RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence?

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Rule -> RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? (2/4/2012 9:25:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Fightdirecto many atheists I have met - with their over-blown sense of mental, moral and intellectual superiority over anyone who is not an atheist. Many atheists I have encountered are bigoted in their non-belief. A few are. By far not all atheists. In fact, there were two frequent posters on CM once who were such bigoted atheists. I truly liked reading their intelligent posts, but eventually I decided to Hide their posts from my view as their mental deficiency did not become them. Like most of the about eighty nicks I have on Hide, they some time later disappeared from the forums. I do not know what became of them. (There are a handful who are still active despite me having put them on Hide, though. Their intransigent behavior amazes me, I admit.)

FrostedFlake -> RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? (2/4/2012 9:27:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GotSteel quote: ORIGINAL: FrostedFlake You seem not to have read the entire post. Let me cut it down to the essentials for you. No, I'm familiar with the cosmological argument. My point is that even if one grants you the argument up to the point of there being a first cause it's an unfounded assumption to label said first cause "the creator". Your statement "faith is a requirement" would seem to denote some recognition of this problem but unfortunately instead of discarding the argument as faulty at this point you go on to make the claim "In fact, there is no requirement BUT faith". Please consider that the concept "there is no requirement BUT faith" is anathema to your desire as expressed here: quote: ORIGINAL: FrostedFlake I have said before and now say again, if religion were a form of learning instead of a form of politics, theologians would travel the world to talk to one another. To share ideas, thoughts and facts. To come together to collectively enjoy the knowledge contributed by each. 1/ "it's an unfounded assumption to label said first cause "the creator"." This statement is utterly senseless. It isn't even wrong. 2/ "Your statement "faith is a requirement" If you read what I wrote you did not read it correctly. Faith is required to define God. Gods' existence is demonstrated by yours. Unless you suppose you made yourself, you trace you existence back to that first cause. 3/ " Your statement "faith is a requirement" would seem to denote some recognition of this problem but unfortunately instead of discarding the argument as faulty at this point you go on to make the claim "In fact, there is no requirement BUT faith". " Out of context, improperly interpreted and apparently intentionally so on both counts. (drum roll please) quote: Please consider that the concept "there is no requirement BUT faith" is anathema to your desire as expressed here: quote: ORIGINAL: FrostedFlake I have said before and now say again, if religion were a form of learning instead of a form of politics, theologians would travel the world to talk to one another. To share ideas, thoughts and facts. To come together to collectively enjoy the knowledge contributed by each. I bolded to active phrase. I hope you can see it now. Now to take the offensive, I have no more respect for you, Mr. Steel. Your style of debate is to mangle the opponents words and then pretend to wisdom you do not posses. Good day sir.

sighdream -> RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? (2/4/2012 9:28:07 PM)
God is defined by the Quantum Hologram.

Trismagistus -> RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? (2/4/2012 9:30:10 PM)
jesus built my hotrod

Rule -> RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? (2/4/2012 9:32:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FrostedFlake I have no more respect for you, Mr. Steel. Your style of debate is to mangle the opponents words and then pretend to wisdom you do not posses. He has got me on Hide. lol [8D]

GotSteel -> RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? (2/4/2012 9:39:58 PM)
That conversation only contained an edited version of my statement, hopefully looking at the whole thing will make my position more clear. quote: ORIGINAL: GotSteel Keep in mind that the mainstream Christian concept of a god includes there being a benefit to being Christian (God answers prayers). Any concept of god that interacts with reality most certainly is not "a matter of faith", it falls within the purvue of science. Such concepts are testable and do fail. Christians tend to like throwing around the term non-falsifiable as though it's a magic word that relieves them of any responsibility to justify their assertions. The problem with this (among others) is that they rarely actually believe in a non-falsifiable god. This fits with most Americans' views: 92% say there is a God and 83% say this God answers prayers http://www.usatoday.com/news/religion/2010-05-05-prayer05_ST_N.htm The majority are claiming a concept of god which is not only immensely testable but which has been tested and has failed.

FrostedFlake -> RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? (2/4/2012 9:46:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl quote: If there is indeed a true religion then by that fact there can be only one. On this planet alone there are thousands and if you will count the defunct religions, millions of religions, only one of which could possibly be right I dont agree with this. I dont believe there is a "true religion" or only one way to have faith. It is interesting you should disagree with me and then go on to assert the very points I made. 1/ There is no true religion. (Edit : this includes atheism. Atheism is a much a religion as any other. It is a belief system.) 2/ Faith, by definition, is what you want it to be.

FrostedFlake -> RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? (2/4/2012 9:47:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Rule quote: ORIGINAL: FrostedFlake I have no more respect for you, Mr. Steel. Your style of debate is to mangle the opponents words and then pretend to wisdom you do not posses. He has got me on Hide. lol [8D] Who has you on 'Hide"?

tazzygirl -> RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? (2/4/2012 9:52:12 PM)
Oh please, how many times on these boards has it been said that someone who believes is crazy? quote: Well it was atheist in the sense that the State took the place of God in it's crazy religion. http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=3949630 quote: God is considered a "someone who created the universe" by 99,99% of the people who believe in It, and by at least 95% of the rest. Language is there to serve people, not to serve the crazy interests of some weird intellectuals. http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=3959715 And whenever the crazy religious fundamentalists try to impose their religious law on everyone else, I get concerned. http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=3845848 quote: is PREDICATED on crazy extremist religious beliefs, it's pointless to confront the outcome of those beliefs without resolving the root-cause. http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=4020843 And my favorite... quote: But then there are the "Type 2" atheists (so to speak) who are ever ready to level their finger at the unwashed and proclaim the revealed wisdom that "THERE IS NO GOD!" with all the righteous vigor of a Sunday morning preacher. They are assholes, of course, nothing more or less than a pestilent bunch of inquisitorial priests from the Sacred College for the Propagation of Materialism, piously devoted to stamping out heresy wherever they find it, and due no more respect than their equally crazy (though generally better coiffured) Sunday morning counterparts. http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=3659950 So, yes, I can see the thought of mental hospitals in some peoples' minds. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=haBLjVqrrjM A three part series on why religion is a mental disorder. http://uk.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20061223032630AAaRG9L LOL... the responses to this question are a perfect case in point.

DaddySatyr -> RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? (2/4/2012 9:58:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Fightdirecto Oddly enough, the primary reason I am NOT an atheist is because of the many atheists I have met - with their over-blown sense of mental, moral and intellectual superiority over anyone who is not an atheist. Many atheists I have encountered are bigoted in their non-belief. My favorite was the atheist of my aquaintance who called for anyone who was not an atheist to be institutionalized in a mental hospital since not being an atheist was clearly a sign of mental deficiency/mental illness. I was raised in a very activist (at my time) religion. I was what is called a "seda vacantist" (an "empty seater") a "part" of the Catholic church that didn't cotton to the changes of Vatican II. The same group of which Mel Gibson's dad was a member. The Society of Saint Pius V. We followed the rules from 1958 (Saint Pius XII) and earlier because the other "popes" were "tainted" (I'll explain the reasons to anyone that wants to know, privately). Anyway, we were *encouraged* to read the doctors of the church, canon law, and Catholic histories. It was through these readings (and some actions by the church) that I came to doubt everything in which the Vatican was involved. Part of what I kept reading about was the "Magdelene Heresy". I promise not to go into all of it but, at the very root of that "heresy" is the "Gnostic Gospels", found at Naj Hamide (or some such) in the 40s or 50s. In those writings, we find some things that the CoR would rather people didn't know (hence their attempt to hide it). Many people (whether they espouse a faith or not) would balk if I suggested that some of these writings indicate that Jesus was the first "Womens' Lib"er (but, he was). Essentially, I am in that group of people that some would call "Gnostic Christians" (I'll explain that, privately, also for those who may want to know). I told you all of that to tell you this: I have met some people who, obviously are over zealous plus. That's a given but, to think that there isn't the same phenomenon on the opposite end of the spectrum is silly (It's why I quoted your post, Fight. It spurred me into action). I have met people that identify as "atheist" and "Agnostic" who, by everything they say, are neither. They are bent on wiping out the belief in a Supreme Being, everywhere. I've had some tell me that it bothers them that I pray over my food. It *bothers them* ? Why? It's offensive? How? If someone tells me they believe in little green men from Mars. It doesn't offend me. I think the belief is pretty silly but I keep that to myself. I don't feel the need to wipe out their belief in little green men and their belief in those little green men is not "offensive" to me. Why then do these people seem bent on destroying all belief in a Supreme Being? I won't call them "Atheist" or "Agnostic" because they're not. They're "God haters". They have this deep-seeded need to abolish any and all belief in *anything* that may be omnipotent. Why? These are the same people who will give plenty of chin music to "Live and let live" whenever an attempt to "force" a certain credo on people occurs but there's very little of that in their own practice. I have no issue with people who believe in God. I do believe in a God but, it's not the same one that most "Christians" would worship. I have no issue with anyone that doesn't believe in God. It doesn't matter to me. I have issue with two people in the "religious" spectrum ... 1) Those that want to kill in the name of God B) Those that want to "kill" God. Peace and comfort, Michael

tazzygirl -> RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? (2/4/2012 10:07:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FrostedFlake quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl quote: If there is indeed a true religion then by that fact there can be only one. On this planet alone there are thousands and if you will count the defunct religions, millions of religions, only one of which could possibly be right I dont agree with this. I dont believe there is a "true religion" or only one way to have faith. It is interesting you should disagree with me and then go on to assert the very points I made. 1/ There is no true religion. (Edit : this includes atheism. Atheism is a much a religion as any other. It is a belief system.) 2/ Faith, by definition, is what you want it to be. 1) I disagree with. For everyone, there is a true religion. People worship in different ways, yet for each person, there is only one way. Atheists do have beliefs... but theirs are founded in science. Without a scientific reason, they do not have any belief/faith. 2) Faith, by definition.... (a) : firm belief in something for which there is no proof (b) : complete trust ..... and must have those elements or its not "faith". So it cannot be whatever one wishes them to be as a result. You could argue someone has "faith" the sun will rise every morning. But, in reality, its been proven that it has in the past. As a result, there is no reason to believe that course, scientifically, will change. That is not a faith by definition.

Kirata -> RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? (2/4/2012 10:08:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr Why then do these people seem bent on destroying all belief in a Supreme Being? I won't call them "Atheist" or "Agnostic" because they're not. They're "God haters". They have this deep-seeded need to abolish any and all belief in *anything* that may be omnipotent. Why? Well, for Freud that question would be a softball. [:D] K.

shylilbear -> RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? (2/4/2012 10:11:01 PM)
Isn't debating whether or not God came first, or if He Himself was created, kind of like the whole chicken or the egg debate? If God didn't create life, and we were formed by pure chance, where exactly did all the matter come from that made up the primordial soup that we supposedly came from? Where did the orginal atoms or whatever come from? There was a study done involving prayer and whether or not it actually had any effect on helping patients recover from illness/injury. The patients were split into two groups. One group was prayed over, the other was not. None of the people were told which group they were in. The people doing the praying were not from just one religion, so they may not have been praying to the same God. After the study was done, they discovered that patients who were prayed for DID recover faster. As far as I'm concerned, that does point to there being some sort of divine entity out there. I have also been through too much in my life to deny the idea that there is a God out there. I believe everything happens for a reason, and I've come to believe there is no such thing as coincidence. I feel that whatever form God takes is an individual thing, but I really believe that there IS something out there.

Kirata -> RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? (2/4/2012 10:30:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: shylilbear Isn't debating whether or not God came first, or if He Himself was created... Actually, there is no debate. The question embeds a category error. The divine is predicated as being eternal, i.e., existing independently of time. Only things IN time have a "beginning" (and an end). K.

FrostedFlake -> RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? (2/4/2012 10:34:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl quote: ORIGINAL: FrostedFlake quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl quote: If there is indeed a true religion then by that fact there can be only one. On this planet alone there are thousands and if you will count the defunct religions, millions of religions, only one of which could possibly be right I dont agree with this. I dont believe there is a "true religion" or only one way to have faith. It is interesting you should disagree with me and then go on to assert the very points I made. 1/ There is no true religion. (Edit : this includes atheism. Atheism is a much a religion as any other. It is a belief system.) 2/ Faith, by definition, is what you want it to be. 1) I disagree with. For everyone, there is a true religion. People worship in different ways, yet for each person, there is only one way. Atheists do have beliefs... but theirs are founded in science. Without a scientific reason, they do not have any belief/faith. 2) Faith, by definition.... (a) : firm belief in something for which there is no proof (b) : complete trust ..... and must have those elements or its not "faith". So it cannot be whatever one wishes them to be as a result. You could argue someone has "faith" the sun will rise every morning. But, in reality, its been proven that it has in the past. As a result, there is no reason to believe that course, scientifically, will change. That is not a faith by definition. Ah! I see what you are saying, now. But, in fact, God, the prime mover, has a genuine nature. What is it? Does he (it) look like the old man Mike painted on the ceiling of the the Sistine Chapel? Ridicules! But, if you have faith, God can look like that, for you. Alternately, God can look like anything else you might have faith that God looks like. A horse. A fireplug. The second to last pickle in the jar in my fridge. Water. Lightning. A bear. An aircraft carrier. You. Anything at all, if you have faith. Yet, the true nature of God remains what it has always been. Faith does not affect God. It only affects the view of the faithful.

Rule -> RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? (2/4/2012 10:38:14 PM)
The Divine is impartial and cannot act on its own volition. (As that would be interfering with free will.)

tazzygirl -> RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? (2/4/2012 10:52:47 PM)
quote: Ah! I see what you are saying, now. But, in fact, God, the prime mover, has a genuine nature. What is it? Does he (it) look like the old man Mike painted on the ceiling of the the Sistine Chapel? Ridicules! But, if you have faith, God can look like that, for you. Alternately, God can look like anything else you might have faith that God looks like. A horse. A fireplug. The second to last pickle in the jar in my fridge. Water. Lightning. A bear. An aircraft carrier. You. Anything at all, if you have faith. Yet, the true nature of God remains what it has always been. Faith does not affect God. It only affects the view of the faithful. It can also look like a plant, a tree, the sky, the water.. thats my "faith". [;)] "He" is all those things are more.

Kirata -> RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? (2/4/2012 11:12:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Rule The Divine is impartial and cannot act on its own volition. (As that would be interfering with free will.) Well not necessarily. In theistic monism the divine is predicated as being a unity, a wholeness in which all is connected and related, and which, therefore, by virtue of its nature, resists disunity and disorder, moving us, not so much against our free will as in spite of it, towards that at-one-ment and wholeness within which we exist and which is the source of our being. K.

Rule -> RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? (2/4/2012 11:26:44 PM)
So why is it dis-united as in you and me? If it was striving for at-one-ment and wholesomeness, you would not have disagreed with me, but agreed with me. Besides, it is my nature to be right.

Kirata -> RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? (2/4/2012 11:36:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Rule So why is it dis-united as in you and me? If it was striving for at-one-ment and wholesomeness, you would not have disagreed with me, but agreed with me. Besides, it is my nature to be right. Ah well, that's free will for you. It's a bitch sometimes. [:D] K.

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