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RE: US unemployment applications drop to a 4-year low - 2/16/2012 1:29:09 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
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Status: offline 		You dont have a cogent question that I am aware of. If you have asked one, it was mired in such cant that I missed it, feel free to ask it simply again.

< Message edited by mnottertail -- 2/16/2012 1:30:47 PM >

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RE: US unemployment applications drop to a 4-year low - 2/16/2012 1:36:59 PM   
Edwynn


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~FR~

Granted, the common meaning of 'fiat money' refers to non-commodity-backed money; one cannot redeem the paper money for a certain -fixed- amount of some commodity. But look at that very important term, '-fixed- amount,' and understand the dictionary meaning of the term fiat, i.e., 'by decree,' and you will see that all money has always been fiat money in the absolute sense. If that were not the case then almost every 'money' transaction would effectively be a barter transaction due to the constantly changing market value of the currency as constantly re-assessed by many different players. We would go to sleep at night having no idea what those coins could by us the next morning.

Gold had value as currency because the government said it did, by decree. Salt had value as currency because the government said it did, by decree. The more meaningful term of currency is 'That Which Is Needed To Pay Taxes,' or, what the government will accept as payment. That, with minor amusing departures in times past, is the only historically and contemporary meaningful description of a currency, commodity-backed or not.







< Message edited by Edwynn -- 2/16/2012 1:50:40 PM >

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RE: US unemployment applications drop to a 4-year low - 2/16/2012 1:39:58 PM   
provfivetine


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail
You dont have a cogent question that I am aware of. If you have asked one, it was mired in such cant that I missed it, feel free to ask it simply again.


Your reading comprehension is on par with that of a 1st grader (though that might be generous). Re-read posts 16 and 18.

Your Words: If you think that in an inflationary period that gold and silver isnt going to also skyrocket, making it even less (what would you call it?) bodunk ( for lack of a better word) proposition than it is today....

My response: Where did I say this? Why do you insist on bringing up something that I never claimed?

[No rebuttal from you, but you change the topic]

Your words: How does getting rid of paper money solve anything at all?

My response: Where did I say I wanted to get rid of paper money?

[no rebuttal from you, but you change the topic]

All you do is use circular reasoning and evade questions. You would make a good politician.

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RE: US unemployment applications drop to a 4-year low - 2/16/2012 1:53:45 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
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Status: offline 		Well, one can say that, and from the ivory tower, tis naught but all true, Ed.

But I know for an absolute certainty, that I can take 4.00 in fiat and .90 in commodity (or 4.90 in all commodity) and walk kitty corner down the street and buy a pack of smokes.

Gonna be able to do that tommorow, as well as yesterday.....but tis a certainty that its a liquid situation, and liquid is the prime point, go get some bacon and eggs and see if you can trade a spanish doubloon (MS45) and get some change back from your McMuffin.

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RE: US unemployment applications drop to a 4-year low - 2/16/2012 2:01:36 PM   
mnottertail


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quote:

ORIGINAL: provfivetine

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail
You dont have a cogent question that I am aware of. If you have asked one, it was mired in such cant that I missed it, feel free to ask it simply again.


Your reading comprehension is on par with that of a 1st grader (though that might be generous). Re-read posts 16 and 18.

Your Words: If you think that in an inflationary period that gold and silver isnt going to also skyrocket, making it even less (what would you call it?) bodunk ( for lack of a better word) proposition than it is today....

My response: Where did I say this? Why do you insist on bringing up something that I never claimed?

[No rebuttal from you, but you change the topic]

Your words: How does getting rid of paper money solve anything at all?

My response: Where did I say I wanted to get rid of paper money?

[no rebuttal from you, but you change the topic]

All you do is use circular reasoning and evade questions. You would make a good politician.



No, it is certainly your comprehension that lacks.....you go look up cogent in the dictionary....

Where did I say you said it?  There are a great many things I can bring up without clearing them with you first or only speaking when spoken to.  And not every response of mine has to be a rebuttal of pointless buncombe that is a series of statements that are unfounded and naught to do with one another or anything endemic or meliorative.  

Thanks, but no thanks, I assert for myself, not behind another.

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RE: US unemployment applications drop to a 4-year low - 2/16/2012 2:14:59 PM   
Edwynn


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I hear you, but the other point aside the liquidity is that though 90 cents commodity today is 90 cents commodity tomorrow and next week too, a given weight of commodity might be 90 cents today but it might be 88 cents or 92 cents next week. A coin cannot be readily adjusted in weight to maintain the 90 cents from day to day so then it must be held there by decree. 

The gold or silver standard that hold such romance for some could only maintain exchange rate par by dint of the countries within the agreement either selling or buying the commodity as needed for that purpose. What was far from steady in the process of maintaining that parity were domestic employment, business economic conditions, crop prices, etc., none of which being worth consideration in the mindset of the powers that be in times past. The late 1800's showed a gradual effective deflation because since currency value was held constant wages and crop prices had to decline in consequence. Not good.

In any case, going off the gold standard and allowing exchange rates to float were one and the same thing for this reason. Countries had eventually evolved to where they actually cared about unemployment and business downturns and got tired of not being able to do anything about it while being held slave to commodity-enforced exchange rates. And even with the considerations of how commodity-backed vs. non-backed currency affects inflation, the bottom line is that there would eventually come a time when the 'GDP/GNP/GNI of the world' expanded beyond what a commodity-backed money supply could accommodate, and so we have reached it. Commodity supply is finite, whereas economic expansion due to the evolution of technology and business practices and of household demographics is, if not infinite, certainly capable of exceeding the limitations of physical materials themselves.




< Message edited by Edwynn -- 2/16/2012 2:56:55 PM >

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RE: US unemployment applications drop to a 4-year low - 2/16/2012 4:28:47 PM   
SternSkipper


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quote:

The number of people seeking unemployment benefits in the U.S. fell to the lowest point in almost four years last week, the latest signal that the job market is steadily improving.


Owner ... Hold this thread... we are required by the TOS to give Provfive a 48 window to go get a chart on the black market that reflects Jimmy Carter had a similar win and was defeated regardless.



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RE: US unemployment applications drop to a 4-year low - 2/16/2012 4:38:01 PM   
mnottertail


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn
I hear you, but the other point aside

(snipped a hella hella post for brevity)


And womp they it is....the old how many furlined rubbers do you need problem....not all commodities are equal in value, or equal in supply, or tangible, or need to be tangible.   Joe six pack drinks beer and leers at women cuz it makes him feel good.....hardly tangible, and in bigger supply (since it is in his mind) than pork bellies, or hundred dollar denominated pieces of paper.

But in all this, there are no magic words or incantations, no franking a value to anything, that will result in some homogenous trade of goods and services in harmony for the aeons.  What we pretty much got is a fancied up way of what it was, is and always will be.  

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RE: US unemployment applications drop to a 4-year low - 2/16/2012 7:27:29 PM   
SternSkipper


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quote:

This growth comes with a price: inflation. It is already picking up.


I tends to to that. Not particularly unique to Obama.



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RE: US unemployment applications drop to a 4-year low - 2/16/2012 8:25:41 PM   
LookieNoNookie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

Gobama!!


http://news.yahoo.com/us-unemployment-applications-drop-4-low-133936693.html


The number of people seeking unemployment benefits in the U.S. fell to the lowest point in almost four years last week, the latest signal that the job market is steadily improving.

Weekly applications for unemployment benefits dropped 13,000 to a seasonally adjusted 348,000, the Labor Department said Thursday. It was the fourth drop in five weeks and the fewest number of claims since March 2008 — six months before Lehman Brothers collapsed and only a few months into the Great Recession.



Please tell me you don't actually believe this shit?

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RE: US unemployment applications drop to a 4-year low - 2/16/2012 8:46:42 PM   
SoftBonds


Posts: 862
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Status: offline 		Donno why there was a conversation about paper money anyway, most US dollars are electronic, not paper... (8-1 ratio last I checked)

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RE: US unemployment applications drop to a 4-year low - 2/16/2012 9:20:52 PM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie


quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

Gobama!!


http://news.yahoo.com/us-unemployment-applications-drop-4-low-133936693.html


The number of people seeking unemployment benefits in the U.S. fell to the lowest point in almost four years last week, the latest signal that the job market is steadily improving.

Weekly applications for unemployment benefits dropped 13,000 to a seasonally adjusted 348,000, the Labor Department said Thursday. It was the fourth drop in five weeks and the fewest number of claims since March 2008 — six months before Lehman Brothers collapsed and only a few months into the Great Recession.



Please tell me you don't actually believe this shit?


Please tell me why you dont.

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RE: US unemployment applications drop to a 4-year low - 2/16/2012 11:19:21 PM   
SternSkipper


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quote:


Please tell me you don't actually believe this shit?


Please tell me why you dont.


And please ping me if he comes up with a convincing response.


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RE: US unemployment applications drop to a 4-year low - 2/17/2012 3:55:24 AM   
slvemike4u


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quote:

ORIGINAL: subrob1967


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

I'm sure one of the usual suspects will be along in a few minutes to make a sows ear out of this silk purse.


Bill, you're about the only progressive on here worthy of any respect... That being said, can you honestly say you believe the numbers coming out of the White House?

This administration is diddling with the numbers in so many ways, it's astounding... Yet, guys like Owner & Mikey are eating this shit up, and begging for more.

Please do not refer to me as "Mikey"....Mikey is a little child who likes "Life" cereal,I am neither a little child nor do I like "Life" cereal.
Thank you,in advance,for this common courtesy.
Knowing just what sort of gentleman you are this should wrap that up

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RE: US unemployment applications drop to a 4-year low - 2/17/2012 6:18:06 PM   
LookieNoNookie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl


quote:

ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie


quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

Gobama!!


http://news.yahoo.com/us-unemployment-applications-drop-4-low-133936693.html


The number of people seeking unemployment benefits in the U.S. fell to the lowest point in almost four years last week, the latest signal that the job market is steadily improving.

Weekly applications for unemployment benefits dropped 13,000 to a seasonally adjusted 348,000, the Labor Department said Thursday. It was the fourth drop in five weeks and the fewest number of claims since March 2008 — six months before Lehman Brothers collapsed and only a few months into the Great Recession.



Please tell me you don't actually believe this shit?


Please tell me why you dont.


Because the numbers are rigged hon.

Look up "hedonics", then take a look at www.shadowstats.com (the feds actually use this site). There's a TON of good data there. And it's not some freak determined to make a point. His point is simply....factual stuff. I think you'll find it intriguing at least.

When Bush II was in power....he changed the definition of "manufacturing" to include hamburger flippers.

Guys that make hamburgers are now included in "manufacturing" data....right alongside of guys that make cars, refrigerators and backhoes.

Every President since Johnson has rejiggered the math....trust me....it ain't your Grampa's unemployment rate (really).

Look up shadowstats.com....dig through there (I know you're into detail...you'll find quite a bit in there...and...if that looks a little odd {knowing that it's not a federal govt. site}, keep digging).

The unemployment rate (when compared to 30 years ago let's say) is about 5 - 8 points off.

Nothing wrong with that really, so's the CPI (consumer price index)...it's just a number...but historically important.

Unemployment was 25% (I'm just making this up actually...but it's probably fairly close) in the 1930's...kinda sounds like what we've all read...right?

Except....it's not based on the same data that the numbers we read today are.

So now the question is (and remains) what is a number....what does it represent....has the basis changed?

And the answer is....yes.

< Message edited by LookieNoNookie -- 2/17/2012 6:27:40 PM >

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RE: US unemployment applications drop to a 4-year low - 2/17/2012 6:19:20 PM   
Owner59


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From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline 		The numbers are going in the right direction.

Nuff said.

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RE: US unemployment applications drop to a 4-year low - 2/17/2012 6:21:04 PM   
LookieNoNookie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SternSkipper

quote:


Please tell me you don't actually believe this shit?


Please tell me why you dont.


And please ping me if he comes up with a convincing response.



I don't need a convincing response....what you need is a set of data that gives you a true north heading.

What you need is....to believe in facts...and not the news...your govt. or....what someone told you. (Including me).

I don't have to tell you the truth...and I never would because mine may differ from yours (and you probably won't believe mine anyway...and it's really not all that important that you do)....but there's one thing that will never fail:

Facts.

< Message edited by LookieNoNookie -- 2/17/2012 6:41:02 PM >

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RE: US unemployment applications drop to a 4-year low - 2/17/2012 6:24:56 PM   
LookieNoNookie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

The numbers are going in the right direction.

Nuff said.


No argument....no matter what the basis is....it's getting better...that is indeed a fact.

Here's a really useful question though:

Is it getting better from a level of "oh fuck...this sucks, but I've seen worse...this'll be over soon" or....is getting better from a level of "they're lying their asses off, very little can be trusted and....how come everyone I know is hurting in some (financial) fashion....and has been since the early 90's....when....that ain't what I remember my parents saying when there were down and up times in the 70's? So....what's different?"

(That's a pretty damn good question to ask, I should think).

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RE: US unemployment applications drop to a 4-year low - 2/17/2012 6:37:29 PM   
Owner59


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From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline 		I`m counting my blessings,able to pay my mortgage and looking forward to when the recovery reaches small-town America.

That`s all I can say really.

_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

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Profile   Post #: 39
RE: US unemployment applications drop to a 4-year low - 2/17/2012 6:38:56 PM   
LookieNoNookie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

I`m counting my blessings,able to pay my mortgage and looking forward to when the recovery reaches small-town America.

That`s all I can say really.


Well said.

(in reply to Owner59)
Profile   Post #: 40
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