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What's the issue? - 2/5/2012 5:55:46 AM

DarkSteven

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From another thread:

Conventional wisdom says that the incumbent gets the blame for the economy. Not true now. Bush still gets blame for driving us into the ditch, and Obama gets blame for not really getting us out. And, thanks to Gingrich's tireless efforts, Romney gets blame even though he wasn't even in office, for symbolizing the MBAs who squeeze the jobs out of the economy.

If the economy isn't the issue, what will be?

Obama really can't trumpet the wonders he's done for the economy, because it still sucks. Romney can't say much because his plan will consist basically of saying he's an MBA and knows how to run things. After Gingrich trashed Bain, it would be trivial for Obama to do the same.

So what else IS there? The GOP candidate desperately needs an issue. Demonizing Islam won't work for Romney, although Gingrich might get some mileage out of it if he's candidate. Neither Gingrich nor a Mormon could run on family values.

So what else could there be?

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The small-breasted ones want larger breasts. The large-breasted ones want smaller ones. The straight-haired ones curl their hair, and the curly-haired ones straighten theirs...

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RE: What's the issue? - 2/5/2012 6:30:41 AM

Hillwilliam

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Why would you say that Romney can't run on family values, Steve?

He's stable, no abuse problems, apparently faithful to his wife and family. I mean he hasn't been talking about it but he has certainly been "Walking the walk"

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Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

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RE: What's the issue? - 2/5/2012 6:39:56 AM

DarkSteven

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Because as soon as he did, some of the conservative Christians would start circulating some of the Mormon beliefs.

_____________________________

"You women....

The small-breasted ones want larger breasts. The large-breasted ones want smaller ones. The straight-haired ones curl their hair, and the curly-haired ones straighten theirs...

Quit fretting. We men love you."

(in reply to Hillwilliam)

Post #: 3

RE: What's the issue? - 2/5/2012 6:58:09 AM

Trismagistus

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Yeah, the moment he attempts the family values platform it's going to be polygamy this, magic underwear that, Joseph Smith hit me with a whiffle ball bat, either that or someone, somewhere, will find something we "don't know about" that will be tossed in Romney's face (quotations are for either the possibility that it's real or that it's just made up on the spot to suit a political bias or attention whoring) I think the real issue here is that what we're looking at as a country is a set of situations that all combined add up to a social and economic disaster and we don't have any one candidate who has a clue how to attack it all, Ron Paul would like to start undoing the damage that congress and the president have done to freedom itself, but Romney and Gingrich come off as a lame duck and a gameshow host to me. Meanwhile I can't really confirm whether the accusations that Ron Paul are racist or not are true and it may not even matter in the polls because he isn't the most popular candidate and more and more shit gets piled on him anyway, I'd mention Cain and that other guy but I don't think either have a really good running platform personally. We might be stuck with 4 more years of Obama, a bizarre cluster fuck of a president who has passed so much bizarre antifreedom whackjob legislation (and from a constitutional lawyer no less) in the past year that it would make Orwell vomit then pass out. I think the real issue here isn't which candidate is best, but which candidate is going to put us into a state where our country is ready to stand up and tell the government to go the hell away or die in a fire fastest, because look at the other options. Obama, who passed NDAA, is advocating SOPA, and is although perhaps not personally responsible for the current economic climate certainly did nothing to help it by not holding those responsible accountable, Gingrich, who honestly hasn't to the best of my knowledge come up with a decent proposal for how to tackle any of the problems we're facing and is a member of ALEC which is basically a rewards programming for passing corporate sponsored legislation, Romney, who was quoted as saying literally that he doesn't really worry about the poor and is the only candidate we know has used illegal labor from mexico at home while simultaneously bashing those who illegally employ aliens, and Ron Paul, who I don't think has such a bad platform but has some ties to some ridiculously shitty people. So I personally think the real issue is, that these are the people we have to choose from to lead our country, because holy fucking shit...really?!

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RE: What's the issue? - 2/5/2012 7:25:58 AM

SilverBoat

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Barring some kind of catastrophic gaffe or revelation, much of the GOP's machinery has queued behind Romney and will remain so. That widely publicized poll about Romney having a better chance to beat Obama settled lots of the RNC's intramural squabbling. It remains to be seen, perhaps, how Gingrich plays out his codependent abuse-then-pander routines, but Paul still might split off for an independent run. If something implodes Romney, look for Santorum at the front next.

The rightwing psychopolitical thinktanks have settled on the "Beat Obama" meme as one of their primary 'issues.' Watch the rhetoric at the speeches and rallies, they've pounded that phrase into every propaganda vector they can for years. And it's been driven into the rightwing 'base' voting blocs so thoroughly that it's become dogmatic cant, with a religiously irrational blathering when they're challenged on 'why'?

The economy indicators show modest progress, the troops continue returning from overseas, even though Libya, Iraq and Afghanistan remain gawdawful messes, bin-Laden and a dozen of his top stooges are dead, and the GOP hasn't got much to show except their juvenile party-of-No! obstructionism, which doesn't play well except to their base-lunatics.

... All they've really got at the moment is their usual voodoo-economics con-game class-warfare, and "Beat Obama" with all of its nasty psychological twists into plausibly deniable racist branding.

(in reply to DarkSteven)

Post #: 5

RE: What's the issue? - 2/5/2012 7:36:10 AM

tazzygirl

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quote:

Conventional wisdom says that the incumbent gets the blame for the economy. Not true now. Bush still gets blame for driving us into the ditch, and Obama gets blame for not really getting us out.

I see both of those as accurate.

2008 9.2 9.0 9.1 9.2 9.7 10.1 10.5 10.8 11.1 11.8 12.7 13.5
2009 14.2 15.1 15.7 15.8 16.4 16.5 16.5 16.7 16.8 17.2 17.1 17.1 2009
2010 16.7 16.9 16.9 17.0 16.6 16.5 16.5 16.6 16.9 16.8 16.9 16.6 2010
2011 16.1 15.9 15.7 15.9 15.8 16.2 16.1 16.2 16.4 16.0 15.6 15.2 2011
2012 15.1

http://www.portalseven.com/employment/unemployment_rate_u6.jsp?fromYear=1996&toYear=2012

U6 Unemployment numbers. January, Inauguration, unemployment already at 14.2. Until October (second bolded number) we are still in the last administration fiscal year. At that point, its all Obama. Within a year, before leaving office, unemployment jumped 5%.

People actually expected this to turn around overnight? That its taken 3 years... 2.5 under Obama.. to drop just 2%, makes me wonder how much people actually get how much trouble we were in, the spiral we were heading into. Economists were saying 8 - 10 years to get the economy back on track, yet everyone is demanding instant relief.

Why werent they demanding that of Bush when he was still in office? Does he get a pass simply because he was the President when the bubble burst?

October 2007 8.4
October 2008 11.8
October 2009 17.2

As people say, these numbers dont lie.

U3, the "official" numbers

Oct 2007 4.7
Oct 2008 6.5
Oct 2009 10.0

http://portalseven.com/employment/unemployment_rate.jsp

Does that make them look better? (October is chosen because that month ends the administrative year) Either way, the economy is slowly recovering. Yes, slowly.

< Message edited by tazzygirl -- 2/5/2012 7:37:07 AM >

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RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
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Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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Post #: 6

RE: What's the issue? - 2/5/2012 7:39:18 AM

Fellow

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I think economy is the issue. This is the basis for many other things people care about. The US president selection (calling it elections would be an exaggeration) is somewhat twisted. The candidates avoid saying anything concrete. So called debates are actually designed this way: the candidates make general statements but the details are not discussed. Even Ron Paul does not have much specifics in his campaign. People fear his medicine would kill the patient. It is hard to beat Obama this way. It is clear to everyone Obama is illiterate as finances and economics is concerned. His main tactics is to play different groups against each other (rich vs. poor, 1% vs. 99%, savior of immigrants, ... and so on) at the same time doing nothing to resolve the problems. There is no hope his second term would be any different. I would advise Republicans to come out with some concrete plan. People would accept hard choices (that are actually necessary) if they are convinced the measures lead to more secure and prosperous future. If such approach would be taken Obama would need to confront concrete things and he will be obviously defeated.

(in reply to Trismagistus)

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RE: What's the issue? - 2/5/2012 7:48:51 AM

TheHeretic

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

So what else could there be?

Obamacare, for certain. The Supreme Court will be ruling on it before the election. If they disallow it, the President's signature achievement bombs, if they say the individual mandate can stand, the expanding power of the federal government into the individual lives of the citizenry will be red meat for conservatives, and damn good outreach to struggling middle-class independents.

Welfare vs. work. Now the racebaiters are going to call it "dogwhistling," but the record number of Americans on food stamps isn't an achievement for this administration to be proud of.

National unity. Keep in mind that the speech which shot Obama into the national spotlight, and made him a star, was about ending the partisanship in Washington. Given how that has worked out, it would be easy to take that position out of his hand, and put it right back into his face.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

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Post #: 8

RE: What's the issue? - 2/5/2012 8:03:28 AM

tazzygirl

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quote:

Welfare vs. work. Now the racebaiters are going to call it "dogwhistling," but the record number of Americans on food stamps isn't an achievement for this administration to be proud of.

Not every state is the same. In PA, the asset test was just revised.

http://news.yahoo.com/pennsylvania-set-raise-asset-test-levels-food-stamps-170400409.html

Meaning even more people are eligible. This isnt a federal mandate, its a state by state issue.

The PA Independent reported the original limits for the asset test were listed at $2,000 for people under the age of 60 and $3,250 for anyone over 60. Although, as Philly.com reports, houses and retirement incomes were exempt from the asset test under both plans, items like savings accounts, stocks, and lump sum payments would be counted.

According to a report from the Associated Press, Corbett's officials are going to increase the thresholds to $5,500 for residents under the age of 60 and increase the level for anyone 60 and older or with a disability to $9,000. The previous lower limits would have put Pennsylvania in line with the limits of federal law.

A report from the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette indicates that the levels were raised to account for inflation and cost of living. In addition, the lower levels presented a challenge because the $2,000 and $3,250 level represented property tax and incomes payments held in savings accounts for many people receiving food stamps. Plus, the Post-Gazette article reported that Just Harvest brought up the issue of people on food stamps losing benefits if they managed to save $2,000 would be counterproductive to getting folks off of the program.

The Tribune-Review article mentions that 35 states do not impose an asset test on recipients of food stamps. The article also points out that Food Research and Action Center found that four states raised the minimum allowable amount to $5,000, which puts Pennsylvania a bit above the average

1,444 a month makes a single person in PA eligible.

A family of four making less than 2941 a month is eligible. (2009) 735 dollars a week would keep a family of four off food stamps. 18.75 an hour for one earner. 39,525 a year.

http://www.dpw.state.pa.us/foradults/supplementalnutritionassistanceprogram/snapincomelimits/index.htm

Just because someone is eligible for foodstamps does not point to the federal level... or unemployment. For people to equate this program with unemployment is proving a lack of knowledge about the program itself.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 9

RE: What's the issue? - 2/5/2012 8:14:51 AM

TheHeretic

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
For people to equate this program with unemployment is proving a lack of knowledge about the program itself.

???

Unemployment, Tazzy? It equates to increasing the numbers of people who are living in a state of dependency on government to meet their basic needs.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

(in reply to tazzygirl)

Post #: 10

RE: What's the issue? - 2/5/2012 8:32:23 AM

tazzygirl

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If someone discovered that since they make 30000 a year, gross, for a family of four, they are eligible for foodstamps of $668 dollars, do you honestly believe they would turn it down?

quote:

Food-stamp use has increased 46 percent since December 2008, a month before Obama took office as the economy was still shedding jobs. Total spending has more than doubled in four years to an all-time high of $75.3 billion, a level called unsustainable by Republicans including Gingrich, who has labeled Obama “the best food-stamp president in American history.”

quote:

About 34 percent of food-stamp recipients are white, while 22 percent are African Americans and 16 percent Hispanic, with the rest being Asian, Native American or those who chose not to identify their race, according to the U.S. Department of Agriculture. About half are younger than 18, and 8 percent are older than 60. Some 41 percent of all recipients live in households where family members are employed.

quote:

In a poll released yesterday by the Washington-based anti- hunger organization Food Research and Action Center, most Americans opposed cutting food stamps, with 92 percent of Democrats, 63 percent of Republicans and 74 percent of Independents saying cuts to the program are the wrong way to reduce spending.

http://www.businessweek.com/news/2012-01-25/gingrich-calling-obama-food-stamp-president-draws-critics.html

When you apply for unemployment in PA, you are also directed to the welfare office by the unemployment office. Many here were surprised they were eligible for food stamps. Many of those eligible for food stamps are not eligible for TANF ( old AFDC). Its not the program that either Reagan or Gingrich are familiar with.

Its not putting them into a state of dependency. Its helping to prevent them from falling into one.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to TheHeretic)

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RE: What's the issue? - 2/5/2012 8:38:30 AM

SilverBoat

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And just what, so tell, have the so-called 'conservatives' done with regard to the unemployed, impoverished, etc?

Gutted the finance and banking regulations, cut 'capital-gains' taxes, etc, because according to 'conservatives' that would stimulate business investment, the economy, etc?
... And the net result of the 'conservative' plans has been imploded speculative bubbles in everything from hundred-billions in bandwidth 'futures' to hundred-trillions in credit-swap 'instruments'? Merely a couple-trillion in retirement savings 'vanished' from middle-class accounts only to miraculously reappear in hedgefunds and bonuses? Only twenty-million industrial jobs subsidized to ship overseas with maybe five-million new mc-jobs selling each other the imported crap?

Sure, sure, the 30-years of 'conservative' voodoo-economic trickle-down has really been a success ... At gouging another 20% of the nation's assets and income out of the middle and lower '99%-classes', and squeezing it cleverly into the 1%'s offshore tax-shelters ...

...

(in reply to TheHeretic)

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RE: What's the issue? - 2/5/2012 8:40:00 AM

TheHeretic

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From: California, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Its not putting them into a state of dependency. Its helping to prevent them from falling into one.

Well, now there's some utter Orwellian bullshit.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

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Post #: 13

RE: What's the issue? - 2/5/2012 8:44:06 AM

tazzygirl

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Then it should be easy for you to prove me wrong.

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Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 14

RE: What's the issue? - 2/5/2012 8:56:14 AM

TheHeretic

Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Then it should be easy for you to prove me wrong.

Your statement is ludicrous on it's face. The burden to defend it is entirely on you.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

(in reply to tazzygirl)

Post #: 15

RE: What's the issue? - 2/5/2012 9:03:52 AM

fucktoyprincess

Posts: 2337
Status: offline

I think it is a combination of the economy and the general principle of redistribution (through the specific issues of healthcare and unemployment).

I think the incumbent gets the blame for the economy only if those running against him have a vision that appears, at least, superficially better. Without any real economic and social policies behind them, the Republican candidates do not provide an alternative vision, or even an alternative interpretation of the current condition. Without that, I do not see why a voter would choose a different President just for the sake of having a new President. I think the voters are savvy enough to know that a new body in the White House is not real change. There has to be some vision that people can sign onto. Without that, inertia will set in (which philosophically is the right answer - absent a better solution, inertia is actually preferable).

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RE: What's the issue? - 2/5/2012 9:06:57 AM

slvemike4u

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Nah,proving you wrong on that is sort of like facing a 4th and 20 against a fearsome pass rush(it is Super Bowl sunday)

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Post #: 17

RE: What's the issue? - 2/5/2012 9:09:26 AM

tazzygirl

Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline

Aug 2011 45,794,474 21,723,850 6,130,822,401
Sep 2011 46,268,185 21,938,814 6,263,122,486
FY 2012
Oct 2011 46,227,853 21,969,601 6,235,801,518
Nov 2011 46,133,767 21,926,393 6,209,342,188

http://www.fns.usda.gov/pd/34SNAPmonthly.htm

And, those numbers were boosted by the addition of disaster relief from several states....each state is listed seperately, the total is at the beginning and is as follows....

quote:

FNS Responses to 2011 Hurricanes
As of January 18, 2012, FNS provided over $119 million in Disaster Supplemental
Nutrition Assistance Program (D-SNAP) benefits ($79.8 million to new D-SNAP recipients
and $39.9 million to ongoing SNAP recipients
1
) to help disaster survivors in 5 States in
response to the extended power outages and flooding caused by Hurricane Irene and
Tropical Storm Lee. Approximately 875,451 individuals (467,444 new D-SNAP recipients
and 408,007 ongoing SNAP recipients) in 410,428 households (177,364 new D-SNAP
households and 233,064 ongoing SNAP households) received these benefits.
In total, FNS provided some type of disaster food assistance, including SNAP
replacement benefits and USDA Foods for congregate and household feeding, to
disaster survivors in 108 counties, 11 States and the Territory of Puerto Rico in response
to Hurricane Irene and Tropical Storm Lee.
Specific FNS disaster food assistance responses by State/Territory so far include:

http://www.fns.usda.gov/pd/SNAP%20Disaster%20Summary%20Report.pdf

Gingrich would have been correct to say the number now on food aid is historically high. The number stood at 46,224,722 persons as of October, the most recent month on record. And it's also true that the number has risen sharply since Obama took office.

But Gingrich goes too far to say Obama has put more on the rolls than other presidents. We asked the U.S. Department of Agriculture's Food and Nutrition service for month-by-month figures going back to January 2001. And they show that under President George W. Bush the number of recipients rose by nearly 14.7 million. Nothing before comes close to that.

And under Obama, the increase so far has been 14.2 million. To be exact, the program has so far grown by 444,574 fewer recipients during Obama's time in office than during Bush's.

The number getting food stamps declined by 43,528 in October. And the economy has improved since then.

The economic downturn began in December 2007. In the 12 months before Obama was sworn in, 4.4 million were added to the rolls, triple the 1.4 million added in 2007.

That leaves the economic downturn that began in 2007 — and the agonizingly slow recovery that followed — as the principal factors making more Americans eligible for food stamps. Officials say that another factor is that Americans today are less reluctant to accept aid than before.

USDA researchers said the jump in the participation rate happened because of actions by state governments. In a report released in August 2011, the Office of Research and Analysis said:

USDA: States have increased outreach to low-income households, implemented program simplifications, and streamlined application processes to make it easier for eligible individuals to apply for and receive SNAP [food stamp] benefits. Most States also have reduced the amount of information that recipients must report during their certification period to maintain their eligibility and benefit levels, making it easier for low-income households to participate.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/politics/story/2012-01-18/fact-check-gingrich-obama-food-stamps/52645882/1

Insisting that those on food stamps are dependent is, again, due to a lack of knowledge.

< Message edited by tazzygirl -- 2/5/2012 9:11:21 AM >

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 18

RE: What's the issue? - 2/5/2012 9:12:02 AM

TheHeretic

Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline

You want to take a shot at defending that proposition, Mike? At least you won't go running for the "report post" button if I'm not super gentle calling you on crap.

If we need another thread, so not to hijack Steve's, I'm sure we can make that happen.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

(in reply to slvemike4u)

Post #: 19

RE: What's the issue? - 2/5/2012 9:13:48 AM

tazzygirl

Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline

I defended my own position. Are you going to defend yours?

quote:

At least you won't go running for the "report post" button if I'm not super gentle calling you on crap.

I have never reported one of your posts, not that it matters.

< Message edited by tazzygirl -- 2/5/2012 9:15:18 AM >

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 20

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