is the intention, attitude, and clear "dog talk" signals given by the owner/handler that determines the outcome. By dog talk, I mean more along the lines of using your body, hands, and an occasional touch or sound ("ssshhhhttt") to direct or redirect the animal, to either do what you want them to do, or stop them from doing what you don't want them to do.

The most important thing is to understand pack behavior. There is only ONE alpha dog, and all must follow him/her. With the proper understanding, timing, and tools, the owner/handler establishes him/herself as that, which is the foundation of the relationship. (NOTE: I do NOT mean bullying, hitting, yelling in anger, frustration, fear, etc. I NEVER use words with an animal...only movements, "ssshhhtt", and the occasional light touch). Once the animal is correctly in a calm, submissive state, its desire is to follow instructions, and serve.

There are many mind states, i.e., fear, anxiety, excitement, nervousness, and aggression that are correctable with this method, and after that, obedience training becomes a cakewalk. It is all in knowing how to read, direct and redirect the animal.

Perhaps it would be worth investigating your area for those who do dog psychology, and have a few chats with them.

Also, watch a few episodes of The Dog Whisperer.

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RE: Obediance training in dogs question - 1/25/2012 5:03:25 PM   
DesFIP


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From: Apple County NY
Status: offline 		Classes are usually more beneficial to the owner then the dog. What I mean is that the class teaches the owner how to train the dog.

My brother had a shepherd, and when he went out of town, a friend who was a dog trainer would house sit for him. He got home and the dog was impeccably behaved. A couple of months went by and he didn't enforce rules, so the dog didn't bother to obey them either.

It certainly wasn't the dog's fault, but the owner. And although you can learn how to from a book, it's incredibly helpful to have a professional tell you what you're doing wrong and teach you the right way to do it.


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RE: Obediance training in dogs question - 1/25/2012 5:06:24 PM   
Toppingfrmbottom


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You want someone who can get your dog to obey your voice quickly without yelling, violence or bribing with food. Who wants a dog who doesn't listen unless you have treats?

Obedience is you asking your dog to do something and he does it because you say so, and not because the dog is going to get food or be punished.

Be forewarned, the words "Positive Reinforcement, Luring and Operant Conditioning." are code for bribing with food. Folks, don't waste your time and money on this nonsense and call us to learn how to train your dog fast without food or violent methods. The cruelest method is the one where the dog never gets trained and the dog no longer respects the owners and is biting people as a direct result of owners trying to train their dog with food. Then the dog has to be euthanized.

If you do not see dramatic results during the first lesson, you probably never will. Either it happens right away or it probably will not ever.

MYTHS EXPOSED

Classes are a good place to socialize your dog.

False It sounds good though. Dogs learn to socialize with each other when they are six to eight weeks old in the litter, the Critical Period. Aggression or fear very often gets much worse from well-meaning attempts to break this behavior in classes.

If you were scared of heights, would hanging you off the top of a tall building make you less or more fearful of falling? If you need to teach your dog good manners in public, remember the 3 phases of dog training--learning, correction, then distraction proofing. Classes have it backwards making it much much harder to train and socialize your dog.

Classes are a good place to teach your dog to behave around distractions.

False What classes have kids on razor scooters or families having picnics, real life distractions? If you want your dog to behave around kids on razor scooters, for example, you need to train your dog first, then introduce distractions.
C

lasses are NOT appropriate for...

Lady with dogs People who are easily embarrassed or have anxiety, professionals, business people, busy people, people on tight schedules, children, teenagers, the elderly, those who are frail or have disabilities, or IF YOU NEED RESULTS "NOW!"

For behavior problems, group classes are totally ineffective and often make problems worse.

Dogs often get stressed-out in classes and become withdrawn, depressed or aggressive.

If you have a small dog or a puppy, there is a good chance it will get attacked by a larger dog. People in classes often can't control their dogs, which often slip out of their collars and attack other dogs in class.

Don't take our word for it, go watch a class and see dogs lunging and snapping at each other!
Group classes have it backwards

Classes make dogs resistant to obedience by putting distraction first. The three phases of dog training are: #1 Learning, #2 Correction, AND THEN #3 Distraction. Classes often stress-out dogs and make them fearful or neurotic causing a host of undesirable behaviors at home such as self-mutilation and dominance.

PROBLEM: DOG OWNERS DO GET SPECIAL ATTENTION IN CLASSES

   The trainer may ask you to leave.
   Most people feel humiliated and embarrassed in classes and quit
   All the other people in class may stare at you like you are mean or clueless.
   You may be ignored and treated unfairly.

A trainer cannot solve problems in the home when she has never been there. People's perspective, or what they say, is often the exact opposite of what a trainer sees at the home. People do not connect certain things to problems. Trainers always need to to see what is going on at the home for themselves to end troubles.
What you want to look out for
3 Dogs

WHEN THEY SAY HOW LONG IT TAKES - It does not take a six weeks course to learn "sit", "down", "stay", "heel" and "come" on a leash. We teach all this and much more in one to three lessons, and teach off-leash training in 4 or 5 lessons!

The trainer should be able to get your dog to lay down during the first lesson. There is NO EXCUSE for not being able to do this, period. If it is a 140 pound Great Dane or a Shar-Pei that bites, a good trainer can get your dog to lay down the first lesson.

Don't endanger your dog or make it even more aggressive.



And this I may be reading out of context but he says, in regards to seperation anxiety,


The dogs with Separation Anxiety are in distress or worried, but inappropriately make it your problem. If your dog has this, you need to tell him or her, ""Go On" and get a life and get used to not being with Mommy constantly."

The dog doesn't need therapy or Prozac, it needs to "Go On" and get a life and do what you say. Why? Because you say so. Remember, this is obedience, "You need to look, think and feel what I tell you because I say so. I know what is best for you and you need to trust me. I insist."

Leadership is also the key to dog owners controlling their animal's instinct and genetics. You are not a leader, and only deluding yourself if you think you are, if your dog will not "Down" from 20 feet and "Stay" for 20 minutes (submissive) and "Heel" with the front paws at least 12 inches behind your feet (subordinate)


You can see the site for yourself here. http://www.doganswers.com/classes_body.html#wait

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RE: Obediance training in dogs question - 1/25/2012 5:10:45 PM   
jennileigh8182


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Status: offline 		The writer is somewhat of a twat.

Socialization happens well beyond 6-8 weeks of age. I've worked with rescue dogs that require months of slow, methodical socialization due to their past experiences.

In a good obedience class, your dog is NOT likely to be attacked. FFS...if the person's a professional, they are watching the dogs, seeing the cues, and they are intervening at the critical moment, which is BEFORE a dog even lunges. If a dog is already lunging or snapping, the correction is late.

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RE: Obediance training in dogs question - 1/25/2012 5:14:27 PM   
DesFIP


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Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline 		You know, I have anxiety and telling me to 'get a life' is not helpful.

What I'm seeing here is someone who wants you to pay out large amounts of money for one on one in home sessions and is scaring people into doing so.

Now, obviously a dog shouldn't always get a treat, but in the beginning to help them make the connection between the order and the action? There's no harm in it if it also receives praise at the same time. Because over time you won't need to use the treats constantly and you can reduce the amount of praise.

But I didn't tell my kids to get a life when they had separation anxiety. I did give them the reassurance they needed and slowly taught them not to be afraid. I helped them feel comfortable on their own, and with others. I also praised them when they learned a new skill, such as potty training and reduced the praise as they got more competent.


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RE: Obediance training in dogs question - 1/25/2012 5:14:56 PM   
jennileigh8182


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Status: offline 		Let me add, since I posted too quickly, and just looked at the site:

In-home trainers generally charge much more than trainers that lead classes. This site is for a particular trainer/organization, and that's their goal...to sell in-home training.

Behavior problems can sometimes be settled in class, sometimes not. It depends on the behavior. Most behavior problems are sorted out by the dog realizing who's in charge and being given some real direction...which a class will provide. If, however, it's an aggression issue or a severe behavioral problem, then yes, a trainer should be where the problem behavior happens and address it there.

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RE: Obediance training in dogs question - 1/25/2012 5:19:27 PM   
Toppingfrmbottom


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Status: offline 		The writer does seem pretty pompous, I am reading other articles and the writer insists, if I am reading it right,  that if trainers don't have a bunch of pics of dogs lounging around in sit stay heel, looking happy , relaxed and obedient,  and stuff to show off thats  probabably because they're not training their dogs right.

quote:

Regardless of what they tell you, Food-Bribery training never works to solve behavioral problems. If their training worked, Petco would have hundreds of photos of dogs trained off-leash like Superdog. So would our other competitors. Most dog trainers and behaviorists have virtually no photos of trained dogs to substantiate their competence. Superdog has thousands of pictures with hundreds of trained dogs we trained. Being a nice person, loving dogs and having people say nice things about you is different than having thousands of photos of hundreds of dogs you trained to substantiate your competency as a dog trainer. It is unexcusable that a dog trainer should offer references from friends as a substitute for photography to prove their training actually works.
quote:

ORIGINAL: jennileigh8182

The writer is somewhat of a twat.




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RE: Obediance training in dogs question - 1/25/2012 5:26:35 PM   
Toppingfrmbottom


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Status: offline 		I'm looking to train her in almost 100 percent accuracy recall, like no matter what I call she comes, stay with reliable accuracy, for as long as it takes, and I need her to learn to move when told to, because when she's parked comfy in bed, that dog will not move over or get down if you ask with out manually forcing her to.


Oh and also I am looking to train her in Perimeter training, Perimeter training is where you teach the dog not to cross a line unless you release the dog to do so.
It'd be great if she could eventually do good k9 citizen classes and go into nursing homes an stuff.

< Message edited by Toppingfrmbottom -- 1/25/2012 5:31:18 PM >

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RE: Obediance training in dogs question - 1/25/2012 5:29:34 PM   
jennileigh8182


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Status: offline 		This site gets worse and worse. I looked under Aggression Training. Do you know WHY stray dogs (or dogs you don't know) bite extremities? Because people are more inclined to put a hand toward a dog they don't know than let it close to their trunk. Do you know why owned dogs bite faces? Because their owners let them into that space. Christ, it's nothing mystical or special. Notice that they say nothing about how they WOULD deal with aggression, just that everyone else does it wrong.

Further....stating that they can train "any dog, no matter how dangerous"...is simply ridiculous and foolhardy. Some dogs have mental imbalances or have been so psychologically damaged that something has 'broken' for them and 'normal' behavior is not possible. Granted, that is not the norm, but it does happen.

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RE: Obediance training in dogs question - 1/25/2012 5:37:03 PM   
Toppingfrmbottom


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Status: offline 		wow, that's a cocky answer

Q: Do you have references? [LEFT]These dogs in the pictures are our references.[/LEFT]


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RE: Obediance training in dogs question - 1/25/2012 5:39:56 PM   
jennileigh8182


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Toppingfrmbottom

I'm looking to train her in almost 100 percent accuracy recall, like no matter what I call she comes, stay with reliable accuracy, for as long as it takes, and I need her to learn to move when told to, because when she's parked comfy in bed, that dog will not move over or get down if you ask with out manually forcing her to.



For this, a large part of that is becoming the boss. Teaching her that you have expectations and you WILL be obeyed. If they dog knows what the command means, you give it once...and then there's consequences if it's not obeyed. If it doesn't know the command, you show it what you want while speaking the command, then praise heavily. As far as recall, i like random reward training. Initially, they get a small treat every time they come...when they come without hesitation, the treats become less frequent, but with no pattern.

If it's a really hard-headed dog, or you're working in situations with high temptation, like field dogs, remote trainers are valuable tools.......IF USED CORRECTLY!!! They're very dangerous in the hands of someone that doesn't know how to use them.


quote:


Oh and also I am looking to train her in Perimeter training, Perimeter training is where you teach the dog not to cross a line unless you release the dog to do so.
It'd be great if she could eventually do good k9 citizen classes and go into nursing homes an stuff.



I never trust perimeter training to be fool-proof. Dogs will get distracted, and they will figure out that if you aren't out there....you don't know. It only takes one time of following a scent, not paying attention to where they are, and running afoul of a vehicle.

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RE: Obediance training in dogs question - 1/25/2012 5:52:27 PM   
Toppingfrmbottom


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Status: offline 		My dad had both our last dogs trained they never went into the garden with out his permission, even if the gate was open,  and when they did get invited in , not to bother or make a fuss with the other dogs, since our back yard gate is the front yard gate of the person behind us. I expect her to stay out of the kitchen, she does that pretty well,  and not to squeeze herself through the gate between the  main yard and the chicken yard. She only does that mostly if I am back there, and she wants to find me, but she likes to now and then go back there when I let her out un attended for yard time.


What consequence would you give for the dog not listening? 
quote:

ORIGINAL: jennileigh8182


quote:

ORIGINAL: Toppingfrmbottom

I'm looking to train her in almost 100 percent accuracy recall, like no matter what I call she comes, stay with reliable accuracy, for as long as it takes, and I need her to learn to move when told to, because when she's parked comfy in bed, that dog will not move over or get down if you ask with out manually forcing her to.



For this, a large part of that is becoming the boss. Teaching her that you have expectations and you WILL be obeyed. If they dog knows what the command means, you give it once...and then there's consequences if it's not obeyed. If it doesn't know the command, you show it what you want while speaking the command, then praise heavily. As far as recall, i like random reward training. Initially, they get a small treat every time they come...when they come without hesitation, the treats become less frequent, but with no pattern.

If it's a really hard-headed dog, or you're working in situations with high temptation, like field dogs, remote trainers are valuable tools.......IF USED CORRECTLY!!! They're very dangerous in the hands of someone that doesn't know how to use them.


quote:


Oh and also I am looking to train her in Perimeter training, Perimeter training is where you teach the dog not to cross a line unless you release the dog to do so.
It'd be great if she could eventually do good k9 citizen classes and go into nursing homes an stuff.



I never trust perimeter training to be fool-proof. Dogs will get distracted, and they will figure out that if you aren't out there....you don't know. It only takes one time of following a scent, not paying attention to where they are, and running afoul of a vehicle.


< Message edited by Toppingfrmbottom -- 1/25/2012 6:26:42 PM >

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RE: Obediance training in dogs question - 1/25/2012 6:07:52 PM   
jennileigh8182


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Status: offline 		It really depends on the dog and how they react to it and what the issues is that they're not listening to.

For some, a sharp, firm "No!" is enough to halt problem behaviors like jumping or nipping. For other dogs or circumstances, I like slip-chains. (please don't call it a choke-chain in my presence) When I'm working on home behavior issues, the dog wears a leash in the house, connected to its slip chain. If my command isn't heeded, they get a "pop." You can do it with a flat collar as well if you're good, but you have to have the knack of it down. A collar 'pop' should be a very quick, very brief, but very decisive tightening and then releasing of the collar. This is where I advocate classes, or working with a pro trainer, because it can take some practice to get down how to effectively "pop" a collar. It should never actually cut off air supply, it should never be vicious, it should be as quick, natural, and harmless as a mother dog nipping her pup as a scolding. Depending on the dog, sometimes they get a day of this leash-dragging, sometimes they get longer.

If it's an issue of the dog won't move off furniture when told...furniture rights are revoked, period. Humans get the furniture, dogs get the floor until the dogs realize humans have first priority. If the dog won't move when people want to walk through an area, I make a point that I frequently want to walk through their area until they realize that they move for me, not the other way around. In every interaction we have, I am the leader...always and completely. If I have a very laid back dog that minds well without much trouble, I'm more lax, but if they're more difficult and frequently vying for dominance? I don't give an inch. It's my way. Every. Single. Time.

Consistency is the core of it. You have to know how your dog responds. Some are so sensitive that you can't be overly harsh, others are manipulative. But always be consistent.

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RE: Obediance training in dogs question - 1/25/2012 6:25:21 PM   
Toppingfrmbottom


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Status: offline 		Calley seems very sensitive, it doesn't take more than a sharp word and she's falling all over herself to correct most issues, like when she comes into the kitchen and she knows she's not supposed to. When I see her I go aught aught, no! and she backs up immediatly.

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RE: Obediance training in dogs question - 1/25/2012 6:34:49 PM   
jennileigh8182


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Status: offline 		With that type, I can sometimes just get away with a sound. I use a lot of sounds rather than words, because when we use words, we subconsciously expect the word to be understood, when it generally isn't by an animal. For a highly sensitive one like that, I'd focus more on praise after they corrected the behavior or did as I commanded. Lots of love, lots of happiness, lots of encouragement. When they aren't behaving, they don't get that special attention.

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