RE: Safe Word? (Full Version)

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DesFIP -> RE: Safe Word? (2/26/2012 8:57:07 AM)

The problem with viewing someone as using a safe word for a 'wimpy escape' is that what's wimpy to you may be too much for them. Especially women, whose pain tolerance changes with our cycles. So just because I could handle something yesterday and not be angry and resentful doesn't mean that a week later you'll get the same result.

You won't. Instead you may well get distrust and fear. Do you really want someone to be afraid of you in the future? Do you want a relationship where she does what she has to out of fear and not out of love?



MDomCouple -> RE: Safe Word? (2/27/2012 10:45:06 AM)

I have two subs that I play with regularly, both of whom have a safeword established. One sub has used his safeword on a couple different occasions, usually at much lower levels of intensity in our sessions that the other sub can handle. The second sub has never uttered his safeword, and has told me that he doesn't want to be allowed one. However, that is a hard limit with me. I don't care how often I play with a sub, there will ALWAYS be a safeword established. If the sub is like the first sub I mentioned and uses it frequently, that is fine. If the sub is like the second sub I mentioned and never uses it, that is fine. I don't know how the sub is truly feeling, since I can't be in his mind or his body. No matter if the sub intends to use it or not, and that is 100% his call to make, I always make sure that one is established. Even the subs who think they may never use one could end up finding themselves in a position where they need it, as no one of can account for every remote possibility in a session.

And, as Delilya said, I also give them a flag to use when gagged. Though, in my case, it isn't a flag so much as it is a brightly-colored squishy ball to hold. If they can't speak and I see that ball drop, everything stops immediately.

As for a general guideline, I think that the use of safewords or flags is up to each sub and each Dom/me to establish what is right for them, for their dynamic, and for their sessions.



Whenready -> RE: Safe Word? (2/27/2012 2:39:24 PM)

Tongue firmly in cheek here, but with sincere thanks to Flanders & Swann:

Oh, it's hard to say...
"Oly-ma-kitty-luca-chi-chi-chi"
But in Tonga, that means... "No"!

If I ever have the money,
'Tis to Tonga I shall go.
For each lovely Tongan maiden there,
Will gladly make a date.

And by the time she's said:
"Oly-ma-kitty-luca-chi-chi-chi",
It is usually too late!



malemaid4BBW -> RE: Safe Word? (2/27/2012 3:40:20 PM)

quote:

k


If your description of events is true I wouldn't imagine a safe word would have made much difference. I'd also venture that the Lady in question is dangerous and should be avoided as your description sounds more like comon assault than D/s or bdsm. However as I don't know the lady, and going by what you say wouldn't want to my thoughts are neither here nor there.



FallenStar82 -> RE: Safe Word? (2/27/2012 4:29:04 PM)

I would say that Casteel and Notthetongs have it right. Communication is the key, whatever and however that is handled. Just my (2) cents.

-N.



DommesLesEnigma -> RE: Safe Word? (2/28/2012 1:06:43 AM)

Safeword always it is just responsible



Bongy -> RE: Safe Word? (3/3/2012 11:47:03 AM)

Agreed.

it's just better safe than sorry.



LoreBook -> RE: Safe Word? (3/3/2012 1:12:08 PM)

I think a safe word (or sign) is an essential tool. It allows the bottom to inform the top when something is seriously wrong. No matter how long you have been in the lifestyle, or how skilled you are at whatever activity you are doing, or how long you have been doing it with your present partner, things can go wrong, and since you're not the one on the receiving end, you can't always know that they have gone wrong.

I don't feel that a slave should use a safeword for any other purpose than that.



Hotch -> RE: Safe Word? (3/3/2012 1:45:58 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LoreBook

I think a safe word (or sign) is an essential tool. It allows the bottom to inform the top when something is seriously wrong. No matter how long you have been in the lifestyle, or how skilled you are at whatever activity you are doing, or how long you have been doing it with your present partner, things can go wrong, and since you're not the one on the receiving end, you can't always know that they have gone wrong.

I don't feel that a slave should use a safeword for any other purpose than that.



I agree 100%. A safeword is your 911 call, it signals an emergency response. There's no ambiguity, no misunderstanding, no second guessing, no delay. Everything from that utterance forward is communication and action to address the problem. It's another level of safety that hopefully will never be used. No matter how good people think they are, when you play with pain, screaming, pleading and sadism, you can't rely on normal lines of communication to alert you immediately to a problem. If your play never involves screaming, crying and pleading and every word uttered is taken literally, then maybe you don't need a safeword. A safeword has nothing to do with limits, that is a completely different subject that has to do with negotiation and understanding your partner.



njlauren -> RE: Safe Word? (3/3/2012 1:55:07 PM)

I think anyone who says safewords is for whimps is someone running around in a powder magazine with a blowtorch, to be honest. A safeword among other things is a way to engender trust when people are building up some sort of relationship in play, it tells the sub the person in control will respect it, and the one in control the person under control is not some hero who is going to risk themselves when things get too tough for them.

And yes, I have been in a relationship as a sub where we had no safeword, but we also didn't need it, because there was an implicit one there. My domme knew me well enough after a long time exploring and doing pretty rough things, that she could read me like a book, and she also could tell the difference between "no, no" and when something was wrong when i said it, we had that kind of trust, so in effect there was an inherent safeword.

Safewords under the right circumstances also make for great mindfucks,as others have pointed out some dominants get people for example to go to yellow if they use that scheme and have consequences for that that makes it hard to say it, they are torn, and it can break a sub into subspace (obviosuly, that is for advanced players, with a dominant who knows how to do that safely; you could get a sub inexperienced enough to hit something that is truly hurting them, refuse to safeword, and end up seriously hurt, it is a form of edge play. I had something like that with a pro domme session where she threatened me with something she knew would break me, forced me to safeword, but when i realized it was a mindfuck it broke me....hard to describe, but realizing how the devious woman did it, that she in fact would never let me come to harm like that or ever suffer consequences of a safeword, put me for the first time deep into sub mode...

But again, I would argue that safewords for people into any kind of sensation play and the like is critical, and even for emotionally damaging scenes it is critical, the emotional could be worse then the physical. Unless there is the implicit trust that a dominant would realize when a sub is in trouble enough, via visual or auditory clues, there should be one, and even the little bit of edge play above could have backfired if it was people not truly in line with each other.



Hotch -> RE: Safe Word? (3/3/2012 2:14:21 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: njlauren

I think anyone who says safewords is for whimps is someone running around in a powder magazine with a blowtorch, to be honest. A safeword among other things is a way to engender trust when people are building up some sort of relationship in play, it tells the sub the person in control will respect it, and the one in control the person under control is not some hero who is going to risk themselves when things get too tough for them.

And yes, I have been in a relationship as a sub where we had no safeword, but we also didn't need it, because there was an implicit one there. My domme knew me well enough after a long time exploring and doing pretty rough things, that she could read me like a book, and she also could tell the difference between "no, no" and when something was wrong when i said it, we had that kind of trust, so in effect there was an inherent safeword.

Safewords under the right circumstances also make for great mindfucks,as others have pointed out some dominants get people for example to go to yellow if they use that scheme and have consequences for that that makes it hard to say it, they are torn, and it can break a sub into subspace (obviosuly, that is for advanced players, with a dominant who knows how to do that safely; you could get a sub inexperienced enough to hit something that is truly hurting them, refuse to safeword, and end up seriously hurt, it is a form of edge play. I had something like that with a pro domme session where she threatened me with something she knew would break me, forced me to safeword, but when i realized it was a mindfuck it broke me....hard to describe, but realizing how the devious woman did it, that she in fact would never let me come to harm like that or ever suffer consequences of a safeword, put me for the first time deep into sub mode...

But again, I would argue that safewords for people into any kind of sensation play and the like is critical, and even for emotionally damaging scenes it is critical, the emotional could be worse then the physical. Unless there is the implicit trust that a dominant would realize when a sub is in trouble enough, via visual or auditory clues, there should be one, and even the little bit of edge play above could have backfired if it was people not truly in line with each other.


I disagree with this use of a safeword (or action). This is what people are talking about when they argue the need for a safeword. A safeword has a VERY narrow and limited meaning. It means STOP now and immediately start a rescue effort. It's not a goal, threat or mind fuck tool... It's NOT PART OF THE SCENE, it's completely outside of the scene, just like an ejection seat is not part of flying an aircraft. As far as I'm concerned, if a safeword is used because of something a Top has done deliberately, then it doesn't just end the scene, but possibly should end the relationship. You don't deliberately set the house on fire, call 911 and expect to escape without punishment.



IrishMist -> RE: Safe Word? (3/3/2012 2:25:35 PM)

quote:

You don't deliberately set the house on fire, call 911 and expect to escape without punishment

But, but, but.....

[8D]



njlauren -> RE: Safe Word? (3/3/2012 3:08:33 PM)

A safeword is supposed to be where a sub thinks they cannot handle what is going on, it is going beyond comfort limits, it isn't only just about distress. The point of a safeword is for the sub to stop something, to say it is beyond where they are comfortable, whatever, and it doesn't have to be at the level of not calling 911 in a house fire, that narrow and limited example leaves out the idea that a safeword means the sub wants the scene stopped, not that they are having a pulmonary embolism or the like. It could be simply about taking a limit slightly beyond where they had gone before, for example, it doesn't have to be the domme shocking a sub with a 220 and causing chess pains. A safeword means stop the session, but there are a variety of reasons a sub may do that. I realize some expect a safeword is only for extreme distress, that a sub is supposed to 'tough it through' anythng, but there are ways to get a sub to safeword without it being that extreme, could be simply threats of doing something....has trust been broken? no, because if the dominant gets the sub to codeword as part of a mindfuck, it doesn't change the fact the safeword is there and has been followed. The only reason I could see a sub dropping a dominant would be if they don't respect a safeword, and a dominant who drops a sub for using a safeword because they decided the sub wasn't really in danger is to me what would be a problem.

Obviously it depends on the relationship as well, maybe for some a safeword represents only if in extreme distress, but the important part of the safeword isn't that it is used or not used for certain levels, it is that it is respected, period. There isn't any such thing as a 'false alarm' with safewords, it means stop....now, if a sub uses a safeword all the time, isn't willing to do anything, in effect refuses to play by using the safeword, then quite frankly they shouldn't be doing d/s. Likewise using safewords as a technique routinely in scenes by a domme is self defeating, the sub will get the idea and it either won't work, or will cause them to walk away.



Hotch -> RE: Safe Word? (3/3/2012 3:15:39 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: njlauren

A safeword is supposed to be where a sub thinks they cannot handle what is going on, it is going beyond comfort limits, it isn't only just about distress. The point of a safeword is for the sub to stop something, to say it is beyond where they are comfortable, whatever, and it doesn't have to be at the level of not calling 911 in a house fire. It could be simply about taking a limit slightly beyond where they had gone before, for example, it doesn't have to be the domme shocking a sub with a 220 and causing chess pains. A safeword means stop the session, but there are a variety of reasons a sub may do that. I realize some expect a safeword is only for extreme distress, that a sub is supposed to 'tough it through' anythng, but there are ways to get a sub to safeword without it being that extreme, could be simply threats of doing something....has trust been broken? no, because if the dominant gets the sub to codeword as part of a mindfuck, it doesn't change the fact the safeword is there and has been followed. The only reason I could see a sub dropping a dominant would be if they don't respect a safeword, and a dominant who drops a sub for using a safeword because they decided the sub wasn't really in danger is to me what would be a problem.


I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this point. I can do without your version of the safeword. If it doesn't have a black and white definition, then it loses it's value as a safety device and is just another aspect of the scene.



njlauren -> RE: Safe Word? (3/3/2012 3:48:22 PM)

I don't see how it needs to be a black and white thing. Do you feel, Hoch, that if it is used other then for a true emergency, that the sub will use it too much? Are you afraid if it isn't just 'emergency' only, like a fire alarm, that a dominant might ignore it, like the boy who cried wolf? (and I am asking this genuinely, I don't mean that with any disrespect). I just don't see that if a sub uses a safeword in anything but in distress, if they are uncomfortable with something, etc, that it changes the value of the safeword as either a safety or as an element? The point of a safeword is the sub is saying they are beyond limits, uncomfortable with what is going on, whatever...I will add to that that there are times, as a sub, where something I could generally handle wasn't working. A stupid example, if I had a head cold and was masked, it caused problems I wouldn't otherwise have; I wasn't in distress per se, I could breath, but the feeling around it was uncomfortable enough for me to use the safeword. Now I was calm, I wasn't panicking, but the domme I was with understood why I did it.....

And yes, I can see negatives to using safewords like that, some subs could use it not to stretch limits, to manipulate a dominant, and the real answer there is it depends on the situation, the relationship and the dominant and sub. Obviously, safety has to be the utmost reason for a safeword, but if using it where it is still there as a safety, as long as the parties in the relationship don't have that binary view, seems more like how you say potato:)



LoreBook -> RE: Safe Word? (3/3/2012 3:51:50 PM)

I'm with Hotch on this one. A safeword isn't and should never be a part of a scene or mindfuck. I also don't think it should be used because something is going beyond one's comfort level or one doesn't want to do something. Its for emergencies, its not a get out of jail free card.



MrBukani -> RE: Safe Word? (3/3/2012 4:40:46 PM)

there is one international safe word. Just say my name instead of sir.
I get that. Then we tok on eqol terrums agin.



MDomCouple -> RE: Safe Word? (3/3/2012 6:12:12 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LoreBook

I'm with Hotch on this one. A safeword isn't and should never be a part of a scene or mindfuck. I also don't think it should be used because something is going beyond one's comfort level or one doesn't want to do something. Its for emergencies, its not a get out of jail free card.

For you, that may be perfectly acceptable. But, shouldn't be up to the individual Dom and sub to figure out for themselves when safewords should come in?



jennileigh8182 -> RE: Safe Word? (3/3/2012 6:48:26 PM)

The dominant I'm seeing and I don't have a safe word. The first time we played, I yelped 'ow,' and he was sensitive to the fact that it was our first time and my tone had changed from the whimpering/moaning/begging to a sharp, single word. The last time we played, he again hit a point where I said 'ow,' but with less intensity, since i had greater trust in him this time....he said 'don't stop me,' wanting to push me and stretch me a bit. I wouldn't have uttered a word of protest or made a single move, but he was apparently paying pretty close attention, because when it really got to be too much, he stopped, leaned in close, and asked if I was ok (to which I, of course, said 'yes,' but he didn't quite take it as gospel in that moment), reminded me that he'd said he would push me sometimes, told me to take a breath....he took a break, but remained closer to me physically, almost surrounding me, watching me and talking calmly until he was certain I was ok. Even at that point, we continued (minus the discomfort) for only a few more minutes before we took a bit of a break, resuming our activities later on. Looking back, I wonder if he continued for those few minutes in part to show me I hadn't killed the mood by hitting a breaking point. I would have been pretty devastated if he'd halted all play at that moment, certain I'd critically disappointed him.

Being the nutty afraid-of-displeasing-sub-type, I asked him when we were cuddling on the couch at the end of the evening if he was upset, and even texted him a day or two later when it was still on my mind, and he quickly assured me that he was not, that he was, in fact, very pleased with me.

This is really the type I prefer. I want a dominant that is paying that much attention to my reactions. I have no doubt that if I'd REALLY protested, he'd have halted immediately and made certain I was ok. I think safe words would be important if I had any interest in casual play, but I don't. I have nothing against them, I just would prefer to know my dominant is watching and gauging reactions and to have enough trust that something along the lines of, "omg, that f'ing hurts, you ass!" would be acceptable if it came to it. *lol*



Kana -> RE: Safe Word? (3/3/2012 8:52:35 PM)

I safeword or use handsigns when we are still new to each other and I am learning her impact points, how she reacts, how to read her body language.
As time progresses, and familiarity becomes second nature, safe words slide out of the play.
Then she just says something like, "Sir, this position is shredding my shoulder and that's that..."



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