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RE: Birthers unhappy with Georgia Ruling - 2/5/2012 8:37:35 PM   
tazzygirl


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Its a ridiculous argument that to have natural born citizenship you must be born in the country to parents only from that country.

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RE: Birthers unhappy with Georgia Ruling - 2/6/2012 5:05:54 AM   
truckinslave


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quote:

How much more natural born can one get?


1. As much more as the Founding Fathers intended.
2. As much more as the de Vattel definition- the only definition of NBC available to the Founding Fathers- demands.
3. As much more as the much weaker definition suggested as possibly acceptable in Minor v. Haperstet demands.

Under Wong, and equating "citizen" and "natural born citizen", anchor babies are NBCs.
That's not a serious position.

Can you at least admit that:
1. Wong does not at any time use the phrase "natural born citizen".
2. There is a reasonable possibility that "natural born citizen" and "citizen" do not mean the same thing? (Actually, Marbury v. Madison requires different meanings; but for the purpose of a reasonable discussion we can start with "reasonable possibility")

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1. Islam and sharia are indivisible.
2. Sharia is barbaric, homophobic, violent, and inimical to the most basic Western values (including free speech and freedom of religion). (Yeah, I know: SEE: Irony 101).
ERGO: Islam has no place in America.

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RE: Birthers unhappy with Georgia Ruling - 2/6/2012 5:18:03 AM   
truckinslave


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quote:

Its a ridiculous argument that to have natural born citizenship you must be born in the country to parents only from that country.


First:
Why is that a ridiculous position when it only includes three of the four criteria given in the only definition of the term avaiable to the Founding Fathers?

Why is it "ridiculous" under any conditions?

Why couldn't the Founding Fathers have expanded the definition to mean the above and that all four grandparents be citizens after 1825, and all four grandparents be natural born citizens, as defined by de Vattel, after 1850?

Clearly the Founding Fathers could have put all sorts of criteria into the definition had they so desired....

Second:
Many people consider other things in the Constitution "ridiculous". The 2nd Amendment, the fact that Washington DC is not a state, the fact that RI gets the same representation in the Senate as Ca, and the very existence of the Electoral College, all come to mind. These things are still the law, regardless of those opinions, until changed by Constitutional Amendment.

So is the requirement that the President be a natural born citizen. We just lack a definition (ridiculous or otherwise) of the term.

Edited to improve clarity and remove a dangling particulate thingie

< Message edited by truckinslave -- 2/6/2012 5:19:28 AM >


_____________________________

1. Islam and sharia are indivisible.
2. Sharia is barbaric, homophobic, violent, and inimical to the most basic Western values (including free speech and freedom of religion). (Yeah, I know: SEE: Irony 101).
ERGO: Islam has no place in America.

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RE: Birthers unhappy with Georgia Ruling - 2/6/2012 5:38:36 AM   
PatrickG38


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Its a ridiculous argument that to have natural born citizenship you must be born in the country to parents only from that country.



It is a particularly absurd argument as the 14th amendment was ratified to make citizens of the slaves almost none of whom had citizen parents (unless they were fathered by the slaveowner, not terribly uncommon)

< Message edited by PatrickG38 -- 2/6/2012 5:41:36 AM >

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RE: Birthers unhappy with Georgia Ruling - 2/6/2012 5:39:58 AM   
Owner59


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"only definition of the term avaiable to the Founding Fathers"

That was OVER 200 years ago......


There`s been a few SCOTUS rulings since the founders created the SCOTUS, to make such interpretations......yes?





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RE: Birthers unhappy with Georgia Ruling - 2/6/2012 5:46:11 AM   
Moonhead


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There have, but few of these can be cited as justification to keep somebody with a darker complexion than TS out of the White House, can they?

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RE: Birthers unhappy with Georgia Ruling - 2/6/2012 5:48:31 AM   
Owner59


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They can try.....

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RE: Birthers unhappy with Georgia Ruling - 2/6/2012 7:09:01 AM   
mnottertail


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Well, we have some proof that  Hamilton, (and only proof of Hamilton) had read and sustained some agreements with  Emmerich de Vattel.  Hamilton had suprisingly little input to the Constitution, he forwarded a plan more in line with the British Government at the time, and was rebuffed at every turn. 

Since he was the most prolific author of the Federalist, and does not speak about the issue, we are left to glean the intent of the clause in light of the actual discourse and statments regarding same.

Clearly, by all accounts, the thrust of the clauses were to prevent foreign born royalty or politicians from becoming citizens thru naturalization processes, and then becoming president, later when the gap was realized vis a vis the VP becoming president, an amendment was installed extending the stricture.

No such stricture is placed upon any other officer of the government, such that if the order of succession were filled with Henry Kissingers and the P and VP died simultaneously sometime in our futures, it might very well come to pass that the part-time Mayor of Dismal Seepage, Iowa would be the President of the United States. 

And that is pretty much the end of the joke, without rosemauling or various tatting in the tweeds or grasping at butterflies.

de Vattel was not the only definition of  'natural born' available, and citizen is fairly well understood by all.

Again, our English friends may be of such polite society that they will not explicate the meaning of 'bar steward in a knocking shop'  but suffice it to say, that Hamilton was 'natural born'. 

Winston Churchill was half American by birth - a fact of which he was deeply proud. In his first address to a joint session of the United States Congress, on 26 December 1941, he teased the assembled Senators and Representatives with the mischievous suggestion, "If my father had been American and my mother British, instead of the other way 'round, I might have got here on my own!"

I believe according to the common meaning of natural born, not only could he have been a member of our congress, but he could have been President of our United States.  (that's whats mischievious, here, because she went to him, not the other way 'round). 


< Message edited by mnottertail -- 2/6/2012 7:37:03 AM >


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RE: Birthers unhappy with Georgia Ruling - 2/6/2012 9:49:19 AM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

de Vattel was not the only definition of  'natural born' available, and citizen is fairly well understood by all.


Considering he never said the words "natural born citizen", its interesting that everyone turns to his writings as an argument.

They cite this passage from his work, the short English title of which is The Law of Nations:

The natives, or natural-born citizens, are those born in the country, of parents who are citizens

Those words, however, are quoted from a translation of de Vattel that first appeared in 1797, 10 years after the Constitution’s ratification. Did the framers know Vattel’s work in the French? If so, there is a problem because the literal phrase “natural-born citizen” is not present in the original French which says:

Les Naturels ou indigènes font ceux qui font nés dans le pays de Parens Citoyens.

For those who don’t speak French, the word “citizen” (Citoyen) appears only ONCE in the sentence.

Given that the phrase “natural born citizen” was not in the French, was it in the English translations available to the framers of the US Constitution? The answer is, “no”. The first English translation (thanks to Mr. Greschak for the images) in 1760 follows:



http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/2009/05/de-vattel-revisited/

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Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
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Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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RE: Birthers unhappy with Georgia Ruling - 2/6/2012 10:24:18 AM   
mnottertail


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Monsieur the Hamilton, born and raised in Nevis and St. Croix, could speak French fluently, having been born of a Hugenot.  He didn't need no stinkin' translators.....

That may be why he, and perhaps (but only perhaps at a very large stretch) Jefferson could have possibly been arsed to bother with de Vattel whatsoever, and Jefferson much later than Hamilton, since he went to Paris to chase girls as our ambassador, much like Franklin before him.

But here is his command of that language from the people involved (because he said he took French at Uni  (he dabbled)).


1784. (Martha Jefferson to Elizabeth House Trist). "I fear we should have fared as badly at the arrival for Papa spoke very little French and I not a word."[2]
1784 August 18. (Thomas Jefferson to William Temple Franklin). "I understand the French so imperfectly as to be incertain whether those with whom I speak and myself mean the same thing."[3]

(and of course there's more..........)

Mon Dieu!!!!   Un Hereng Rouge!!!!!!!!!!

< Message edited by mnottertail -- 2/6/2012 10:30:52 AM >


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RE: Birthers unhappy with Georgia Ruling - 2/6/2012 10:52:16 AM   
tazzygirl


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Considering Vattel, in one place, was deciding that citizenship required only the father to be a citizen, meaning mothers could not pass on citizenship to their offspring, how many of you are still illegal citizens? Unless someone actually had a direct male ancestor apply, and be granted, naturalized citizenship, then, according to Vattel, you are not a citizen of the US.

De Vattel talks about the relationship between individuals and government in Book 1 of The Law of Nations. He describes two types of citizen. In § 212. Citizens and natives. He says: “The natives, or natural-born citizens, are those born in the country, of parents who are citizens.” When de Vattel’s translator uses the phrase “natural-born citizens” (this phrase is not literally in the French language original) he is invoking a principle of natural law, as he shows when saying: “As the society cannot exist and perpetuate itself otherwise than by the children of the citizens, those children naturally follow the condition of their fathers, and succeed to all their rights.” And finally, to emphasize what was said before, de Vattel concludes: “I say, that, in order to be of the country, it is necessary that a person be born of a father who is a citizen; for, if he is born there of a foreigner, it will be only the place of his birth, and not his country.”

This last sentence, that discounts place of birth entirely is somewhat in contradiction to the first which asserts “born in the country” in addition to citizen parents. Note that parents (plural) does not imply two citizen parents, since clearly it is only the father who is considered. Parents is in parallel to citizens (also plural).

The second type of citizenship is discussed in § 214. Naturalization. Of Naturalized citizens de Vattel says: “A nation, or the sovereign who represents it, may grant to a foreigner the quality of citizen, by admitting him into the body of the political society.” These are made citizen by the law of the country or the grant of the sovereign. De Vattel makes it clear that even citizens at birth who are not born of citizen fathers are “naturalized”. He said:

Finally, there are states, as, for instance, England, where the single circumstance of being born in the country naturalizes the children of a foreigner.

Note that de Vattel’s wording is contrary to English law, which describes such a person a “natural born subject”, not a naturalized subject.

How would de Vattel look at the issue of citizenship in the new country of the United States in the case of children born to foreigners there? We have an answer from § 215. Children of citizens born in a foreign country.

It is asked whether the children born of citizens in a foreign country are citizens? The laws have decided this question in several countries, and their regulations must be followed. By the law of nature alone, children follow the condition of their fathers, and enter into all their rights (§ 212); the place of birth produces no change in this particular, and cannot, of itself, furnish any reason for taking from a child what nature has given him; I say “of itself,” for, civil or political laws may, for particular reasons, ordain otherwise. But I suppose that the father has not entirely quitted his country in order to settle elsewhere. If he has fixed his abode in a foreign country, he is become a member of another society, at least as a perpetual inhabitant; and his children will be members of it also.

De Vattel appears to be flexible about citizenship for situations outside his “preferred scenario” where parents, birth place and law all coincide.

We have seen in these other articles:

Natural Born in Georgia
Natural Born in South Carolina
Naturalization Acts of New York (1770)
that the laws in Colonial America, following those of England, considered natural born citizenship based on the country where one was born, without regard for whether ones parents were citizens or not. De Vattel would say that “their regulations must be followed” even though it went against his view of natural law.

Historical aside:Â de Vattel would have considered President Chester A. Arthur a natural born US Citizen according to his view of natural law because the President’s father, albeit a British Citizen when Chester was born, was clearly a permanent resident of the United States (who was naturalized later).

Conclusion
We see that Emmerich de Vattel wrote that according to his understanding of universal natural law, that a person’s allegiance follows that of his father, not the place of his birth. We see that de Vattel admitted only two kinds of citizen, natural born and naturalized. He also understood that not every society agreed with him and that the laws of particular countries may be different, and they must be followed.


http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/2009/03/de-vattel-for-dummies/


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Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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RE: Birthers unhappy with Georgia Ruling - 2/6/2012 2:01:18 PM   
tazzygirl


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Vattel's belief of a "natural citizen" had nothing to do with being "natural born" and instead, had everything to do with a child acquiring that status through the father.

truckin is mistaken to believe that the only definition the founding father's had was Vattel's because he, himself, mentions other countries had other ways of determining that status and they should be adhered too.

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Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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RE: Birthers unhappy with Georgia Ruling - 2/6/2012 2:32:54 PM   
VideoAdminDelta


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Moderator's note.

If your had a post on this thread and notice that it is now gone, it was due to one of the following categories:

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RE: Birthers unhappy with Georgia Ruling - 2/6/2012 2:57:39 PM   
thompsonx


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quote:

it might very well come to pass that the part-time Mayor of Dismal Seepage, Iowa would be the President of the United States.


And this would be a step up or down from the occupants of 1600 pennsylvania ave. for say the past couple of hundred years or so?

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RE: Birthers unhappy with Georgia Ruling - 2/6/2012 3:00:15 PM   
mnottertail


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From the Mayor's viewpoint at least, it would be a decided reduction in stature, I am sure.

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RE: Birthers unhappy with Georgia Ruling - 2/6/2012 3:05:34 PM   
thompsonx


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quote:

Jefferson much later than Hamilton, since he went to Paris to chase girls as our ambassador, much like Franklin before him.


While it is pretty common knowledge that franklin would fuck a trash can if someone would hold the lid for him jefferson,it is my understanding, was kept on a pretty short leash by sally.

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RE: Birthers unhappy with Georgia Ruling - 2/6/2012 3:10:33 PM   
mnottertail


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He had three years of unadulterated adulterations before she came to Paris to give him that ass, and chain him up.



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RE: Birthers unhappy with Georgia Ruling - 2/7/2012 3:56:18 AM   
MrRodgers


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

"only definition of the term avaiable to the Founding Fathers"

That was OVER 200 years ago......


There`s been a few SCOTUS rulings since the founders created the SCOTUS, to make such interpretations......yes?



Well that's just it. It no longer matters what the founding fathers said. I mean after all, [they] revolted as much against the Bank of England's monetary system as anything else. And yet from about 120 years later...here we are.

What matters now is what the courts say and we can forget the founding fathers until that is of course you are usually right wing and don't like what the court ruled.

The federal courts and this court have ruled and that's it...period.





< Message edited by MrRodgers -- 2/7/2012 3:59:51 AM >

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RE: Birthers unhappy with Georgia Ruling - 2/7/2012 3:58:57 AM   
MrRodgers


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

Jefferson much later than Hamilton, since he went to Paris to chase girls as our ambassador, much like Franklin before him.


While it is pretty common knowledge that franklin would fuck a trash can if someone would hold the lid for him jefferson,it is my understanding, was kept on a pretty short leash by sally.

Oh yea...who has such common knowledge ? What a bunch of shit. Where are the diaries of B. Franklin gigolo to the french maiden ?

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RE: Birthers unhappy with Georgia Ruling - 2/7/2012 7:09:50 AM   
mnottertail


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While his exploits of women may have been more self-aggrandizement than real in his later years, he fathered an illegit son who became a Governor of New Jersey, and applied himself assiduously in brothels in his youth, and never married his companion of 44 years...

So, some dirty old man in there, maybe more fiction than fact, but he was the one pushing the image.

So, the on topic part of this is; like Franklins alleged studliness, there is a great deal of untruth and image building in this argument of Vattel and natural born nonsense.

The judge ruled correctly on the issue, without having to bother with a constitutional inquiry....it ain't at that level. 



< Message edited by mnottertail -- 2/7/2012 7:20:04 AM >


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