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RE: Murderer and Rapist gets death penalty - 1/29/2012 8:18:21 AM   
barelynangel


Posts: 6233
Status: offline 		lol mike you have said that about EVERY argument i or others make about the death penalty.   And where did i say i don't care about the few innocent that get executed?  I said i DON'T advocate not guilty people being executed.  However, i don't believe the FEW every decade or more who are is a reason to abolish the death penalty.  To me, YOUR STANCE is you don't give a fuck about the murdered victims of these people who ARE guilty of the crime becuase you want to coddle them and not execute them.  So while you may think you are Mr. politically correct do gooder cause well gee what about the few not guilty people who die every couple DECADES because they were found guilty of a crime they didn't commit.  Well that's unfortunate and horrible, but in the end, its the SYSTEM, not the consequence that needs fixing.

Yeah, you can call me a cold blooded bitch Mike, I'm okay with that. Why, because i have seen the faces of murder victimes when they are still at the scene, i have seen all scene photos of the victim, i have worked closely with the families and friends of the victims and i have been the one who can't answer their questions of why someone could DO something like this.  I BELIEVE in this consequence.   I DO think its necessary, not because of revenge or blood lust but because i believe it to be a CONSEQUENCE of the actions of someone who murders someone.  So if that makes me a cold hblooded bitch, i'm okay with that.

Got Steel i was being low deliberately.  People don't want to believe 10s of 1000s of people are murdered every year versus the few believed to be innocent or perhaps shown to be innocent people executed in decades.  I mean hell they have a coniption regarding a FEW people being executed over decades, imagine their horror, shock and melt downs over how many people are actually murdered every year -- oh wait, they don't really care about those people.

Finally, Owner, out for revenge and blood lust?  Umm no, for me it is simply the follow-through as to the consequences of their actions.  The death penalty isn't some secret consequence that murders no nothing about.   It's there straight forward and real.  How is it we are out for revenge and blood lust when we support the death penalty which is on the books and a known consequence?  To me its the responsibility of the State to follow through on the consequences when a jury find and pretty much sentences a peer to death for the crimes they have determined that person committed.

I just love when people act like people who support the death penalty are in it because they like seeing someone die or revenge and blood lust -- talk about being dramatic.  For me and others its very simple, its the consequence of the crime committed - A KNOWN CONSEQUENCE.  If people didn't want to face it then they shouldn't do the crime.  What's the addage, if you don't want to do the time, don't do the crime.    But people do and then its the ohhh the death penalty is sooo mean.

To me, if people were more for people dealing with the consequences of their actions, maybe just maybe our society wouldn't be riddled with murders every year.   But i guess it's easier to make excuses than force people to take responsibility and the KNOWN consequences of their crimes.

angel

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(in reply to tazzygirl)
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RE: Murderer and Rapist gets death penalty - 1/29/2012 8:29:58 AM   
SilverBoat


Posts: 257
Joined: 7/26/2006
Status: offline 		FR

A heck of a discussion, all of y'all ... If I had the spare time and attention span to quote and applaud half the thoughtful comments as they deserve, I'd be here until next week.

I don't know if this idea has been posted here, but there should be a sentence of  "Death Imprisoned" in which the condemned can choose to be executed, but there's no parole, no medical treatment (other than pallitive perhaps), and no socialization. Put 'em in a cell with a window, a water-tap and a waste-hole, lock the door, and pass in food, pen and paper, maybe a book at a time, and only take 'em out for execution or burial. Or if somehow they're proven innocent.

And with regard to crime, punishment, deterrent, etc: One of the 'points' of punishment is to modify behavior, both of the criminal and potential criminals, by imposing unwanted, unpleasant, etc physical circumstances on the convicted, with the intent of modifying their mental processes. With recidivism rates at 50+%, it's rather obvious that current punishments aren't consistently effective. Maybe there should be a return to public floggings, canings, etc?

The problem of wrongful convictions, due either to error, ignorance or malice, is a difficult matter, and often the 'local' biases, conflicts, and so forth have much to do with those. But making the entire criminal-justice system nationwide seems problematic too ...

SB

(in reply to jlf1961)
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RE: Murderer and Rapist gets death penalty - 1/29/2012 9:01:38 AM   
barelynangel


Posts: 6233
Status: offline 		laughs, that's it Mike, please be over dramatic grins and name calling is very mature - feel better?   As i said, you can call me a cold assed bitch now, i am okay with that.    

The thing is Mike, yeah i am cold about the death penalty and i have no qualms about it.   The difference between you and I Mike is i have been at the scene of a murder - meaning i have SEEN the murdered victim in many different scenes where they are left sometimes like trash or by looking at them you see the horror they had when they were finally killed, i have seen all the pictures and heard all the statements, i have seen confessions and i have seen the eyes of those who would murder again in a second because they simply don't give a damn, i have held victims' families in my arms as they cried or have been stone cold with disbelief or shock as they look at the person who killed their loved one, or just trying to hold it together as they sit an listen to the whole thing in court, or felt their belief that justice has been served when someone was found guilty.   Yeah, i am a cold blooded bitch in this aspect and i am okay with that.

It's not about blood lust Mike, but you can try and make it about that, its about consequences.  I believe in consequences for crimes and one of those consequences i believe in is the death penalty.  Look up the word consequences Mike and then try to look up holding people responsible.  You may learn something enough to stop making excuses for them.

angel


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What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.
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(in reply to slvemike4u)
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RE: Murderer and Rapist gets death penalty - 1/29/2012 9:08:45 AM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline 		And it isn't about looking into the eyes of an innocent man condemned to a death sentence either is it angel ? While we are at it let us throw away that whole "better a hundred guilty men go free than one innocent man suffer a jail sentence "thing right?
What is the consequence of executing an innocent man/woman(by the way,we as a country don't really do that very often do we,second only to executing white men eh?)?

< Message edited by slvemike4u -- 1/29/2012 9:09:27 AM >

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RE: Murderer and Rapist gets death penalty - 1/29/2012 9:09:28 AM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline 		Not sure that intellectual laziness and amorality come off as a strong points.


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RE: Murderer and Rapist gets death penalty - 1/29/2012 9:10:32 AM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline 		Neither am I,and that was my original(this go around anyway) objection to her initial post in this here thread .

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If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


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RE: Murderer and Rapist gets death penalty - 1/29/2012 9:37:18 AM   
barelynangel


Posts: 6233
Status: offline 		Mike, lol when have YOU ever looked into the eyes of an innocent man when condemned??  Hell when have you ever looked into the eyes of a cold blooded killer?  Something tells me never in either case.  Have i looked into the eyes of someone innocent -- nope, not yet. 

i don't believe in the better 100 guilty go free concept.  So your presumption i do, is where you err.  To me, everytime a killer is let off because of your presumption of 100 guilty go free and he kills, to me, that is the fault of the system.  But -- your enjoyment of that shows how lacking in feeling you have for VICTIMS of murderers.  So i guess it all depends on how you look at it Mike -- you claim i am a cold assed bitch because i am not demanding the abolishing of the death penalty because of a few every few decades people being executed who MAY have been innocent of the crime (however, yo do disregard i believe the system needs revamping) and I claim the victims of murder, of which there are 10s of 1000s of every year who are my concern and i believe in consequences and responsibility, where the death penalty is an appropriate consequence.

It's amusing to see you believe because of the few every few decades, i am a cold hearted bitch, but you ignore the very fact that my concern is for the victims of murder of which there are 1000s of every year.    But yeah, i am just a cold hearted bitch lol.

angel


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What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.
R.W. Emerson


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RE: Murderer and Rapist gets death penalty - 1/29/2012 9:42:04 AM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline 		Somehow your "concern" for the victims does not impress me in the least,that's okay though seeing as you,yourself never impressed me in any way shape or form.I'm done going round and round on this with you.You know how I feel about it,and I know how you don't feel about it.
So let's just agree to disagree on this and move along.

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


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RE: Murderer and Rapist gets death penalty - 1/29/2012 9:58:39 AM   
Iamsemisweet


Posts: 3651
Joined: 4/9/2011
From: The Great Northwest, USA
Status: offline 		I think you misunderstand my objection. I don't feel bad for the "poor lil prisoners", as you put it. I believe that the justice system is irrevocably broken, and shouldn't be trusted with people's lives. I didn't necessarily believe that Lewis was innocent, I just couldn't believe the courts were not willing to reexamine the case in light of significant new information. That kind of precedent makes it more likely innocent people will be executed.
quote:

ORIGINAL: barelynangel

Maybe if people sooo concerned about the death penalty would instead of worrying about the death penalty put that effort into working to stop the crimes of which the death penalty is a sentence, imagine this -- a society that has the death penalty but it is soo rarely used because the citizens were more worried about correcting the crimes that constituted the death penalty, so the death penalty while viable wasn't needed.

Imagine that -- worrying about the crimes committed rather than the sentence.  But i guess its easier to be concerned about a VERY FEW select innocents over the course of decades than the 1000s of innocents every year who are murdered many times very heinously.  It's easier to whinge and moan about this because of the media hype it draws -- instead of the 1000s of murders a year we never hear about because its such a common occurance in our society.

I would really love to know what those opposed to the death penalty are doing to put a stop to the crimes of which the death penalty is a sentence.

Amazing concept yes?  Instead of stopping the sentence, you stop the crime for which that sentence can be carried out.   That's just too hard though.


I find it ironic that the trend of stopping the death penalty stopped because of this one crime.  I bet if you look on the books of that state -- you could find like crimes that have existed.  The fact is, this is a media hype.   I fully believe this man should be executed, but then again, i think most murders should hold the sentence of death as well as murders shouldn't be pled down to avoid the death penatly possibility.

Personally, i also think the hype about poor lil prisoners being put to death when in pain etc is a bunch of BS. 

angel
angel




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The Cat: Oh, you can't help that. We're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.
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RE: Murderer and Rapist gets death penalty - 1/29/2012 10:08:33 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
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From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: barelynangel

lol mike you have said that about EVERY argument i or others make about the death penalty.   And where did i say i don't care about the few innocent that get executed?  I said i DON'T advocate not guilty people being executed.  However, i don't believe the FEW every decade or more who are is a reason to abolish the death penalty. 

Do you volunteer the person you love most in the world to be the next innocent convicted of a crime they didn't commit and then executed? If not why not? If its all right for an innocent to be murdered by the state why isn't it ok when its someone you care about?

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RE: Murderer and Rapist gets death penalty - 1/29/2012 10:33:30 AM   
barelynangel


Posts: 6233
Status: offline 		The one i love most in the world hasn't been arrested for a crime.  People don't volunteer for this they are unfortunate victims of the system and i have not stated otherwise.     You people keep trying to put words in my mouth and that is why this argument is never functional with you all -- you put words in people's mouths.  I have said OVER AND OVER, i don't ADVOCATE the execution of people innocent of the crime they were condemned for.   I don't know HOW CLEARER i can be as i say it the same as you all.  HOWEVER< what i also say is simply, a FEW innocents being executed over the course of decades doesn't sway me to abolish the death penalty.

THERE IS ALWAYS a possibility that someone i love could very well be in a situation of being executed for a crime they didn't commit if they were arrested for same --- however, that STILL doesn't sway me to abolish the death penalty.  However, the fact this is possible DOES have me looking to change the SYSTEM in and of itself, which i have always advocated and worked towards since being a part of the system.

So your question is redundant and moot.  And silly. 

But taking a page from your book, do you volunteer the person you love most in the world to be the next innocent murder victim of a murderer who is guilty of the crime, especially if that person has already been convicted ofa murder?

I mean come on DomKen, throwing out silly concepts such as VOLUNTEERING someone i love to be found guilty of a crime they didn't commit is beyond ridiculous.   As i said, you can use the same question for someone being murdered.

But i can state clearly, i know someone who has been murdered -- actually 2 people if you count the fetus she was carrying at the time.  I also personally know 2 people who have murdered people.  I also have worked in the prosecutor's office and by default got to know murder victims and those left behind through some of the worst days of their lives.  So unlike many people who look at this death penalty from a safe distance away -- i have been up close and personal from many sides of it.  So my beliefs are based more on hands on views than simply observation which most people luckily have.

You can ask me all kinds of redundant questions, and my answer will remain -- I BELIEVE in the death penalty.  I believe our system is flawed and needs correcting to stop the executions of innocents, i don't advocate innocents being executed but i believe in the death penalty enough to say their deaths are not enough for me to change my views on the death penalty, and i believe our society needs changing where murders DO shock people more or as much as a condemned person innocent of the crime.

Perhaps if you all stop trying to see what i am saying as i advocate the execution of innocents, you may stop being so blind as to what i am saying.  But that's on you.  If its easier to see me as a cold blooded bitch, so be it.

angel



_____________________________


What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.
R.W. Emerson


(in reply to DomKen)
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RE: Murderer and Rapist gets death penalty - 1/29/2012 11:05:34 AM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline 		No what YOU DO say though is tantamount to......"it's just the cost of doing business"
How,with an attitude like that,you have the nerve to talk about looking in to the eyes of family members of victims is beyond me.
But as long as you can sleep at night ,it's all good.Keep deluding yourself that you actually have a heart sweetie

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


(in reply to barelynangel)
Profile   Post #: 72
RE: Murderer and Rapist gets death penalty - 1/29/2012 11:23:57 AM   
Iamsemisweet


Posts: 3651
Joined: 4/9/2011
From: The Great Northwest, USA
Status: offline 		So why not halt the DP, fix the system, and then reinstate it? If you are poor and black, you get appointed counsel of dubious quality who get paid a pittance to defend you, and lose more money the more time they put in your case. If you are rich, you get high powered, high priced counsel you pay a lot for. In other words, the system is stacked against the poor. Start by fixing that.
quote:

ORIGINAL: barelynangel


  I believe our system is flawed and needs correcting to stop the executions of innocents, i don't advocate innocents being executed but i believe in the death penalty enough to say their deaths are not enough for me to change my views on the death penalty, and i believe our society needs changing where murders DO shock people more or as much as a condemned person innocent of the crime.

Perhaps if you all stop trying to see what i am saying as i advocate the execution of innocents, you may stop being so blind as to what i am saying.  But that's on you.  If its easier to see me as a cold blooded bitch, so be it.

angel




_____________________________

Alice: But I don't want to go among mad people.
The Cat: Oh, you can't help that. We're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.
Alice: How do you know I'm mad?
The Cat: You must be. Or you wouldn't have come here.

(in reply to barelynangel)
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RE: Murderer and Rapist gets death penalty - 1/29/2012 12:03:15 PM   
jlf1961


Posts: 14840
Joined: 6/10/2008
From: Somewhere Texas
Status: offline 		As of April 1, 2011, there were 3138 inmates on death row in the United States.  The state with the most on death row is California with 717, followed by Florida, Texas, Pennsylvania, Alabama.  There are 37 states with inmates on death row.

Six states have the death penalty for crimes other than murder, all of which involves the rape or sexual molestation of a child under 14, except for Georgia, where the child has to be under the age of 10.

The USMJ allows for the death penalty for a crime other than murder involving the rape of a child.

The death penalty is only sought in crimes of such a nature that they are in a category to themselves or involve the murder of a police officer.

And, contrary to what was said in this thread, there are some crimes that carry a mandatory death penalty in some states, which means there is no penalty phase where the jury deliberates on the penalty or the judge has a choice of punishments, that is where the flaw is in the system, not the death penalty itself.


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(in reply to Iamsemisweet)
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RE: Murderer and Rapist gets death penalty - 1/29/2012 12:23:09 PM   
JstAnotherSub


Posts: 6174
Status: offline 		My lovely state of Georgia also will not put to death anyone who beat a 4'11", 63 yo woman to death with a hammer, if the aforementioned murderers happen to be a few days short of their 17th birthday when they commit the crime.

IMHO, we have many ways now to be positive that someone is guilty of murder.  When we are 100% sure of it, they should be refused any more of the oxygen others breathe.




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RE: Murderer and Rapist gets death penalty - 1/29/2012 12:25:20 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
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quote:

Tazzy that just isn't fair,most of those getting "wasted" never take the time to consider the consequences.


And that excuses them? Because they "never take the time"?

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RE: Murderer and Rapist gets death penalty - 1/29/2012 12:26:34 PM   
barelynangel


Posts: 6233
Status: offline 		Iamsemisweet Because i don't see the death penalty as being the problem.  Why fight for something i don't see as being the issue.  And i also don't see the same issues in our legal system you do lol.  My concern isn't for the suspect, it is i believe we need harsher penalties, less resort type of prison life, less excuse making etc.  I do believe with tech our system is becoming more precise at identifying suspects but in the end, its still in the hands of 12 people who simply observe the show.  I will let people like you worry about the suspects and who is getting what type of defense.  That is why there are people like you and people like me.  You work for one thing, if you do, and i work on another aspect, which i do.

By your logic we should stop ALL consequences of crimes because well gee some people may be innocent of the crime and some of them are mean, especially if its against a minority.    

grins, Mike, i sleep great. 

angel


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What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.
R.W. Emerson


(in reply to Iamsemisweet)
Profile   Post #: 77
RE: Murderer and Rapist gets death penalty - 1/29/2012 12:55:01 PM   
Iamsemisweet


Posts: 3651
Joined: 4/9/2011
From: The Great Northwest, USA
Status: offline 		see, I was taking you seriously until right there. I have noticed that your argument style is like that of a third grader, in this and virtually every other topic, with the possible exception of Gor. I hope I presented a better argument for the death penalty, when I use to argue that side. I guess I will just leave it by saying that you are certainly on the right side of the pendulum, so good on you. If you work for a prosecutor's office, then you should know that it is not the prosecutor's job to avenge the victim. The prosectors work for the government, and are supposed to represent the state

The logical fallacy of the argument below inn't worth addressing. No wonder so many people groan when you post on a topic.
quote:

ORIGINAL: barelynangel

Iamsemisweet eve with tech

By your logic we should stop ALL consequences of crimes because well gee some people may be innocent of the crime and some of them are mean, especially if its against a minority.    

grins, Mike, i sleep great. 

angel



_____________________________

Alice: But I don't want to go among mad people.
The Cat: Oh, you can't help that. We're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.
Alice: How do you know I'm mad?
The Cat: You must be. Or you wouldn't have come here.

(in reply to barelynangel)
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RE: Murderer and Rapist gets death penalty - 1/29/2012 1:08:46 PM   
tweakabelle


Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline
quote:

My concern isn't for the suspect, it is i believe we need harsher penalties, less resort type of prison life, less excuse making etc.


At the risk of straying off-topic, this seems to encapsulate what is wrong with this discussion IMHO.

No one has mentioned that the imprisonment rate in the US is up to 7 times worse than in comparable Western countries. No one has mentioned the numbers of prisoners in the US is counted in the millions. No one has mentioned that the murder rate in the US is many times that of comparable Western countries. No one is asking why crime levels are so shocking there.

So why does the US have such a shockingly high crime rate? This strikes me as a far more important question than the issue of the death penalty if one is serious about addressing crime. It must be clear to the most visually-challenged person out there that the current response to crime - high rates of imprisonment, harsher sentencing and the use of the death penalty - isn't delivering reductions in crime. More of the same can only deliver more failure.

"When you've got nothing you've got nothing to lose" sang Bob Dylan. Is the first place to look for answers to this question that the US has such a pathetic social safety net compared to other Western countries? What significance should be attached to the fact that c80% of prisoners are serving time for drug-related crimes?

Considering questions like these could prove far more productive than discussing the fictitious merits and obvious demerits of moribund primitive policies that the rest of the civilised world abandoned decades ago.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 1/29/2012 1:12:13 PM >

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RE: Murderer and Rapist gets death penalty - 1/29/2012 1:19:57 PM   
barelynangel


Posts: 6233
Status: offline 		Tweakabelle,

"It must be clear to the most visually-challenged person out there that the current response to crime - high rates of imprisonment, harsher sentencing and the use of the death penalty - isn't delivering reductions in crime."

Umm we don't have harsher sentencing and the death penalty use in this country is a joke.  Prison is something some people attempt to REENTER in our country so they have 3 squares and a roof over their head and free medical care.   If our prison system was as bad as you think it is in terms of consequences we would have LESS re-offenders instead of people getting slammed with the 3 strikes law all over the place. 

Our prison system is a joke because of a concept of prisoner's RIGHTS, which in many cases gives our prisoner's better standard of living than many people in the U.S.   Which is why i don't believe in taking away the death penalty, but i do believe in revamping the system to where our prisons are less acceptable to prisoners so they won't want to go back or care if they go back. 

I said back when i first posted we needed to look at lowering the crime rate and instead of agreeing with that people here were all pissy because i want to keep the death penalty around.  YES, my concern is for the victims of murder and wanting to bring that down than worrying about a select few every couple decades who may be executed but innocent of the crime.  But no one wants to worry about lowering the crime rate and murders when they can worry about ending the death penalty.

I fully believe we need to put prisoners (especially non-violent, drug related, robbery etc) to work for the community rather than leaving them in the prisons.  I see nothing wrong with chain gangs again or out of prison work details for things the state needs done.  I think probation needs to be a lot stricter and harsher to keep these first time offenders especially with drugs out of the prisons which only enforces their addiction in many areas anyway.

The problem is people think our prison system is "harsh" it is not, its a joke, one where people who have been incarcerated don't strive to stop the behavior that put them there in the first place. 

angel

_____________________________


What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.
R.W. Emerson


(in reply to barelynangel)
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