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talibangelicals threaten violence - 1/31/2012 11:02:55 AM   
GotSteel


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RE: talibangelicals threaten violence - 1/31/2012 12:43:25 PM   
Kirata


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A simple reading of the First Amendment as an English sentence would seem to me to raise the question of whether its mandated separation of church and state was intended to provide a basis for this kind of litigation.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof...

Personally, if a Muslim student had written that piece, beginning it with "Allah, the most Merciful...," I would just take it for the beautiful sentiment it embodies rather than an unconstitutional establishment of Islamic doctrine by the state. And I suspect that any Christians who objected would likely be viewed as religious bigots.

So what's the difference?

K.


< Message edited by Kirata -- 1/31/2012 12:54:50 PM >

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RE: talibangelicals threaten violence - 1/31/2012 1:47:32 PM   
SternSkipper


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Status: offline 		Cranston West, eh? And there's no reports of ACLU floaters in the Pawtuxet yet? Wow, I am impressed... The Alama Mater (till 10th grade) of Raymond 'Baby' Cursio and Rocco ” Boom Boom” Mancini has sure calmed down a lot since I played hockey against them. Father Peter used to say "Boy's don't get all head-up about winning this one. It's an away game and there's a bit of a walk to the bus".


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RE: talibangelicals threaten violence - 1/31/2012 2:40:14 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


A simple reading of the First Amendment as an English sentence would seem to me to raise the question of whether its mandated separation of church and state was intended to provide a basis for this kind of litigation.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof...

Personally, if a Muslim student had written that piece, beginning it with "Allah, the most Merciful...," I would just take it for the beautiful sentiment it embodies rather than an unconstitutional establishment of Islamic doctrine by the state. And I suspect that any Christians who objected would likely be viewed as religious bigots.

So what's the difference?

K.


And if said muslim prayer was on an equally large mural alongside equivalent murals with prayers appropriate to a number of other world religions then the display would be ok. A public school auditorium with a single large mural with the title "School Prayer" containing a very christian prayer is a violation of the establishment clause by the standard laid out in the Lemon test.

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RE: talibangelicals threaten violence - 1/31/2012 3:01:58 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

a single large mural with the title "School Prayer"

I had to do some clicking around to find a picture of the banner. The original story simply described it as, "a prayer a student wrote in 1963." But the photo shows it enshrined as the "School Prayer". And that, I have to agree, is a different matter.

K.

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RE: talibangelicals threaten violence - 1/31/2012 4:46:52 PM   
SternSkipper


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quote:

The original story simply described it as, "a prayer a student wrote in 1963." But the photo shows it enshrined as the "School Prayer". And that, I have to agree, is a different matter.
K.


K is right and there's more, that I remember from the 70s growing up in RI. I think Cranston High West (and maybe Mt. Pleasant in Providence) were embroiled in quite a controversy back in (I think... can't find anything on the web about it, I just remember from local newscasts on JAR and PRI).
   They were the big battlegrounds in the state over prayer in classrooms in RI. Wasn't any kind of deal out in the suburbs and rural areas since we had plenty of Catholic schools and everybody went to em for that superior education. But in the 6 actual cities in RI, public schools reflected the community. Priests were welcome guests, kids could bring their UNICEF boxes to school in the fall and hit everybody up, ETC. And in Providence, over off Blackstone BLVD (Which which along with Warwick Neck were the Jewish strongholds of the state), The Public Schools sort of went dormant during Hannukah.
   Anyway, there were big goings on over prayer in school back then and the Diocese of Providence was very effective in getting parents to polarize and fight back. And I wouldn't be at all surprised if the Diocese wasn't having yet another fist fight with the ACLU, using the parents as the foot soldiers.
   Another factor is that until about 25 years ago, if you weren't an Italian Roman Catholic, you probably didn't come from the band from West Cranston to 'Nort Proh' as they say even today. They've seen an influx of Southeast Asian and Islamic people since that time. So there's more than likely an ethnic struggle going on under the hood that's not being addressed as such.

  


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RE: talibangelicals threaten violence - 1/31/2012 5:10:07 PM   
GotSteel


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Status: offline 		Um, we're talking about a community that has threatened to physically harm a child.

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RE: talibangelicals threaten violence - 1/31/2012 6:20:14 PM   
Edwynn


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Are you aware of other-than-religious imposition on academia going on today, or in some aspects, for 30 years already?  It's out of control, and seemingly no turning back.

The religion of technology is one matter. Academicians being what they are, nobody ventures such silly questions as to how useful or what overall utility is provided in the endeavor; Microsoft knocks, checkbook opens, case closed. Now everybody has to make a Power Point presentation, regardless of subject, regardless of usefulness, regardless of, in fact, imposition on academic concerns and now homework takes twice as long. The idiotic requirement of Power Point for simplest of assignments taketh away what Word (actually useful) giveth.

I am against anything approaching or resembling 'prayer in school,' but, as far as ideological tyranny goes, we need to expand our awareness here, folks. Read some Hesse, read a book or something. Some are trying to revive the religious wars (the OP, as example); understood. But undue and overwrought focus on that seems to have blinded us to more relevant and consequential matters.


Unless anyone thinks that having a 4-5 yr.old child sitting in front of a screen for hours a day and punching buttons and being disassociated from reality and nature at that age is not a problem, that is.

But the item of concern here seems to be whether we allow prayer, or not, before such heinous and inexcusable form of corporate indoctrination, we are to have it then. I think that review of the child labor issue deserves at least as much attention as the prayer issue here.









< Message edited by Edwynn -- 1/31/2012 7:23:32 PM >

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RE: talibangelicals threaten violence - 1/31/2012 8:32:38 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

Um, we're talking about a community that has threatened to physically harm a child.

Actually, I don't see anybody talking about that except you. In fact, I didn't even see anything about a community threatening physical harm to a child in the story you linked. But hey, why quibble over details. Thanks for your contribution.

K.




< Message edited by Kirata -- 1/31/2012 8:57:59 PM >

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RE: talibangelicals threaten violence - 2/1/2012 5:31:48 AM   
kalikshama


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

Um, we're talking about a community that has threatened to physically harm a child.



While threats were made, you might be exaggerating if your info is soley from this article.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/01/27/jessica-ahlquist-prayer-banner-rhode-island-school_n_1237199.html

Weeks after a judge ordered the removal of a prayer banner at a Rhode Island school, the atheist teen at the center of the controversy continues to receive threats as the school board decides its next move.

Since 2010, Jessica Ahlquist had been urging school officials to remove the banner from the auditorium at Cranston High School West.

The 8-foot banner features a prayer a student wrote in 1963 -- a prayer some consider part of the school's history.

On Jan. 11, federal judge Ronald R. Lagueux ruled it was unconstitutional for the banner to hang at the public school, The New York Times reports.

But the fight to remove the banner has come with consequences for the teen.

Ahlquist has encountered online threats and bullying and has even taken some time off from school, WPRO News reports.

Nevertheless, the 16-year-old says she plans on graduating from Cranston West next year.

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RE: talibangelicals threaten violence - 2/1/2012 6:37:26 AM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama
While threats were made, you might be exaggerating if your info is soley from this article.

I originally heard about this during the summer when she brought the lawsuit, I got the update that she'd won from American Atheist who links to a site that has twitter screenshots of some of the threats.

< Message edited by GotSteel -- 2/1/2012 6:38:16 AM >

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RE: talibangelicals threaten violence - 2/1/2012 8:29:20 AM   
Zonie63


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

Um, we're talking about a community that has threatened to physically harm a child.


It's not that surprising, really.

I used to know a guy here in Tucson who would organize protests at various churches. He also had a show on the local public access station which generated a lot of controversy. He had a tattoo on his forehead: "666." He was constantly harassed by the police, and he was beaten up by Christians on numerous occasions because they thought he was "the Devil." He was a devout pacifist and would never fight back or harm another human being. But he was attacked constantly by "Christians" who were obviously not following their own religious teachings. That was his whole purpose: To anger Christians and expose them as hypocrites when they would become violent or aggressive, which is something the religion tells them they're not supposed to do. If they thought he was the Devil, then he would remind them that it's God's task to fight the Devil, not something for humans to be doing.

I thought he was a pretty cool guy, and he even was once invited as a guest speaker to the local chapter of American Atheists. But the Christians really, really hated him. He also used to badger some of the mall preachers at the university, too.

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RE: talibangelicals threaten violence - 2/1/2012 1:03:59 PM   
joether


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Status: offline 		I heard of this a few days ago, and was wondering when it would make it on to this here forum.

I find it curiousily disappointing that not one single educator has taken all of this action and reaction as a fine moment to teach young adults some good civic lessons. Lessons on the US Goverment, 1st Amendment, the origins of 'Freedom from Church and State', and maybe even understanding religious beliefs. Shouldn't that be something taught in schools? Take a real life object or situation (in this case, a prayer on a very large board) that these young minds can see and maybe touch. Link these strange concepts from US History and Social Studies to the object or situation. And then attempt to either answer questions or point the students in the right direction to find the answers for themselves. As I imagine some if not most of them are only barely aware of the 'big picture' surrounding their school. As its already know that ignorance breeds violence, that has happen towards the young lady finding the prayer disagreeable.

Sometimes I wonder why atheists/agnostics are so angered by a christian prayer that they dont instead, create a good spirited concept, phrase, or something of the like and post it right along side the prayer. I would imagine there are christians in that school that are feeling upset by the course of actions, and as young people do when they dont understand nor mature to accept.....lash out. A community that is brought together through understanding and wisdom fair much better during storms than those divided by fear and ignorance.

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RE: talibangelicals threaten violence - 2/1/2012 3:58:32 PM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
I didn't even see anything about a community threatening physical harm to a child in the story you linked.

You're right the link I picked made a reference to the threats but only vaguely.

quote:

ORIGINAL: http://morallowground.com/2012/01/28/atheist-teen-jessica-ahlquist-bombarded-with-death-rape-threats-over-cranston-high-school-west-prayer-banner-lawsuit/
The Rhode Island teen who successfully fought to have a Christian prayer banner removed from her high school has been bombarded with rape and death threats, called “evil” by her state representative and discriminated against by local businesses.


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RE: talibangelicals threaten violence - 2/1/2012 10:46:36 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

You're right the link I picked made a reference to the threats but only vaguely.

Thanks for the new link. I found this statement by Ahlquist interesting:

“The Christian-Catholic prayer may bring comfort to the majority of students in my school but it sends a different message to the large population of students of other faiths, or in my case, none. The prayer’s presence in the school promotes and endorses the ideals of Christianity and the concept of the single heavenly father. As not all students feel that this is true, and I am one of those students, I firmly believe that it should not be on display in a public school and is in direct violation of my and other students’ civil rights… The prayer does not belong in a public school and that is why I have come forward to challenge it.”

I agree that by officially declaring the composition "The School Prayer" (singular, Christian, and to the exclusion of any and all other prayers) an establishment of religion has occurred. But to my thinking, that is where the problem begins and ends. It should not be The School Prayer. It should just be what it is, a gift from a student, one which the school found to embody a beautiful and uplifting sentiment, and chose to display. Nothing more.

But, that is not the focus of Ahlquist's complaint. Indeed, if the years add a Muslim prayer, an Islamic prayer, and a Jewish prayer to the display, contributed by students of those faiths, respectively, Ahlquist's complaint would only be multiplied. Because the substance of her complaint is that her civil rights are being violated by her being forced to suffer exposure to a view different from her own. And in my opinion, that's just tough shit.

K.


< Message edited by Kirata -- 2/1/2012 11:01:11 PM >

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RE: talibangelicals threaten violence - 2/2/2012 4:22:51 AM   
joether


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
I agree that by officially declaring the composition "The School Prayer" (singular, Christian, and to the exclusion of any and all other prayers) an establishment of religion has occurred. But to my thinking, that is where the problem begins and ends. It should not be The School Prayer. It should just be what it is, a gift from a student, one which the school found to embody a beautiful and uplifting sentiment, and chose to display. Nothing more.


This just opens the school up to future lawsuits in the future. If the school has a single student that worships Islam and wants to give a gift in the form of a prayer, the school would be forced to take it or be sued. Not to mention if others in the school objected to that prayer being posted, creating a lawsuit for the school. The point is, the school either sets itself up for future problems or it finds a creative and wise solution.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
But, that is not the focus of Ahlquist's complaint. Indeed, if the years add a Muslim prayer, an Islamic prayer, and a Jewish prayer to the display, contributed by students of those faiths, respectively, Ahlquist's complaint would only be multiplied. Because the substance of her complaint is that her civil rights are being violated by her being forced to suffer exposure to a view different from her own. And in my opinion, that's just tough shit.


The desires of the many out weigh the desire of the one? That is pretty dangerous path to go down as well. If Americans can be singled out under the law by a mob justice, what protects the minority? It all comes down to the arguement present in the courts (if this matter goes to court). Perhaps a compromise needs to take place between the parties involved. Something that all can agree to in which they get something they wanted, but give ground in 'good faith' towards the others. To the wise educator, it could be an amazing chance to teach those kids how civics in the USA should work (hands on experience counts for more than book learning in this case). Would mean cooler heads needing to prevail in an already tense and heated 'discussion'. As to what that might take the form of I cant say.

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RE: talibangelicals threaten violence - 2/2/2012 11:37:02 AM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
It should just be what it is, a gift from a student, one which the school found to embody a beautiful and uplifting sentiment, and chose to display.

I think you're asking a lot from a 16 year old, that she be able to compose a paragraph that you can't manage to misrepresent. At twice her age I have trouble doing that.

The idea that an atheist in a public school in the deep south would expect not to encounter positions other than her own is absurd, she's young but she's not that young. It would however be nice if the school didn't hold one particular position up as "beautiful and uplifting" displaying it prominently and call another position (hers) "evil".

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