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Do you think real punishment is a mercy? - 1/28/2012 4:33:54 AM

TheKingofHell

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I was watching a re run of Supernatural this God Osiris has one of the characters on trial and in the middle of trial is called out on his bs he says "I don't decide anything this is about how Dean feels. People want to be punished I simply weigh the guilt. Real punishment is a mercy."

I personally think that in some cases this might be the case because guilt can send people on a path of self destruction.

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RE: Do you think real punishment is a mercy? - 1/28/2012 4:46:04 AM

LillyBoPeep

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That's an interesting way to put it, but I can see the point... once you're punnished, you have finality. You've "paid back" whatever harm you caused, and it's all over and resolved. Guilt can grow for years and years annd thenn spiral innto other things; self-loathing, self-destruction as you said, loss of self-esteem. It can turn into a fear of repeating past actions and zap ambition, initiative, and motivation. It can turn into depression. So just having a way to put finality on that, via punishment/atonement, that would be more positive than the alternative...

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RE: Do you think real punishment is a mercy? - 1/28/2012 4:51:13 AM

tazzygirl

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I would be curious as to the thoughts about the circling of that guilt. Someone who feels guilty needs to be punished to "pay back". But what happens to the one doing the punishing? Could there not be a certain amount of guilt over that as well? As a parent, I punished my child, but also felt a bit of failure, and guilt, as a result of having to punish him.

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RE: Do you think real punishment is a mercy? - 1/28/2012 5:24:28 AM

LadyHibiscus

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I do nt see how punishment erases guilt.

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RE: Do you think real punishment is a mercy? - 1/28/2012 5:31:13 AM

LillyBoPeep

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For some people it does by giving them the belief that they've paid for whatever was wrong.
They have an urge to tell someone what they did, either the person affected, or someone else, and then "pay it back."
It's like when people turn themselves in for crimes.

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RE: Do you think real punishment is a mercy? - 1/28/2012 6:07:50 AM

kalikshama

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I don't engage in behavior that induces feeling of guilt.

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RE: Do you think real punishment is a mercy? - 1/28/2012 6:43:35 AM

Kaliko

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheKingofHell

I was watching a re run of Supernatural this God Osiris has one of the characters on trial and in the middle of trial is called out on his bs he says "I don't decide anything this is about how Dean feels. People want to be punished I simply weigh the guilt. Real punishment is a mercy."

I personally think that in some cases this might be the case because guilt can send people on a path of self destruction.

Ah. (Rubbing my hands together.) My former and I had a long, long, long running discussion about this very thing.

He maintained that by being truly sorry for one's actions and resolving to never act that way again, all is forgiven. Repentance.

I have always believed that there must be some punishment for one's action. Retribution.

I've used this example. If my daughter stole a stereo, is it enough for her to be sorry and resolve to never do it again? Or should she also have the stereo taken away and be punished?

Now, the "punishment" could be whatever appropriately helps someone to give the occurrence closure and move on. I can say that I have put myself through forced loss because I felt it would be healthier for me to go through that than to feel like I was getting away with a guilt-free existence. I think moving on from our worst actions with nothing more than a "Whew! I'll never do THAT again!" doesn't help us grow. Actually, more to the point, I think it's selfish. Sinful, even.*

And, though I'm not religious in the organized religion sense, I do have some strong beliefs. I do feel that if we allow ourselves to avoid punishment, we are missing a large part of what makes us a whole being. So, on the flip side, yes, receiving a punishment could be a mercy because it can provide some balance and humility in what would otherwise be a life with little allowance for uncomfortable, but necessary, growth.

*ETA

< Message edited by Kaliko -- 1/28/2012 6:58:45 AM >

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RE: Do you think real punishment is a mercy? - 1/28/2012 6:46:02 AM

LadyHibiscus

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LillyBoPeep

For some people it does by giving them the belief that they've paid for whatever was wrong.
They have an urge to tell someone what they did, either the person affected, or someone else, and then "pay it back."
It's like when people turn themselves in for crimes.

I understand the need to fix a mistake, or make restitution, I don't see how that makes the guilt go away IF the person is capable of feeling guilt in the first place, and not just remorse at being caught out.

One of the many reasons I don't engage in punishment dynamics, I reckon.

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RE: Do you think real punishment is a mercy? - 1/28/2012 7:24:00 AM

Soyokaze

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I think it depends on the person. I tend to be very hard on myself if I feel like I've let someone down; often to the point that it physically manifests itself as chest pains. If I feel like there's been some sort of restitution to a situation, it eases those feelings greatly.

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RE: Do you think real punishment is a mercy? - 1/28/2012 7:35:38 AM

Miserlou

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i feel that punishment is just revenge in a different suit. and i don't really approve of it. however, it does have some deterrent effect, as i suspect that most of us don't do things that are illegal not because we aren't supposed to, but out of fear of being caught and punished for it.

i'm not saying that is the case with every situation or law, but to a large degree it is, especially with the less egregious crimes.

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RE: Do you think real punishment is a mercy? - 1/28/2012 7:56:45 AM

MissImmortalPain

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Punishment does in many cases create the illusion that something has been fixed when it infact changes nothing. It gives the person who has been wronged the feeling of revenge so they feel as if they are in a better place. For the person that did the wrong it sometimes gives a feeling of repentance. As if their action has been corrected. What it actually is would be a distraction from the truth.

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RE: Do you think real punishment is a mercy? - 1/28/2012 8:02:44 AM

LadyHibiscus

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RE: Do you think real punishment is a mercy? - 1/28/2012 11:51:05 AM

TheKingofHell

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Miserlou

i feel that punishment is just revenge in a different suit. and i don't really approve of it. however, it does have some deterrent effect, as i suspect that most of us don't do things that are illegal not because we aren't supposed to, but out of fear of being caught and punished for it.

i'm not saying that is the case with every situation or law, but to a large degree it is, especially with the less egregious crimes.

True punishment is more of vengeance than anything.

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RE: Do you think real punishment is a mercy? - 1/28/2012 11:52:22 AM

LadyHibiscus

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheKingofHell

quote:

ORIGINAL: Miserlou

i feel that punishment is just revenge in a different suit. and i don't really approve of it. however, it does have some deterrent effect, as i suspect that most of us don't do things that are illegal not because we aren't supposed to, but out of fear of being caught and punished for it.

i'm not saying that is the case with every situation or law, but to a large degree it is, especially with the less egregious crimes.

True punishment is more of vengeance than anything.

Then how is anyone's guilt expiated by it? Vengeance is only satisfied by the person feeling it acting out.

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RE: Do you think real punishment is a mercy? - 1/28/2012 1:32:44 PM

MissImmortalPain

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What exactly is "true punishment" ? Vengeance can only be done when a person who has had harm done to them inflicts same said or similar harm back on the first person. Vengeance as an act of violent revenge does not seem to me as if it is well thought out. Movies and comic books lead us to believe that vengeance is an act of honor but it demands a person give themself over to their primal self. A person acting out a primal urge is rarely in the frame of mind needed to decide a fair and right punishment for a person.

< Message edited by MissImmortalPain -- 1/28/2012 1:34:00 PM >

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It is always by way of pain that we arrive at pleasure.

We must all go through a right of passage,and it must be physical, it must be painful,and it must leave a mark.

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RE: Do you think real punishment is a mercy? - 1/28/2012 7:21:13 PM

littlewonder

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For me it eases my guilt when Master punishes me because he knows without it, the guilt will eat me alive and it will kill our relationship. Funny thing is, my therapist feels basically the same. I feel guilt for certain things I've done in my life and as my therapist says, you have to learn to forgive yourself and move on with your life. But it's easier with Master because he can punish me, we talk about it and then it cleanses me and lifts a burden from me. It doesn't erase it, but it forgives.

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RE: Do you think real punishment is a mercy? - 1/29/2012 12:19:47 PM

vincentML

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MissImmortalPain

What exactly is "true punishment" ? Vengeance can only be done when a person who has had harm done to them inflicts same said or similar harm back on the first person. Vengeance as an act of violent revenge does not seem to me as if it is well thought out. Movies and comic books lead us to believe that vengeance is an act of honor but it demands a person give themself over to their primal self. A person acting out a primal urge is rarely in the frame of mind needed to decide a fair and right punishment for a person.

Perhaps if looked at from a societal or community point of view vengence might seem to be a proper attribute of punishment. The community regains its righteousness. And with a bit of luck the process might be done with fairness and justice. Sometimes, not so much luck. But that's another issue.

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RE: Do you think real punishment is a mercy? - 1/31/2012 1:48:16 AM

leonine

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quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

For me it eases my guilt when Master punishes me because he knows without it, the guilt will eat me alive and it will kill our relationship. Funny thing is, my therapist feels basically the same. I feel guilt for certain things I've done in my life and as my therapist says, you have to learn to forgive yourself and move on with your life. But it's easier with Master because he can punish me, we talk about it and then it cleanses me and lifts a burden from me. It doesn't erase it, but it forgives.

This is exactly where I and my slaves used to be. If they'd done wrong, displeased Master, they felt bad. The cruelest thing I could have done would have been to leave them in disgrace eating themselves over it. Once I'd punished them, it was forgiven and forgotten and we could move on. Closure.

< Message edited by leonine -- 1/31/2012 1:49:17 AM >

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RE: Do you think real punishment is a mercy? - 1/31/2012 2:03:09 AM

Winterapple

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FR
In the big picture the only real punishment may be
that which we mete out to ourselves.
In a relationship if it stops or alleviates
the I'm still pissed/ I'm still obsessing and
feeling rotten cycle it can be a useful thing.

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