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RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/12/2012 10:38:46 AM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

how did you conclude by looking at the data that prayer works?

Maybe she actually looks at the data instead of just pushing an agenda?

K.





< Message edited by Kirata -- 2/12/2012 10:39:31 AM >

(in reply to GotSteel)
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RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/12/2012 10:39:39 AM   
tazzygirl


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Status: offline 		I think GS wants to know why it works, as opposed to asking if it works.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/12/2012 11:18:22 AM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

I think GS wants to know why it works, as opposed to asking if it works.

Oh, I'm certain he's not asking IF it works. He's been flatly and repeatedly insisting that it doesn't since at least 2009, and recycling the same old study that he linked in the current thread as his proof. I think he's asking why YOU think it works.

Or to put the emphasis differently, why you THINK it works.

K.

(in reply to tazzygirl)
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RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/12/2012 11:20:37 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		No better health benefit than reduced stress to aid in the recovery of many of the diseases of the body.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Kirata)
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RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/12/2012 11:45:01 AM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

No better health benefit than reduced stress to aid in the recovery of many of the diseases of the body.

True enough. I don't think GS or any other Atheist would object in the slightest to defining prayer as a "Stress-Reduction Technique that consists of talking to an imaginary friend. "

K.

(in reply to tazzygirl)
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RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/12/2012 1:58:34 PM   
Musicmystery


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Status: offline 		Prayer is also useful in reminding the one praying that whether there's a god or not, the one praying is not it.

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RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/12/2012 4:54:12 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Prayer is also useful in reminding the one praying that whether there's a god or not, the one praying is not it.

Heh.



K.

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RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/12/2012 5:12:30 PM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

how did you conclude by looking at the data that prayer works?

Maybe she actually looks at the data instead of just pushing an agenda?

K.



quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
No conclusions about the efficacy of prayer can be drawn from any of the major prayer studies with which I'm familiar. All of them are fatally flawed, not least of all because none of the designs provided even remotely adequate controls. A 2009 study conducted at Brandeis University, evaluating the procedures and methodologies employed in 18 prayer studies published between 1965 and 2006, concluded that they revealed more about the different experimenters and their assumptions than about what they claimed to be studying.


Aren't you making two mutually exclusive claims here?

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RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/12/2012 5:31:03 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

Aren't you making two mutually exclusive claims here?

Let me save people some back-clicking by putting that second quote in context:
    No conclusions about the efficacy of prayer can be drawn from any of the major prayer studies with which I'm familiar. All of them are fatally flawed, not least of all because none of the designs provided even remotely adequate controls. A 2009 study conducted at Brandeis University, evaluating the procedures and methodologies employed in 18 prayer studies published between 1965 and 2006, concluded that they revealed more about the different experimenters and their assumptions than about what they claimed to be studying.

    But that said, there is a long history of experimentation establishing the positive effects of beneficent intention in everything from simple life forms to animal disease models (for examples, see within). Additionally, positive effects have been reported in IVF-ET implantation rates and     [see note below] wound healing in non-human primates. At this point, there really isn't any question about whether or not beneficent intention works. The questions are all about how and when and why.
Now then, you were saying?
    Note: Despite still appearing in the PubMed database, I have since discovered that this particular study has been discredited.
K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 2/12/2012 6:06:08 PM >

(in reply to GotSteel)
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RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/12/2012 6:01:01 PM   
GotSteel


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Status: offline 		The data demonstrates that prayer works or it doesn't demonstrate that, which position are you taking? That's what I'm saying.

< Message edited by GotSteel -- 2/12/2012 6:02:47 PM >

(in reply to Kirata)
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RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/12/2012 6:02:52 PM   
LookieNoNookie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheKingofHell

I do and this is my evidence. YAY MY FIRST IMAGE POST!!!

Side note this is meant to be a joke not offensive.



I have to say King....presentation is everything.

(in reply to TheKingofHell)
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RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/12/2012 6:05:06 PM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
I think GS wants to know why it works, as opposed to asking if it works.


My point is about the cause as opposed to the effect, I'm certainly not looking to debate whether the placebo effect exists. But I've gotten a touch sidetracked by the phrase prayer works.

I'm going to try a different example to hopefully make a point. If we were to look at some studies on those cheesy magnet bracelets. Some might even show that cheesy magnet bracelets had some benefit but if we looked at the double blind studies on the cheesy magnet bracelets and found that those studies showed that bracelets with fake magnets in them worked just as well.

At that point I'd contest the claim that cheesy magnet bracelets work. At that point I'd say a claim like placebo works would seem to be much more valid.

So back to the data, how do you determine if God works? How do you determine if prayer even works?

(in reply to tazzygirl)
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RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/12/2012 6:13:23 PM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

At that point I'd contest the claim that cheesy magnet bracelets work. At that point I'd say a claim like placebo works would seem to be much more valid.

So back to the data, how do you determine if God works? How do you determine if prayer even works?


Its already to be shown to work in the studies I gave you. Stress can be measured. The reduction of stress can also be measured.

And, my point it... in the grand scheme of things, even those bracelets, as cheesy as you may find them, work for those who say they work.

The problem you and I have is that you are always looking for rock-hard, concrete, unchangeable scientific answers... and science will be the first to tell you those are not the answers it provides.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to GotSteel)
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RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/12/2012 7:05:08 PM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
Its already to be shown to work in the studies I gave you.

No, you showed me some studies that found a correlation between prayer and benefit, some that found none and some that found a negative correlation. That's not even close to the same thing.


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
And, my point it... in the grand scheme of things, even those bracelets, as cheesy as you may find them, work for those who say they work.

A couple of things: 1. The magnets aren't what's working, might as well just leave them out. 2. As someone else pointed out to me recently self reporting is a joke. Even for those who say that's it's working there isn't necessarily any benefit occuring.


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
The problem you and I have is that you are always looking for rock-hard, concrete, unchangeable scientific answers... and science will be the first to tell you those are not the answers it provides.

Science is a self correcting method, it continually gives us a more accurate understanding of our reality. That's why I love science and dislike faith.

(in reply to tazzygirl)
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RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/12/2012 7:19:37 PM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

No, you showed me some studies that found a correlation between prayer and benefit, some that found none and some that found a negative correlation. That's not even close to the same thing.


http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=4031010

You may want to look again.

quote:

A couple of things: 1. The magnets aren't what's working, might as well just leave them out. 2. As someone else pointed out to me recently self reporting is a joke. Even for those who say that's it's working there isn't necessarily any benefit occuring.


They arent working for who, you? I have had patients who wore them. They would not go without them. Swore they worked. The bracelets were worn for arthritis. The patients moved easier with the bracelet on. Power of mind over matter? I dont know. All I do know is that it worked for them. It hurt no one for them to wear one. It definitely does not hurt you for them to wear one.



quote:

Science is a self correcting method, it continually gives us a more accurate understanding of our reality. That's why I love science and dislike faith.


And how many times has science been wrong?

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to GotSteel)
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RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/12/2012 8:49:31 PM   
Kirata


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quote:


ORIGINAL: GotSteel

The data demonstrates that prayer works or it doesn't demonstrate that, which position are you taking? That's what I'm saying.

The major prayer studies to date do not establish that prayer doesn't work. But, I haven't been arguing that it does. I've been arguing against over-reaching claims that (a) it doesn't, and (b) that the data support that conclusion.

There is abundant evidence that various modalities of beneficent intention can produce positive effects when directed toward target lifeforms. Praying for someone clearly embodies beneficent intention. Unfortunately, the human dimension introduces myriad factors that are not encountered in studies on cell cultures and plants, and offhand I can't think of any such studies that employed prayer as the operative modality.

Personally, therefore, I am constrained to consider the possible benefit of intercessory prayer with human subjects to be an open question, but not one without at least some probability of a positive answer in some cases.

K.



< Message edited by Kirata -- 2/12/2012 9:11:19 PM >

(in reply to GotSteel)
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RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/12/2012 11:42:13 PM   
tweakabelle


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quote:

Kirata
There is abundant evidence that various modalities of beneficent intention can produce positive effects when directed toward target lifeforms. Praying for someone clearly embodies beneficent intention.


This is interesting. While "various modalities of beneficent intention" would clearly include prayer (to a deity of any variety one assumes), it is far from limited to prayer. Merely to offer someone "best wishes" would qualify as a modality of beneficent intention, it seems to me. I see no reason why positive thoughts towards some one or thing mightn't contribute to producing positive outcomes.

Is there any reason for a 'modality of beneficent intention' to be belief-specific, or even religion-specific? Again I see no reason why it has to be, or even ought to be.

So if there is a positive outcome to be achieved by praying to a deity, that outcome could just as easily be achieved through directing one's preferred modality of beneficent intention towards any secular person/goal/aim/whatever.

All of the above seems to me to be implied in your claim Kirata. I hope you will agree with my speculations in this instance.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 2/12/2012 11:44:05 PM >

_____________________________



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RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/12/2012 11:58:52 PM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

Kirata
There is abundant evidence that various modalities of beneficent intention can produce positive effects when directed toward target lifeforms. Praying for someone clearly embodies beneficent intention.


This is interesting. While "various modalities of beneficent intention" would clearly include prayer (to a deity of any variety one assumes), it is far from limited to prayer. Merely to offer someone "best wishes" would qualify as a modality of beneficent intention, it seems to me. I see no reason why positive thoughts towards some one or thing mightn't contribute to producing positive outcomes.

Is there any reason for a 'modality of beneficent intention' to be belief-specific, or even religion-specific? Again I see no reason why it has to be, or even ought to be.

So if there is a positive outcome to be achieved by praying to a deity, that outcome could just as easily be achieved through directing one's preferred modality of beneficent intention towards any secular person/goal/aim/whatever.

All of the above seems to me to be implied in your claim Kirata. I hope you will agree with my speculations in this instance.



Does it have to be? People can find that benefit in various ways. Exercise, medication, yoga, massage, acupuncture, prayer. Any of them may work for some, may not work for others.

I see no one stating it has to be belief related. Your comment ....

quote:

Again I see no reason why it has to be, or even ought to be.


Makes me question where you are asking this question from. Why cant it be belief based? Why does it have to be based upon anything else?

quote:

So if there is a positive outcome to be achieved by praying to a deity, that outcome could just as easily be achieved through directing one's preferred modality of beneficent intention towards any secular person/goal/aim/whatever.


Now you are delving into the psyche. What works for you, may not work for me, and Master Kirata may need a third choice. Limiting what works for someone because someone else doesnt approve, proving what works is legal, to me is rather questionable.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to tweakabelle)
Profile   Post #: 398
RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/13/2012 3:04:22 AM   
Rule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
This is interesting. While "various modalities of beneficent intention" would clearly include prayer (to a deity of any variety one assumes), it is far from limited to prayer.

Quite.

However, I am rather convinced that no pagan deity nor their avatars nor their incarnations appreciate being prayed to, as that poses them at tremendous risk. They, having a strong bond with the Divine who responds to such spiritual communications, are far more subject to the results of such responses than ordinary human beings.
There has been a theological evolution both among the pagan gods and henceforth on Earth, culminating in the abolition of the worship of pagan gods - including himself - by the God of the Jews when he gained the throne, in favor of the worship of the Divine.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
Merely to offer someone "best wishes" would qualify as a modality of beneficent intention, it seems to me. I see no reason why positive thoughts towards some one or thing mightn't contribute to producing positive outcomes.

Indeed, all such spiritual communications in fact are prayers. Praying is not limited to kneeling beside your bed and folding your hands and saying "Dear God such and so". It encompasses all spiritual activity.

Think of it this way: You have brought forth ka-zillion organisms. They all have needs and functions. One of their needs is for nourishment. So you decide to feed them one kilogram of nourishment at 1800 hours every day, as that is what they need on average. However, if such an organism is an elephant, on one kilogram of nourishment once a day, the poor beast will starve withing weeks. Whereas if it is a mouse, it will either explode or be unable to drag itself forward. Whereas a crocodile might not be interested in the one kilogram a day for half a year. Clearly, this feeding system does not function in an optimal way.

So what feeding system would work in an optimal way? An automated spiritual detector, is what. "I could eat half a zebra," feels the lion. "Grass, grass, grass. I eat grass all day long and it bores me to death," feels the zebra. It is a match made in heaven. One zebra asked for, one zebra coming along to be slain by the lion.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
Is there any reason for a 'modality of beneficent intention' to be belief-specific, or even religion-specific? Again I see no reason why it has to be, or even ought to be.

Quite.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
So if there is a positive outcome to be achieved by praying to a deity, that outcome could just as easily be achieved through directing one's preferred modality of beneficent intention towards any secular person/goal/aim/whatever.

Quite.

As far as I am concerned, you have passed the exam with flying colors. You have gotten it. Well done!

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RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/13/2012 6:06:56 AM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
And how many times has science been wrong?


I don't know.  But were I to set about trying to find out, I'd use scientific method to do it.

_____________________________

http://www.domme-chronicles.com


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