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RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/16/2012 2:47:29 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

It turns out that if you're not trying to pimp your handbook for professional on how to use spirituality...

I wanted to address this separately.

Finding their empty claims being countered, some people will start to channel George Bush and conclude that anyone not on their side must be on the other side. If I have given that impression, it was not intended. Contrary to the "prayer doesn't work" theme you're pushing, personal prayer and prayer as a religious discipline are neither useless nor stupid practices. But I have no desire to promote them, nor any interest in doing so. And frankly, in my opinion the efficacy of remote intercessory prayer as a healing technique seems highly problematic.

K.




< Message edited by Kirata -- 2/16/2012 3:30:36 PM >

(in reply to GotSteel)
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RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/17/2012 8:00:44 AM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer
For me, it's looking like cheesy magnetic bracelets are still ahead of praying to one's selected God/s on points. You may not get quite so much of a hope-buzz from wearing a CMB as you get from praying;

How would we know, we've never tried giving the general populace weekly CMB effectiveness seminars for their entire lives.

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer
but on the plus side, I've not heard that CMBs conduct inquisitions or start wars. Perhaps one could get the best of all worlds by wearing a CMB and praying to it in secret.

However, admittedly, I'm not sure that I've grasped the central point of that little sub-discussion on this thread . . . .


CMB's have never convinced homosexuals to commit suicide either.


(in reply to PeonForHer)
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RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/17/2012 8:26:32 AM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

CMB's have never convinced homosexuals to commit suicide either.


You are going to need to document this claim.

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(in reply to GotSteel)
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RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/17/2012 6:49:13 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

However, admittedly, I'm not sure that I've grasped the central point of that little sub-discussion on this thread . . . .

The guy in the top hat is trying to divert the audience's attention away from the fact that his rabbit is fake.

K.

(in reply to PeonForHer)
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RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/17/2012 7:46:44 PM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
Contrary to the "prayer doesn't work" theme you're pushing, personal prayer and prayer as a religious discipline are neither useless nor stupid practices.


In the sort of sense that Tazzys advocating I agree with her. Prayer can work (for the people it works for) as a meditation exercise and/or coping mechanism.

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RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/17/2012 9:02:36 PM   
Rule


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Status: offline 		I had a colleague once who did not like the work we did at all. I saw him thinking: "I just wish that I did not have to do this". He may not have known it himself, but in fact he was praying more ardently than a convent full of nuns - without ever saying a word.

He had a very large belly, so he could not see his feet. A couple of days after he started work and fervently wishing all the time to be home and not have to work, Providence made his toes meet the elevated ridge of a sewer manhole cover. He was launched through the air, and upon landing broke his upper arm and the ball-joint of his shoulder broke into three fragments.
I visited him after about five days as the only one of his many colleagues. He was convalescing at his mom's home. He hid it from his mom, but he could not hide his satisfied smirk from me: "I have had a serious accident! I won't have to work another day for the rest of my life!"

A couple of days later the employer's physician requested that he visit him. "Ah, you broke this and that, didn't you? Well, well. But you can type with your right arm, cannot you? Okay then: you can now return to your job for half a day every day. Bye!" Lord, was he disappointed!

In the end he worked there many years and was quite happy, I believe.

I have no doubt whatsoever about the connection between his wish and his 'accident'.

I could relate several (unpleasant) miracles that I experienced myself, but that would be far too personal.

< Message edited by Rule -- 2/17/2012 9:04:37 PM >

(in reply to GotSteel)
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RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/17/2012 9:49:54 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

I have no doubt whatsoever about the connection between his wish and his 'accident'.

That makes two of us.

K.

(in reply to Rule)
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RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/17/2012 10:08:13 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

In the sort of sense that Tazzys advocating I agree with her. Prayer can work (for the people it works for) as a meditation exercise and/or coping mechanism.

I think the more pertinent question would be whether you are finally willing to accept that the so-called "scientific studies" you've been citing "suffer from a major and unsolvable methodological flaw" that renders them junk.

K.

(in reply to GotSteel)
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RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/18/2012 5:36:07 AM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
I think the more pertinent question would be whether you are finally willing to accept that the so-called "scientific studies" you've been citing "suffer from a major and unsolvable methodological flaw" that renders them junk.

Guy in the top hat, I don't think that's the most pertinent question but by all means divert our intention. It seems mighty odd to me that on the one hand your trying to discredit all the large scale prayer studies while on the other your pushing studies that are much worse.

The listed authors in the studies I've been citing at least knew they had authored said study, you can't even make that claim.

I would say that the most pertinent question is think there is a god, what is your evidence? As the expression goes you can find plenty of crutches on church walls but not a single wooden leg. If you exclude outright fraud the data as bad as it may be is consistent with a phenomenon that's all in our heads and not consistent with the divine intervention of an omnipotent being.

Even if you discount the results as junk the scope and scale that we've been reduced to looking for god in is very telling.


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RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/18/2012 6:05:35 AM   
LeaderAndLover


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Status: offline 		I contend that we are all atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours

(in reply to GotSteel)
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RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/18/2012 6:59:17 AM   
Rule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
I would say that the most pertinent question is think there is a god, what is your evidence?

Witness testimonies. For example: It is known that one of the Hindu pagan gods argued that the Divine exists. (I am not certain that he believed so himself.) And that another of the Hindu pagan gods was inclined to agree with him.

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
As the expression goes you can find plenty of crutches on church walls but not a single wooden leg.

For that - works of the pagan gods - you have got to go back a couple of millennia to ancient Greece.

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
Even if you discount the results as junk the scope and scale that we've been reduced to looking for god in is very telling.

Indeed. Perhaps you ought not to look in order to find, eh?

< Message edited by Rule -- 2/18/2012 7:02:48 AM >

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RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/18/2012 7:04:38 AM   
Yachtie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LeaderAndLover

I contend that we are all atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours



That is so worn out.

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RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/18/2012 7:10:54 AM   
LanceHughes


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LeaderAndLover
I contend that we are all atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours

I'll often use "one less gawd" but.......

I like to say "I'm a born-again Atheist."

When I get the big "Huh?" I continue, "I was born without religion and was trained - as are almost all new-borns - in the religion of my parents.  Once I figured out that I had been born as an Atheist, I became born-again."

They shake their heads and I continue, "If you had been born in Nepal, you most certainly would have been raised Buddhist, y'think?"

They usually walk away, having nothing further to say.

_____________________________

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"Advice is what we ask for when we already know the answer, but wish we didn't." Erica Jong

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(in reply to LeaderAndLover)
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RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/18/2012 7:28:54 AM   
LanceHughes


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie
quote:

ORIGINAL: LeaderAndLover
I contend that we are all atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours

That is so worn out.

And the MAIN reason it is "so worn out," is that it is the truth and effective and useful.

If you're tired of hearing it, come up with a good strong answer to it and it will go away.

Need help answering "it"?  As suggested - Answer the following:
Why are you not a Jehovah's Witness?
Why are you not a Mormon? *
Why are you not a Pagan?
Why are you not a Christian? (If you are, substitute a Christian cult,...... er, sorry.... substitute a Christian sect that you are not. LOL!  Preferably one that is the furthest from yours in dogma.)
Why are you not Jewish? (If you are, add Orthodox or reformed, counter-respectively.)
Why are you not Hindu?






ETA:
* I love their recent billboards showing three "regular" folk each with "I'm a Mormon" under a face-shot.  I am SOOOOOooooooooo......... tempted to get up there and deface the words, removing the center 'm' leaving "I'm a Moron." A Moron with a capital 'M' by the way. LOL!


< Message edited by LanceHughes -- 2/18/2012 7:33:39 AM >

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(in reply to Yachtie)
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RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/18/2012 7:29:09 AM   
Rule


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Status: offline 		Religion and being aware of the existence of the Divine and the pagan gods and their incarnations and avatars are completely different issues.

The question, LH, was not whether you were religious, but whether you think there is a god (the OP left open - probably due to ignorance - whether he referred to a pagan god (or its incarnations and avatars) or whether he referred to the Divine).

ETA: It is quite possible to be religious and not to believe in the Divine nor in any of the pagan gods and their incarnations and avatars. In other words: it is quite possible to be religious and an atheist.

< Message edited by Rule -- 2/18/2012 7:31:44 AM >

(in reply to LanceHughes)
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RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/18/2012 7:37:39 AM   
LanceHughes


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

Religion and being aware of the existence of the Divine and the pagan gods and their incarnations and avatars are completely different issues.

The question, LH, was not whether you were religious, but whether you think there is a god (the OP left open - probably due to ignorance - whether he referred to a pagan god (or its incarnations and avatars) or whether he referred to the Divine).

ETA: It is quite possible to be religious and not to believe in the Divine nor in any of the pagan gods and their incarnations and avatars. In other words: it is quite possible to be religious and an atheist.

Mind explodes at odd statement.
Begs for explanation,
Must go to work.

How-the-ku-r-u?

_____________________________

"Train 'em the right way - my way." Lance Hughes
"Advice is what we ask for when we already know the answer, but wish we didn't." Erica Jong

10 fluffy points
50 nz points

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(in reply to Rule)
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RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/18/2012 8:14:03 AM   
Rule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LanceHughes
Mind explodes at odd statement.
Begs for explanation,
Must go to work.

How-the-ku-r-u?

I am sorry, but I am unfamiliar with text speak. I guess you asked "How the ku are you?" However, I have no idea what a ku is.

Religions are algorithms for dealing with life as applied by persons and populations. Obviously, some algorithms are more successful than other algorithms.

Most importantly, though, religions, regulating the reproduction of the females in that population, are algorithms that affect the evolution (rate) of their populations. The Christian evolution algorithm generally is the best. Therefore I recommend either Christian or post-Christian religions and avoiding all things Jewish (like the Amish and similar ilk).

It is best to bet on the winning team.

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RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/18/2012 8:27:19 AM   
SoftBonds


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Status: offline 		Never going to be able to read all the posts on this thread, but to answer the Op's question, yes, I would resist.
If you are correct that I was created by your god, then he/she created me to be a contrarian, at least where bowing and scraping are concerned. There is a Kipling story about how man domesticated the animals, and if you read that story, I am the cat...
So if Jesus (not Jesus Christ, since Christ isn't a name, it's a title that morons have appended to the name), showed up and told me "the truth," I'd go, "Interesting, well, if bowing and scraping is the only way to go to heaven, see you in hell."
Or as I like to tell the baptists, I'm going where Ghandi and the Native American's went. If God judges us on our works, maybe that is a nice place, but if it is all about knowing "the truth," screw him.

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RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/18/2012 8:33:55 AM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

It seems mighty odd to me that on the one hand your trying to discredit all the large scale prayer studies while on the other your pushing studies that are much worse. The listed authors in the studies I've been citing at least knew they had authored said study, you can't even make that claim.

I haven't been just "trying" to discredit them. Even the authors of the very meta-analysis that you yourself linked in faux support of your claims made a point of noting that all of the studies were fatally and irretrievably flawed, for exactly the reason I stated. Don't you even believe your own references?

As for the "studies that are much worse" which you say I've been "pushing," I'd be curious to know -- since your claims so far have a track record of zero -- precisely which ones those are, what constitutes "pushing" them, and what exactly makes them "much worse." I did link one study (singular) that turned out to have been discredited, and it was me (not you) who discovered and posted that fact.

So, here's an idea. Instead of trying to capitalize on my intellectual honesty, how about showing some of your own?

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

I would say that the most pertinent question is think there is a god, what is your evidence? ...the data as bad as it may be is consistent with a phenomenon that's all in our heads and not consistent with the divine intervention of an omnipotent being.

When you make the bald claim that "prayer doesn't work," the subject of that claim is prayer, not God. And the studies are NOT "consistent with a phenomenon that's all in our heads." Without a control group, absolutely no conclusion can be drawn from them. They're worthless.

But hey, since you bring it up, here's a pertinent question about divine intervention: How would you distinguish events that came to pass because of divine intervention from events that came to pass just by chance? Since you appear to think it's possible to make such a discrimination, what would be required? Flashes of eerie light? Strange sounds? A divine grope of your ass? What?

Too, in answering the question, are you relying on your own firm theological knowledge, or something you've read? And in either case, how do you propose to tell the difference between God not existing and the theology you're relying on, or your interpretation of it, being wrong?

I'll be looking forward to hearing your insight on this matter.

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 2/18/2012 9:06:24 AM >

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RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/18/2012 8:46:21 AM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LanceHughes

And the MAIN reason it is "so worn out," is that it is the truth and effective and useful...

ETA:
* I love their recent billboards showing three "regular" folk each with "I'm a Mormon" under a face-shot. I am SOOOOOooooooooo......... tempted to get up there and deface the words, removing the center 'm' leaving "I'm a Moron."

It certainly isn't true, and it's usefulness is limited to Mormons.

Religions and their pantheons have always been culturally conditioned. The reason most people don't believe in Zeus today is because they're not ancient Greeks. It's not an answer to the question of why someone doesn't believe in ANY deity AT ALL.

K.

(in reply to LanceHughes)
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