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Hawaii Considering Classifying E-Cigarattes with Tobacc... - 2/5/2012 3:14:56 PM   
SternSkipper


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Preamble:
  I realize since non-smokers have either limited or no interest in a matter such as this, know that beyond this point is a post which is basically pro e-cigarettes. you're certainly encouraged to read for informational purposes. I just figured I'd warn you so if the topic annoys you or whatever, you can avoid reading further....

The Hawaiian Legislature is about to vote on a bill classifying E-Cigarattes more or less as Tobacco products. Besides the troubling notion that they could start calling machinery a controlled/taxed "substance", I have an issue with ANYTHING in the form of legislation that complicates or makes more expensive a potential cessation method.
These things not only work very well, they are an enjoyable way out of tobacco addiction.
   I am of course all for keeping minors from obtaining them or e-juice, but there's only so much you can do about that, and there is almost no correlation between taxation of tobacco and 'quitting'.

  
A Raw Copy of the bill is here:

http://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/session2012/Bills/SB2819_.htm

If you would like to read the scheduling regarding a hearings and a possible vote, it's here
http://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/measure_indiv.aspx?billtype=SB&billnumber=2819

If you want to email members of the House Ways And Means Committee and offer any testimony regarding your experience with E-Cigarettes look here:

http://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/committeepage.aspx?comm=WAM

If you would like to read the industry's bit, it's here (one vendor anyway)

http://volcanoecigscom.cmail2.com/t/ViewEmail/r/94AC25EAEDC53322/FDB4F196A50E3E0216B21F2806CB3AEB

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RE: Hawaii Considering Classifying E-Cigarattes with To... - 2/5/2012 7:49:13 PM   
subrob1967


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The government really doesn't want you to quit... they rely on the tax revenues way too much for them to actually support cessation methods, politicians only play lip service to the anti smoking Nazis.

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RE: Hawaii Considering Classifying E-Cigarattes with To... - 2/5/2012 8:14:27 PM   
TheHeretic


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First, we don't call the tobacco tax, a tax on fine paper and a fibrous filter, and I'm going to assume the nicotine it delivers is still derived from tobacco. It is a device/machine that delivers a drug, and that drug is what they are taxing.

Second, don't kid yourself. Nicotine is the addiction, not the particular delivery system. That is secondary, as are the associated rituals. An alternate may help with breaking those habits, but you are still ultimately going to have to go through the nicotine withdrawal phase. The last time I quit, I was down to one piece of nicotine gum every other day, and hadn't smoked a cigarette in 5 weeks. When I shifted completely to regular gum, the cravings were right back to the intensity of the first few days.

That said, I do like the e-cigarettes as an option for things like airplane rides, drives with non-smokers, hotel rooms, long movies that the wife wants to see, and I've got one that lives in my desk drawer at work for those times when I just cannot step outside for five minutes.

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RE: Hawaii Considering Classifying E-Cigarattes with To... - 2/5/2012 8:18:52 PM   
SternSkipper


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quote:

The government really doesn't want you to quit... they rely on the tax revenues way too much for them to actually support cessation methods, politicians only play lip service to the anti smoking Nazis.


Yeah, okay next time maybe you read something from the provided material instead of doing what your accusing politicians of doing above.

I have been smoke free for quite a while as a result of e-ciggs.
And I don't care what politicians think.


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RE: Hawaii Considering Classifying E-Cigarattes with To... - 2/5/2012 8:19:17 PM   
Real0ne


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"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session" ~Mark Twain


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RE: Hawaii Considering Classifying E-Cigarattes with To... - 2/5/2012 8:22:54 PM   
MissAsylum


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

First, we don't call the tobacco tax, a tax on fine paper and a fibrous filter, and I'm going to assume the nicotine it delivers is still derived from tobacco. It is a device/machine that delivers a drug, and that drug is what they are taxing.

Second, don't kid yourself. Nicotine is the addiction, not the particular delivery system. That is secondary, as are the associated rituals. An alternate may help with breaking those habits, but you are still ultimately going to have to go through the nicotine withdrawal phase. The last time I quit, I was down to one piece of nicotine gum every other day, and hadn't smoked a cigarette in 5 weeks. When I shifted completely to regular gum, the cravings were right back to the intensity of the first few days.

That said, I do like the e-cigarettes as an option for things like airplane rides, drives with non-smokers, hotel rooms, long movies that the wife wants to see, and I've got one that lives in my desk drawer at work for those times when I just cannot step outside for five minutes.


Yep...agree with everything written here.

the price of tobacco products make me cringe a bit, but will i quit just because of that?

unlikely.

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RE: Hawaii Considering Classifying E-Cigarattes with To... - 2/5/2012 8:26:46 PM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

First, we don't call the tobacco tax, a tax on fine paper and a fibrous filter, and I'm going to assume the nicotine it delivers is still derived from tobacco. It is a device/machine that delivers a drug, and that drug is what they are taxing.

Second, don't kid yourself. Nicotine is the addiction, not the particular delivery system. That is secondary, as are the associated rituals. An alternate may help with breaking those habits, but you are still ultimately going to have to go through the nicotine withdrawal phase. The last time I quit, I was down to one piece of nicotine gum every other day, and hadn't smoked a cigarette in 5 weeks. When I shifted completely to regular gum, the cravings were right back to the intensity of the first few days.

That said, I do like the e-cigarettes as an option for things like airplane rides, drives with non-smokers, hotel rooms, long movies that the wife wants to see, and I've got one that lives in my desk drawer at work for those times when I just cannot step outside for five minutes.


and they have the justified "right" as you put it to tax drugs how?


_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

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RE: Hawaii Considering Classifying E-Cigarattes with To... - 2/5/2012 8:50:38 PM   
SternSkipper


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quote:

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session" ~Mark Twain


Seems to me Twain had a lot of quotes regarding people who sought self-aggrandizement as well 


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RE: Hawaii Considering Classifying E-Cigarattes with To... - 2/5/2012 8:56:21 PM   
TheHeretic


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Real, why are you putting quotes on the word, "right," as if I had used that word in my post, or referenced the issue you seem to want to discuss in any way?



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RE: Hawaii Considering Classifying E-Cigarattes with To... - 2/5/2012 9:39:29 PM   
SternSkipper


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Thanks for quoting Rich or I'd never have seen his re-invention of the wheel.

quote:

First, we don't call the tobacco tax, a tax on fine paper and a fibrous filter, and I'm going to assume the nicotine it delivers is still derived from tobacco. It is a device/machine that delivers a drug, and that drug is what they are taxing.


Ummmmm ... That's california I guess. not apparently Hawaii ... I would read part of of the bill's text and then look at the standing statute, while delivery methods are included, they classify tobacco and non-tobacco together. The Senator that I spoke with told me "we do it for simplification"<rrrriiiiiiiiight>  Rich and I probably don't disagree on the motivation. My affidavit will be among those read aloud in committee.

quote:

Second, don't kid yourself. Nicotine is the addiction, not the particular delivery system. That is secondary, as are the associated rituals. An alternate may help with breaking those habits, but you are still ultimately going to have to go through the nicotine withdrawal phase. The last time I quit, I was down to one piece of nicotine gum every other day, and hadn't smoked a cigarette in 5 weeks. When I shifted completely to regular gum, the cravings were right back to the intensity of the first few days.


Who said nicotine wasn't addictive???? Gawd... . Try addictive with a CAPITAL FUCKING A

I used e-cigarettes to quit when nothing else had worked for me during most of my adult life. Here's what i think set it apart. It's a series of user based processes that have to be performed by the end user basically a couple times a day in order for it to be a 'good experience' (from a smoker's perspective). Even Rich, perhaps without realizing , but perhaps so, hints at the aspect that helped me.
   He keeps one in his drawer for those times when he can't step outside (probably hurts business with all those people down in the street yelling "jump").
   I found that if I restricted myself from smoking actual tobacco products, that eventually, it became a sufficient hassle that I just slowly stopped. At first I was vaping all the time, later on I would do it more so just when I felt a nicotine fit coming on and then for a while it was just one the way into Boston, after lunch, after dinner and once before bed. And a few weeks after that, I had simply stopped.
  The really odd thing is that when I started doing this the only thing I seriously wanted to do was see if I could switch to the other delivery method.

quote:

the price of tobacco products make me cringe a bit, but will i quit just because of that?
unlikely.


See ... you kind of point to why I don't want the prices of stuff like e-cigarettes and e-juice to go up from taxation... Nicotine addiction is psycho-pharmacologically very powerful and I spent a lot of time 'noticing' my thinking in the early stages of heading towards the e-cigg as a method ... I looked at the really expensive ones (incidentally, as of now there are only about 4 designs of the devices and most are rather similar, with the big differences being materials used, wattage, and threading of the screw-together parts. ... though the volcanoes I used to vape come with some interesting options such as the drip tips and cartomizers which allowed precise control over dosage. 
  But I digress, I balked at the expensive ones cause "what if they suck?" ... I balked at the cheap Chinese imports, because "what if they suck AND fall apart?". See, my addicted psyche may have been afraid to lose it's smoldering friends and fought hard to keep them.
   Now imagine someone who who smokes and thinks about the cost "a little", but is "unlikely to quit because of taxes increases".
      It's just my theory, but I have a good friend who works as a Dr in research surrounding alcohol addiction and he gives it high marks saying it's similar to other behaviors reported by smokers.

Anyway, I hope that fleshes it out better for you.




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RE: Hawaii Considering Classifying E-Cigarattes with To... - 2/15/2012 8:03:34 AM   
SternSkipper


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quote:



ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

First, we don't call the tobacco tax, a tax on fine paper and a fibrous filter, and I'm going to assume the nicotine it delivers is still derived from tobacco. It is a device/machine that delivers a drug, and that drug is what they are taxing.

Second, don't kid yourself. Nicotine is the addiction, not the particular delivery system. That is secondary, as are the associated rituals. An alternate may help with breaking those habits, but you are still ultimately going to have to go through the nicotine withdrawal phase. The last time I quit, I was down to one piece of nicotine gum every other day, and hadn't smoked a cigarette in 5 weeks. When I shifted completely to regular gum, the cravings were right back to the intensity of the first few days.

That said, I do like the e-cigarettes as an option for things like airplane rides, drives with non-smokers, hotel rooms, long movies that the wife wants to see, and I've got one that lives in my desk drawer at work for those times when I just cannot step outside for five minutes.


There's been an update ... So much for the above...

Hawaii Legislation Highlights How E-Cigarette Taxes Are Anything But Productive



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RE: Hawaii Considering Classifying E-Cigarattes with To... - 2/15/2012 8:08:10 AM   
DarkSteven


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

and they have the justified "right" as you put it to tax drugs how?



The government has the right to tax things.  Period.  Are you disagreeing with that right in itself, or are you only disputing the right to tax drugs?


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RE: Hawaii Considering Classifying E-Cigarattes with To... - 2/15/2012 8:24:24 AM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SternSkipper

The Hawaiian Legislature is about to vote on a bill classifying E-Cigarattes more or less as Tobacco products.

While they're at it, they might also want to consider classifying them as explosives.

http://m.weartv.com/news/Exploding_Cigarette

K.

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RE: Hawaii Considering Classifying E-Cigarattes with To... - 2/15/2012 9:05:05 AM   
Yachtie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: SternSkipper

The Hawaiian Legislature is about to vote on a bill classifying E-Cigarattes more or less as Tobacco products.

While they're at it, they might also want to consider classifying them as explosives.

http://m.weartv.com/news/Exploding_Cigarette

K.




Don't they use the same battery as the Chevy Volt?

/sarc

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RE: Hawaii Considering Classifying E-Cigarattes with To... - 2/15/2012 9:16:26 AM   
Kana


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

and they have the justified "right" as you put it to tax drugs how?



This is kinda funny because the rationale behind the cigarette tax (and most sin taxes) is based on incentives, economics style.
The thought pattern is twofold-
1-By taxing the snot out of a product, the govt discourages the use of said product, thus saving the public money and health over a long term period.
2-Few product's are charged at the true social price. For instance, we pay a certain amount to...oooooh, fuel cars...but the price we pay for gas is for extraction, refining, transport and profit, it does not include the secondary cost of pollution caused by the use of said fuel, which, if factored into the up-front cost of the fuel, would make it vastly more expensive. An even better example is plastic water bottles...which now cost little, but if the disposal costs were factored in would cost considerably more.
By adding a tax to these products, the govt can theoretically offset future associated societal costs (Health care for lung patient victims for instance) and charge something closer to the true price. It also transfers the cost of damages to the users, not the general public.
In theory at least.
(Note that I take no side in this particular arena-just pointing out the meme behind it)

Al of which makes this new classification fascinating because, as FF said, e-cigs are designed to stop smoking, to make it healthier and thus to reduce societal costs...
Making this a straight cash grab, not a legit tax based on standard economic theory.
Which kinda decries and undercuts,. as well as makes morally, or at least ethically, questionable, the rationale behind many of these other purported "taxes"

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RE: Hawaii Considering Classifying E-Cigarattes with To... - 2/15/2012 9:45:23 AM   
masternoname


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you have been smoke free so the government should be happy with that

but like this guy said they didn't want you to quit

they wanted you to pay more taxes

now that you quit they are going to come up with new ways to get that money they lost when you quit


quote:

ORIGINAL: SternSkipper

quote:

The government really doesn't want you to quit... they rely on the tax revenues way too much for them to actually support cessation methods, politicians only play lip service to the anti smoking Nazis.


Yeah, okay next time maybe you read something from the provided material instead of doing what your accusing politicians of doing above.

I have been smoke free for quite a while as a result of e-ciggs.
And I don't care what politicians think.



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RE: Hawaii Considering Classifying E-Cigarattes with To... - 2/15/2012 11:02:08 AM   
SternSkipper


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quote:

quote:
ORIGINAL: SternSkipper
The Hawaiian Legislature is about to vote on a bill classifying E-Cigarattes more or less as Tobacco products.
K-
While they're at it, they might also want to consider classifying them as explosives.
http://m.weartv.com/news/Exploding_Cigarette.


Wow... Well I was successful in quitting without getting nuked. Course sice all those fires and explosions from the laptops, I keep waiting for the incident where a guy gets offed by his cell phone.
Thanks for the link.



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RE: Hawaii Considering Classifying E-Cigarattes with To... - 2/15/2012 11:04:27 AM   
SternSkipper


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quote:

you have been smoke free so the government should be happy with that
but like this guy said they didn't want you to quit
they wanted you to pay more taxes
now that you quit they are going to come up with new ways to get that money they lost when you quit


Well you just keep me posted on that one okay?... in the meantime read my latest link ... you'll just jump for joy at how 'right' you were.


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RE: Hawaii Considering Classifying E-Cigarattes with To... - 2/15/2012 2:13:01 PM   
Kana


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Sorry SS-I meant you, not FF.
Getting my CM hippies mixed up :-)

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RE: Hawaii Considering Classifying E-Cigarattes with To... - 2/15/2012 4:58:05 PM   
SternSkipper


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quote:

Sorry SS-I meant you, not FF.
Getting my CM hippies mixed up :-)


That's Okay Kana... hope things have gone well for ya since I last saw ya round these parts.



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