RE: Hobgoblin or Ideal?

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[Poll]

Hobgoblin or Ideal?

I am pro death penalty/support keeping abortion legal

36% (8)

I am anti death penalty/support keeping abortion legal

50% (11)

I am anti death penalty/against keeping abortion legal

4% (1)

I am pro death penalty/against keeping abortion legal

9% (2)

Total Votes : 22

(last vote on : 1/30/2012 12:57:14 PM)
(Poll will run till: -- )

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RE: Hobgoblin or Ideal? - 1/29/2012 9:50:14 PM

Aylee

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

I believe it was Enerson who said: "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines."

Now, I would suggest that consistency is a goal; an ideal so, I guess we need to know what a "foolish consistency" is. Is it the act of being consistent, even when shit blows up in your face? Is it (Like AA says) doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results?

You could read Ralph Waldo Emerson's Self Reliance and see for yourself what he meant.

quote:

I would like to remove the word "foolish" and focus on consistency.

That kind of screws up his point.

quote:

Most especially those in categories 2 & 4: I'd be interested in knowing how you arrive at the distinction.

I am pro-death penalty, anti-abortion, although I do believe that it should be legal.

You are comparing two different things. One is an action by the state, taken because of a breech of the social contract. The other is an action taken by an individual for reasons of their own.

quote:

Peace and comfort,

Michael

The other terror that scares us from self-trust is our consistency; a reverence for our past act or word, because the eyes of others have no other data for computing our orbit than our past acts, and we are loath to disappoint them.

...

A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines. With consistency a great soul has simply nothing to do. He may as well concern himself with his shadow on the wall. Speak what you think now in hard words, and to-morrow speak what to-morrow thinks in hard words again, though it contradict every thing you said to-day. — 'Ah, so you shall be sure to be misunderstood.' — Is it so bad, then, to be misunderstood? Pythagoras was misunderstood, and Socrates, and Jesus, and Luther, and Copernicus, and Galileo, and Newton, and every pure and wise spirit that ever took flesh. To be great is to be misunderstood.

http://www.online-literature.com/emerson/588/

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RE: Hobgoblin or Ideal? - 1/29/2012 10:05:15 PM

SilverBoat

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Most of the objections to capital punishment fall into several general categories:
- that taking another's life is always wrong, except perhaps in defense of self or others
- that too much bias in guilt and sentencing occurs, if not outright errors or murderous perjury
- that per {insert religion} beliefs, it's wrong to remove chances for repentence/redemption
- that its costs are higher than life-sentences, and its deterrent effect may be null or inverse

Most of the objections to abortion (even early-term) fall into several general categories:
- that taking another's life is always wrong, except perhaps in defense of self or others
- that per {insert religion} beliefs, it's wrong to remove chances for salvation/afterlife
- that too much bias in decisions occurs, if not outright errors or murderous perjury
- that its costs are higher than admitted, and it promotes immoral fornication-for-fun-instead-of-offspring

My opinions about both matters might not be consistent with the general population's, but I think that I've reached conclusions that have sound ethical and practical basis.

In the abstract sense, life and (being human in particular) human and other beings capable of thought appear to be the rarest entities in this universe, and as such should be somewhat sacrosanct. However, all known such beings are dependent on vary narrow environmental zones; temperature, pressure, chemicals, etc, and from blastocyst to fetus even more so because it's totally dependent on one other being. Frankly, that dependency removes the matter of abortion from the abstract, because it involves two beings, one that has profound social connections and interactions, and the other incapable of living without the first's cooperation. The ethics of interfering with their interaction don't have global resolution.

If it's perhaps necessary to kill in order to prevent harm to self and companions or others, for example in the case of soldiers trapped behind enemy lines, and unable to secure surrendered combatants, are they justified in executing the prisoners as humanely as practical? Where does that range in comparison to supposed necessity to execute heinous murderers? Merely a practical decision, due to urgency, hazards, circumstances? ... There doesn't seem to be any rigorously defensible conclusion to all that, so I'm reluctant to impose a coldly calculated sentence of death. If they choose to die instead of endure prison, that'd be another matter entirely.

SB

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Post #: 22

RE: Hobgoblin or Ideal? - 1/29/2012 11:37:27 PM

DaddySatyr

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I would like to clear something up: In my mind, I am not comparing two different things. Either one is state-sanctioned/approved/allowed/whatever synonym you choose ending of a life.

That was where my original thought came from; in either scenario, a life is ended.

I struggled with the issue and still do. It's why I asked the question.

I am for the death penalty in the most heinous of offenses but I'm not completely sanguine about the state's ability to mete it out, justly.

I never want women reverting to coat hangers or back allies, again but, I consider the practice to be barbaric (and I've lost two children to abortion; the female's choice).

As I said; either way, a life is ended and I can't wrap my head around someone who willfully commits an act so heinous and a forming life that's guilty of nothing more than causing it's mother some morning sickness. Yes, I know there are some pregnancies that endanger the mother's life and in those cases, I understand that as horrid as it may be, the mother cannot be asked to willingly die (I was also in that position, once). It's a horrible thing that I wouldn't wish on one of the cold-blooded murderers to whom I'd be willing to give the shots, myself.

It's a struggle that I deal with each time one of these issues come up and I was wondering how people that are pro/anti deal with the apparent duality.

Peace and comfort,

Michael

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RE: Hobgoblin or Ideal? - 1/29/2012 11:57:58 PM

ViborgHerre

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several points:

Regarding capital punishment
1) If death penalty should work, it must be swift, not let people (both convicted and victims) sit for years and wait.

2) If courts were infailable, and no false convictions could occour, the major complaint against death penalty would not be applicable.

3) "UN declaration of human rights" states in section 3: Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person.

4) if there was an infailable way to terminate life, we could disregard the section 5 as well .....

Regarding abortion
1) there is a stage where possible life is not life, or condoms should - as in the catholic church - be banned.

2) The female decides if she want to have an abortion - according to law.

regards
Peter

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RE: Hobgoblin or Ideal? - 1/30/2012 6:20:24 AM

Moonhead

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FR:
Myself, I'm not voting because I find this assumption that a blob of meat which might become a person in another six months and a legal adult who's old enough to stand trial are equivalent completely absurd.

< Message edited by Moonhead -- 1/30/2012 6:21:02 AM >

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