RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? (Full Version)

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GotSteel -> RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? (2/18/2012 12:05:45 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
Prayer harms no one. Even the study you last cited could not point to a cause of harm in the levels of stress.


Prayer as a meditation exercise comes with baggage that other meditation exercises don't. I think that less is more on this one.

[image]local://upfiles/566126/37F1458C584D499F9BEE91807B52A717.jpg[/image]



Kirata -> RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? (2/18/2012 1:26:49 PM)


Decided not to bother trying to keep up appearances anymore, eh? [:D]

K.



GotSteel -> RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? (2/18/2012 2:41:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
Decided not to bother trying to keep up appearances anymore, eh? [:D]

quote:


You're quite the bag of tricks. Too bad that's all you've got.





Yachtie -> RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? (2/18/2012 3:30:01 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LanceHughes

quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie
quote:

ORIGINAL: LeaderAndLover
I contend that we are all atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours

That is so worn out.

And the MAIN reason it is "so worn out," is that it is the truth and effective and useful.

If you're tired of hearing it, come up with a good strong answer to it and it will go away.



Firstly, it's anything but truth and effective and useful.

Second, it keeps coming back (see yourself) despite being thoroughly trounced.

But anyway, I find your response worthy of at least a cut and paste to one trouncing. re: to the one less god argument (Stephen Roberts)-

2. That's a reasonable question. Yes, I do believe in the literal existence of intelligent and supernatural beings that are not the Creator God and may or may not seek human worship. Some of the pagan gods in the written historical record are these creatures whereas others are mere human invention. The Bible describes both kinds. I would put Zeus and Amaterasu in the fictional category and Baal, Wotan, and Damballah Wedo in the non-fiction one based on the behavior of their human worshippers. As I have repeatedly written, atheists like Roberts and even some Christians fail to make the vital distinction between "God" and "gods". There are many gods but only one Creator God who merits our worship and who sent His Son to die on our behalf.

Please note that one needn't believe in the existence of either the Christian God or the pagan gods to understand that the distinction renders Roberts's argument invalid.

So since you believe in the validity of the one less god argument, which one "less" do you not believe in?

Your one less god argument is such an old canard. Do yourself a favor and put it in the trash where it belongs.



Rule -> RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? (2/18/2012 3:57:43 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
Prayer harms no one. Even the study you last cited could not point to a cause of harm in the levels of stress.

Prayer as a meditation exercise comes with baggage that other meditation exercises don't. I think that less is more on this one.

Quite.

In fact the pagan gods and the Creator did his utmost to stop people from praying. The Buddha was celebrated by the pagan gods for his insight that all suffering comes from wanting things and that it therefore is best to not want anything. The Buddha was rewarded by spending two months in Heaven, I think. (Perhaps it was a shorter period.)

The Creator when Mohamed met him got Mohamed as far down as for people to pray not more than five times a day. Mohamed was rewarded by spending two days in Heaven, if I recall correctly. (Notice the formulation: praying less than five times a day - like zero times - is also okay.)



LeaderAndLover -> RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? (2/18/2012 8:41:01 PM)

the bit that gets me is the bible talks about god laying waste to entire civilisation/cities and he's the good guy but the devil (who god created) only kills about 10 people and he's the baddy

also, if the entire universe was created to only hold adam and eve, didnt he go a bit overboard creating a universe several billion light years across all to put some pretty lights in the sky

and if god created the universe, wouldnt the universe follow the rules as set down in the bible, eg. earth is at the centre



Rule -> RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? (2/18/2012 9:02:11 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LeaderAndLover
the bit that gets me is the bible talks about god laying waste to entire civilisation/cities and he's the good guy but the devil (who god created) only kills about 10 people and he's the baddy

That is partly ass-kissing by the Jews. "He is our god, so we kiss his ass". Lots of USA citizens do the same with regard to their president. Idem the North Koreans with theirs, as amply demonstrated a few months ago.

However, whenever a new pagan god gains the throne and tries to introduce improvements in our species and in the human condition, parts of humanity resist and oppose those changes, which is characteristic of animals who per my definition will always follow their instincts and conditioning (as for example populations who circumcise their male offspring). The only way to deal with such animals is to eradicate them. (People in Spain appear to have quite a chip on their shoulders as regards the eradication of the South American Indians. One Spaniard during the past year justified it by saying that those Indians were not like ordinary humans - and I am rather inclined to believe him.)

As for Satan, his function is to keep the human species healthy and prosperous.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LeaderAndLover
also, if the entire universe was created to only hold adam and eve, didnt he go a bit overboard creating a universe several billion light years across all to put some pretty lights in the sky

That is an erroneous interpretation of that part of the Old Testament.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LeaderAndLover
and if god created the universe, wouldnt the universe follow the rules as set down in the bible, eg. earth is at the centre

Actually, in a spiritual sense the ruling pagan god is the center of the (human) universe, as demonstrated by Krishna when he walked around his ruling pagan god.



Kirata -> RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? (2/19/2012 1:43:13 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LeaderAndLover

the bit that gets me is the bible talks about god laying waste to entire civilisation/cities and he's the good guy but the devil (who god created) only kills about 10 people and he's the baddy

also, if the entire universe was created to only hold adam and eve, didnt he go a bit overboard creating a universe several billion light years across all to put some pretty lights in the sky

and if god created the universe, wouldnt the universe follow the rules as set down in the bible, eg. earth is at the centre

The Bible represents a vast collection of texts which, were they not presented to us in a single volume, nobody would imagine could possibly be assembled into one.

Stories with parallels in traditions outside the Bible are told and re-told without even internal agreement. Deities with markedly different characteristics are combined into one, and sometimes not even combined: The deity of the first creation story is irreconcilably different in character from the one depicted in the second. Some of the texts got mixed up, renamed, and included twice. II Kings 19 and Isaiah 37, for example, are identical word for word. It is, on the whole, an unmitigated mess.

But, that is to be expected of a collection of writings that attempted to include all of the texts available at the time. It only causes a problem when people perversely insist on interpreting it as a coherent whole; or worse, on reading it literally. The former, however, can benefit from the mitigating effect of prioritizing the more beautiful and elevated aspects over the lesser, whereas the latter reflects only the unredeemable ignorance of a certain type of Fundamentalist and his rabid Atheist cousins.

Like any collection of texts, some may inspire you. Others you may detest, and if they were individual folios you would consign those to the fire without second thought.

K.



tazzygirl -> RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? (2/19/2012 7:49:29 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
Prayer harms no one. Even the study you last cited could not point to a cause of harm in the levels of stress.


Prayer as a meditation exercise comes with baggage that other meditation exercises don't. I think that less is more on this one.

[image]local://upfiles/566126/37F1458C584D499F9BEE91807B52A717.jpg[/image]


I will ask... where is "prayer" in your photo?




PeonForHer -> RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? (2/19/2012 8:04:02 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LeaderAndLover
the bit that gets me is the bible talks about god laying waste to entire civilisation/cities and he's the good guy but the devil (who god created) only kills about 10 people and he's the baddy


There's also the small point about God creating an entire natural system in which any one creature can only survive at the expense of the fear, pain and eventual death of another creature. That always did seem a little on the nasty side to me. Frankly, I think that if there is a God, he may be a bit of a git.




SoftBonds -> RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? (2/19/2012 8:40:39 AM)

Mal-2 was once asked by one of his Disciples if he often prayed to Eris. He replied with these words:

No, we Erisians seldom pray, it is much too dangerous. Charles Fort has listed many factual incidences of ignorant people confronted with, say, a drought, and then praying fervently -- and then getting the entire village wiped out in a torrential flood.
(PD 14:1-2)



SternSkipper -> RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? (2/19/2012 2:34:47 PM)

Just checking in on this thread... Anybody prove or disprove God yet?

Or is there some kind of attempt at a post record going on here?




GotSteel -> RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? (2/19/2012 3:15:23 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
I will ask... where is "prayer" in your photo?

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
Prayer as a meditation exercise comes with baggage that other meditation exercises don't. I think that less is more on this one.




tazzygirl -> RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? (2/19/2012 5:43:59 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
I will ask... where is "prayer" in your photo?

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
Prayer as a meditation exercise comes with baggage that other meditation exercises don't. I think that less is more on this one.




Ah so now we speak of baggage instead of prayer.

You choose a group, Westboro, that most christians denounce as being nuts, for being your poster children.

Unwittingly, you also proved my point that you cannot tell when someone is religious or someone is political. Westboro is a perfect example of using religion to push a political issue.

That has nothing to do with prayer. But good try.



SoftBonds -> RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? (2/19/2012 6:39:35 PM)

I think that if there is an all powerful creator, that the odds of a group of primates on a backwater world in a smallish galaxy figuring out enough about that creator to matter are pretty slim.
I also think the idea that he cares enough about what that group of primates think about him to punish anyone for thinking the wrong thing is pretty megalomaniac delusion for those primates to hold.



tazzygirl -> RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? (2/19/2012 6:43:46 PM)

And yet, according to many on these threads, your thoughts are completely valid, and anyone who disagrees with you is a nut case.

Care to comment?



SoftBonds -> RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? (2/19/2012 6:51:57 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

And yet, according to many on these threads, your thoughts are completely valid, and anyone who disagrees with you is a nut case.

Care to comment?


As a nutcase myself, while I agree that anyone who disagrees with me is a nutcase, anyone who agrees with me is also a nut case.
All thoughts are valid, in fact, I kinda like Scott Adam's idea that ideas are viruses, and we are carriers.
Regarding religion in general, and Christianity in particular, I once agreed to a deal with a friend that after 1 year passed for each attempt to convert me, I would become a Christian. I kinda lost count, but if God wants me, he's gonna have to let me live longer than Lazarus.
Still don't understand why any Christian thinks that shoving their beliefs in my face would lead me to convert, the only time that strategy worked was when they killed everyone who didn't convert. I would like to think we are past inquisitions.
If I do discover that there is a God, and that he is such a whiny baby that my belief in his existence/characteristics is more important to him than my actions in life, then I will slap him/her soundly across the face on my way to hell. There to hang out with folks like Twain and Ghandi while the "good Christian people," like Dahmer and Hitler enjoy me not being around.
Bah, didn't mean to get into the thread, was trying to be lighthearted... Sorry, in a bad mood today.



TheBlank -> RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? (2/19/2012 7:21:11 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: SternSkipper

Just checking in on this thread... Anybody prove or disprove God yet?



Probably but only to their own satisfaction. I was convinced by the tail, myself. Okay, so it's not prehensil or anything, but still.. makes ya think. :D



tazzygirl -> RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? (2/19/2012 7:27:41 PM)

quote:

Regarding religion in general, and Christianity in particular, I once agreed to a deal with a friend that after 1 year passed for each attempt to convert me, I would become a Christian. I kinda lost count, but if God wants me, he's gonna have to let me live longer than Lazarus.

Still don't understand why any Christian thinks that shoving their beliefs in my face would lead me to convert, the only time that strategy worked was when they killed everyone who didn't convert. I would like to think we are past inquisitions.


Depends on what you mean by shoving it in your face. When I am out and about, I am never alone. I ride public buses. I never have someone ask me if I found the lord. I really have to question where people hang out that they are running into others trying to convert them into anything.

If you are talking about billboards and ads, you will also have to accept that atheism is just as guilty of that as well. Churches... private property. Them advertising by signs on their own property is no different that a strip club, sex toy shop, or even a college doing the same.



SoftBonds -> RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? (2/19/2012 8:42:45 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

Regarding religion in general, and Christianity in particular, I once agreed to a deal with a friend that after 1 year passed for each attempt to convert me, I would become a Christian. I kinda lost count, but if God wants me, he's gonna have to let me live longer than Lazarus.

Still don't understand why any Christian thinks that shoving their beliefs in my face would lead me to convert, the only time that strategy worked was when they killed everyone who didn't convert. I would like to think we are past inquisitions.


Depends on what you mean by shoving it in your face. When I am out and about, I am never alone. I ride public buses. I never have someone ask me if I found the lord. I really have to question where people hang out that they are running into others trying to convert them into anything.

If you are talking about billboards and ads, you will also have to accept that atheism is just as guilty of that as well. Churches... private property. Them advertising by signs on their own property is no different that a strip club, sex toy shop, or even a college doing the same.

Hmm, examples of shoving it in my face.
"The war on Christmas."
Prayer in Schools, (the people who are trying to get it back, I know it isn't currently the case)
Cutesy little e-mails that are about god and that "no one could possibly be offended by."
Folks who try to draw me into a "deep and meaningful soul searching conversation," when I say something flippant on a religion thread.
Basically anyone who tries to get me to believe as they do, no matter how they try to act like they are "just trying to understand my opinion."
Opinions are like assholes, everyone has one, and trying to put your fingers in someone else's is generally going to annoy that person. You believe, I don't, and I don't have a problem with you believing if you are willing to just leave me alone on it.



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