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RE: Hypocrisy or Obsession - 2/22/2012 5:34:11 AM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SternSkipper

Wish I knew where I said I gave a shit if you "got me".
Oh, wait I didn't, did I?


Of course you don't give a shit. You seem to prefer that we get along like peas in a pod, so long as you get to decide everything. Understand that I am not a sheep. I will not blindly follow after the shepherd. I will decide for myself what I believe, what I espouse, and what I claim. If that is in tune with your thoughts, I have no problem with it and will support you in those areas. I will also have no problem with putting my opinions and analyses in posts when they aren't in tune with yours (or anyone else's for that matter).

quote:


Ummmmm this thread is in fact being led topically by an author who's claim is of expertise as a hypocrite.
   However that doesn't excuse your poor interpretation of the whole hellraiser subtopic in this thread. Before you go caterwauling about who's more wrong than yourself as an inadequate defense, perhaps you should have read and comprhended the entire thread.
   Woulda helped. Frankly, there have been a number of times I have gone way off topic here and when I realize it, I apologize instead of indicting others.


So, a discussion of Hellraiser, then, pertains to hypocrisy...how?


(in reply to SternSkipper)
Profile   Post #: 81
RE: Hypocrisy or Obsession - 2/22/2012 4:26:24 PM   
BenevolentM


Posts: 3394
Joined: 11/15/2006
Status: offline 		My Ash Wednesday message to the people.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SternSkipper

quote:

In the absence of a moral theory that explains everything without contradiction, any attempt to be moral entails hypocrisy. In the absence of such a theory, the rejection of hypocrisy with solidarity is to reject morality in its entirety.


The late great Philosopher Bill Janek had a saying about statements like this "Dude, get a grip. You're talking chickens and spaghetti at everybody"


See Post 43 http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=4038418 the first message of Lourdes. The Lord Our God does not serve a man, nor a few (that is an elite). He serves all in an albeit dominant and asexual fashion.

(in reply to SternSkipper)
Profile   Post #: 82
RE: Hypocrisy or Obsession - 2/22/2012 5:31:29 PM   
BenevolentM


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Joined: 11/15/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

So, a discussion of Hellraiser, then, pertains to hypocrisy...how?


Though SternSkipper may not be able to answer your question or is refusing to do so out of perhaps a dark sick and twisted delight, perhaps I can. It is likely that the Hellraiser films are a favorite of many here. If you go to its English Wikipedia web page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hellraiser_(franchise) the connection to the films in the broader context is immediately clear, but the question remains how could it relate to the matter discussed here? Many who indulge in this lifestyle do so because they have rejected social norms, hypocrisy in particular. Hypocrisy is evil, but to reject hypocrisy altogether is like killing the messenger in place of addressing the problem that the messenger laid before us.

Many here prefer to accept who they are, the dark and the light, so that they may make a better peace between the light and the dark.

Such a peace is necessary in this world, but not the world that is to come. What one must avoid is embracing this world too fully, that is to drink too deeply. If you knew how evil the world is, you would not embrace it, yet we cannot run from it entirely, not for reasons that are practical, but out of theoretical necessity.

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 83
RE: Hypocrisy or Obsession - 2/22/2012 9:09:36 PM   
BenevolentM


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SternSkipper

Yep a bunch of screamers inside a house that acts like a rubic's cube with sharp edges forced to riddle with a dude with a head fuill of pins at some point in each installment ... lemme know if there was an actual point.


quote:

ORIGINAL: SternSkipper

Oooh lookie ... make-believe equations cute ....
ie - Einstein
Not really many for a guy who stunned the world. You wanna get lucky with physics blather you're better off hitting up Michio Kaku for tips ... when he comes to Cambridge he hangs with my homie Jonathan, who says the guy scores "like a fisherman with dynamite".


What you wrote I feel could be exploited, perhaps unfairly. Consider the following thought experiment. On the desk of Dr. Michio Kaku is a Rubik's cube like box which is a family heirloom. The heirloom fascinated him as a child and was the reason why he became interested in physics much like how a compass inspired Albert Einstein. One day he manages to solve the riddle of the box and it opens. Dr. Michio Kaku meets Pinhead, but says in a vein attempt to exorcize the phantasm, "I'm a scientist! I stand for reason and rationality!" Pinhead replies, "Don't be a hypocrite. You want to know what is inside the box. You have wanted to know ever since you were young."

(in reply to SternSkipper)
Profile   Post #: 84
RE: Hypocrisy or Obsession - 2/23/2012 5:38:07 AM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BenevolentM
Though SternSkipper may not be able to answer your question or is refusing to do so out of perhaps a dark sick and twisted delight, perhaps I can. It is likely that the Hellraiser films are a favorite of many here. If you go to its English Wikipedia web page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hellraiser_(franchise) the connection to the films in the broader context is immediately clear, but the question remains how could it relate to the matter discussed here? Many who indulge in this lifestyle do so because they have rejected social norms, hypocrisy in particular. Hypocrisy is evil, but to reject hypocrisy altogether is like killing the messenger in place of addressing the problem that the messenger laid before us.


The Hellraiser franchise is, perhaps, my favorite horror franchise. Oddly enough, I had an odd sort of understanding with what Pinhead does. Pinhead is the alpha-Sadist. He enjoys putting people through all sorts of pain. It is that thin line between pain and pleasure that he works around, or at least used to work around.

http://www.pyramid-gallery.com/LamentConfig.html

quote:

"The boxes, known in some circles as LeMarchand Boxes, were each one of a kind
creations which were also puzzles, with the answer to one's ultimate hearts desire as
their solution." - excerpted from "Tucker's Encyclopedia of Mass Murderers" -


A very heavy S&M theme runs through out the movie. Interestingly enough, this franchise has always been a favorite, even before I started looking past vanilla.

(in reply to BenevolentM)
Profile   Post #: 85
RE: Hypocrisy or Obsession - 2/23/2012 11:44:14 AM   
BenevolentM


Posts: 3394
Joined: 11/15/2006
Status: offline 		Consider the objection advanced by SternSkipper

quote:

ORIGINAL: SternSkipper

Yep a bunch of screamers inside a house that acts like a rubic's cube with sharp edges forced to riddle with a dude with a head fuill of pins at some point in each installment ... lemme know if there was an actual point.


He was giving a plot summary. Plot summaries often cause a story to appear flat. Why because they are gross simplifications. SternSkipper has been critical in an interesting way. The way academics seem to see things. They try to be better than the rest of us and that is in some ways a good thing. Surely, if we hire a professional, it is our desire to find someone who understands the subject better than we do. I also think that it is like S&M in that the more deeply you go or get lost in it, your tastes can change.

If you dare make a reference to a popular film in an academic setting they will bite your head off for it. It is a faux pas. I know because I've encountered it. The only people such as Dr. Michio Kaku can get away with it. I suspect why academics are as liberal in their politics as they generally are is outgrowth of how ultraconservative the environment they inhabit is. This causes them to rebel. It is clear that the world plays sick sadomasochistic games with people. Under the rubric, know thy enemy; maybe an understanding of what sadomasochism is all about could be useful. Even if the motives of most are practical and has nothing to do with what they desire per se, some are surely motivated by sadomasochism. They love it.

In this light what SternSkipper is saying kind of makes some sense. If you want to be an academic, maybe you should walk and quack like one. If you don't play by the rules, people are either suspicious or jealous.

Why are people often not willing to play by the rules? I watched a program recently on the recent work being done in criminal psychology and psy-cop-athy. What I found striking is the willingness of those who have been diagnosed with the disorder to play by the rules which may seem ironic or initially absurd. I'm talking here about the logical rules, not the rules that make us human. They behave like intelligent machines, but not people. As odd as it may seem a lack of willingness to play by the rules, as in doing what is logical, is what makes us human.

The puzzle in my fictional story where Dr. Michio Kaku is an actor encounters a problem that cannot be solved by conventional means. He must engage his passions and his heart. He encounters a problem that cannot be solved by logic alone. The application of logic alone as applied to human behavior yields paradoxes that a logician might refer to as hypocrisy.

(in reply to SternSkipper)
Profile   Post #: 86
RE: Hypocrisy or Obsession - 2/23/2012 1:44:40 PM   
BenevolentM


Posts: 3394
Joined: 11/15/2006
Status: offline 		To see the documentary that I watched on psy-cop-athy go to http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/psychopath/. It will flush out some details that I elided; most notably, how the condition is not necessarily associated with criminality. Most with the condition are law abiding.

I would like to point out that law abiding is consistent with following the rules put forth by logic. It is logical to be law abiding when it does not serve your interest to be otherwise. It is often logical to be proper. People are often law abiding for reasons that are illogical, however. This fact is heavily leveraged by society. Because that is the way things are done! Because that is what is expected. Because it is the right thing to do and be. The law is a mixture of reason and ideas about what makes us human with a big helping of practical considerations and fashion.

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Profile   Post #: 87
RE: Hypocrisy or Obsession - 2/23/2012 1:49:33 PM   
BenevolentM


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Joined: 11/15/2006
Status: offline 		It should be apparent that parallels, as shocking as it may seem, between Star Trek and Hellraiser can be drawn which may help explain why Hellraiser is popular. In all seriousness, in a way you might be a Trekkie of sorts, to go boldly where no man or woman has gone before!

(in reply to BenevolentM)
Profile   Post #: 88
RE: Hypocrisy or Obsession - 2/23/2012 1:59:11 PM   
BenevolentM


Posts: 3394
Joined: 11/15/2006
Status: offline 		To engage in fantasy, play, or thought experiment is to engage in forms of hypocrisy. In fact, hypocrisy is central to what it is to be human. To have passions is to be human. To have wants, desires, and so on is to be human. So is hypocrisy evil? Hypocritically, we humans generally don't think so.

(in reply to BenevolentM)
Profile   Post #: 89
RE: Hypocrisy or Obsession - 2/23/2012 2:19:49 PM   
BenevolentM


Posts: 3394
Joined: 11/15/2006
Status: offline 		When you watch a horror film depicting unspeakable acts what would be the logical response? The logical response is monkey see, monkey do. Yet, predominantly this is not what happens. People do not go forth to do unspeakable things generally speaking upon viewing a horror film depicting unspeakable acts. Logically speaking, this is nuts because it makes no sense. You would think it was the other way around, logically speaking.

Ok be skeptical, tell me what a learning machine would do? Show a learning machine a horror film depicting unspeakable acts, what do you expect would happen? The learning machine would carry out unspeakable acts. When the learning machine gets arrested it is puzzled, What exactly did I get wrong? Now the learning machine starts telling the prison officials exactly what the officials want to hear. Most people have inhibitions against this going both ways. Most people won't tell the prison officials exactly what the officials want to hear even though it is the rational thing to do because they are human.

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Profile   Post #: 90
RE: Hypocrisy or Obsession - 2/23/2012 2:40:11 PM   
BenevolentM


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Joined: 11/15/2006
Status: offline 		If you actually took what academic models say seriously, you would think psy-cop-athy is the Great Attainment, a model for the sort of people we should be. I feel this is an argument for religion because it is religion, not science, that has succeeded in possessing a reasonably accurate model for what it is to be human.

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Profile   Post #: 91
RE: Hypocrisy or Obsession - 2/23/2012 2:46:11 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		Philosophers (a great deal of them not at all concerned with religion) thru the ages would be a little pissed off at that notion.

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


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Profile   Post #: 92
RE: Hypocrisy or Obsession - 2/23/2012 4:42:47 PM   
BenevolentM


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Joined: 11/15/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Philosophers (a great deal of them not at all concerned with religion) thru the ages would be a little pissed off at that notion.


Philosophers piss each other off all the time. Focusing on a speciality helps a lot. So instead of wasting their time pissing on each other most everyone is usually off working in their cell refining what humanity knows on a topic and publishing papers. The hope is that one day humanity will have something that will permit us to be magnanimous towards each other, that is not at each other's throats all the time.

It can be difficult to be a philosopher under watchful eyes. This also takes place in the secular world of academia. Say for example, I was a physicist. What do physicists know about philosophy or religion? In general physicists run from these topics as if these topics were the plague. Writing about such things could result in a loss of esteem among one's colleagues. Are you a physicist or a philosopher? where or is an exclusive-or. Dr. Michio Kaku, for example, is a maverick who is permitted to indulge. They allow him to be eccentric. It is good for business. He is selling science.

You might find it difficult to get published, but it does help to say that you are someone who has paid their dues, has a PhD and are actively employed at an accredited institution that watches over you. In some regards nothing has changed. Revolutionary ideas and heresy are often found in bed with each other.

It is heresy not to be in possession of the truth. This is an inherently conservative principle that is also adhered to by academia. There is a silver lining, a caveat. If you are indeed in possession of the truth; it isn't heresy. I think this is what everyone including the Church has since discovered.

Just as Christ taught us, our friends can be our enemies and our enemies our friends. What do I base this on? Judas betrayed Christ. He was a friend. Roman was an enemy that became a friend. What do I think Christ taught us? He taught us not to be simpletons. Perhaps one day mnottertail and I may become best of friends. Who knows what possibilities are out there in the multiverse.

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 93
RE: Hypocrisy or Obsession - 2/23/2012 4:51:37 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		They dont run from them, they know the answers, it cannot be.

If it could be, we can't exploit god so insofar as we are concerned so the old geezer is the equivalent to not existing.



_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


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Profile   Post #: 94
RE: Hypocrisy or Obsession - 2/23/2012 7:15:14 PM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BenevolentM
Who knows what possibilities are out there in the multiverse.[/size]



yeh he is pretty binary.

I love it when people see themselves as part of a mathematical formula

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

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Profile   Post #: 95
RE: Hypocrisy or Obsession - 2/23/2012 11:36:32 PM   
SternSkipper


Posts: 7546
Joined: 3/7/2004
Status: offline 		You know what? This whole thing below has literally nothing to do with a thing I am either thinking or saying.
   Since we don't really have a whole fuckload in common (thread-wise) at this point, I'm going to politely excuse myself. I've just taken on a much bigger than planned role in a political campaign and getting someone to invest a lot of time debating me really isn't fair,cause I'm gonna be falling off the face of the earth a lot.
  But good luck with your thread it's sure shaping up to be a doozey.

quote:

He was giving a plot summary. Plot summaries often cause a story to appear flat. Why because they are gross simplifications. SternSkipper has been critical in an interesting way. The way academics seem to see things. They try to be better than the rest of us and that is in some ways a good thing. Surely, if we hire a professional, it is our desire to find someone who understands the subject better than we do. I also think that it is like S&M in that the more deeply you go or get lost in it, your tastes can change.

If you dare make a reference to a popular film in an academic setting they will bite your head off for it. It is a faux pas. I know because I've encountered it. The only people such as Dr. Michio Kaku can get away with it. I suspect why academics are as liberal in their politics as they generally are is outgrowth of how ultraconservative the environment they inhabit is. This causes them to rebel. It is clear that the world plays sick sadomasochistic games with people. Under the rubric, know thy enemy; maybe an understanding of what sadomasochism is all about could be useful. Even if the motives of most are practical and has nothing to do with what they desire per se, some are surely motivated by sadomasochism. They love it.

In this light what SternSkipper is saying kind of makes some sense. If you want to be an academic, maybe you should walk and quack like one. If you don't play by the rules, people are either suspicious or jealous.

Why are people often not willing to play by the rules? I watched a program recently on the recent work being done in criminal psychology and psy-cop-athy. What I found striking is the willingness of those who have been diagnosed with the disorder to play by the rules which may seem ironic or initially absurd. I'm talking here about the logical rules, not the rules that make us human. They behave like intelligent machines, but not people. As odd as it may seem a lack of willingness to play by the rules, as in doing what is logical, is what makes us human.

The puzzle in my fictional story where Dr. Michio Kaku is an actor encounters a problem that cannot be solved by conventional means. He must engage his passions and his heart. He encounters a problem that cannot be solved by logic alone. The application of logic alone as applied to human behavior yields paradoxes that a logician might refer to as hypocrisy.


_____________________________

Looking forward to The Dead Singing The National Anthem At The World Series.




Tinfoilers Swallow


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Profile   Post #: 96
RE: Hypocrisy or Obsession - 2/23/2012 11:46:02 PM   
SternSkipper


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Joined: 3/7/2004
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quote:



What you wrote I feel could be exploited, perhaps unfairly. Consider the following thought experiment. On the desk of Dr. Michio Kaku is a Rubik's cube like box which is a family heirloom.


Really? That's swell,. he didn't bring it to Sonsie the few times I encountered the guy.... nor did he mention it. But if you say so, wow, that's awesome. To tell ya the truth, I think if you brought one you might get asked to go. Year before last Ron Wood was told to put his paddleball toy away of leave by a bartender there.
    We talked about the Grateful Dead and shows of theirs mostly because he got into them after they were gone, and I saw them... well a lot.



_____________________________

Looking forward to The Dead Singing The National Anthem At The World Series.




Tinfoilers Swallow


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Profile   Post #: 97
RE: Hypocrisy or Obsession - 2/23/2012 11:48:55 PM   
SternSkipper


Posts: 7546
Joined: 3/7/2004
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quote:

They dont run from them, they know the answers, it cannot be.

If it could be, we can't exploit god so insofar as we are concerned so the old geezer is the equivalent to not existing.



It's hard to believe Ron, that for all your incisive quips... that your true love is raising Pigmy Ponies.



_____________________________

Looking forward to The Dead Singing The National Anthem At The World Series.




Tinfoilers Swallow


(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 98
RE: Hypocrisy or Obsession - 2/23/2012 11:57:36 PM   
SternSkipper


Posts: 7546
Joined: 3/7/2004
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quote:

Of course you don't give a shit. You seem to prefer that we get along like peas in a pod, so long as you get to decide everything. Understand that I am not a sheep. I will not blindly follow after the shepherd.


Here's what I seem to prefer, since this is round 4 or 5 and your lightbulb still won't go off. This thread may have been created for a lot of things in the mind of the author. What I am reasonably certain is that it WASN'T created for the purpose of you following a female around from another thread cause you weren't satisfied the argument was over. Either you realized that, and are backtracking so you look like the victim, or you still don't get it, yet you've stopped. Either way I am happy.

quote:


So, a discussion of Hellraiser, then, pertains to hypocrisy...how?


Is it like hard for you to get that this thread is kind of an evolving thing ?



_____________________________

Looking forward to The Dead Singing The National Anthem At The World Series.




Tinfoilers Swallow


(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 99
RE: Hypocrisy or Obsession - 2/24/2012 1:50:09 AM   
BenevolentM


Posts: 3394
Joined: 11/15/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SternSkipper

Really? That's swell,. he didn't bring it to Sonsie the few times I encountered the guy.


Trying to make my mouth water? Anyway good luck on the campaign trail. Tell Michio Kaku the next time you see him that I said hi.

(in reply to SternSkipper)
Profile   Post #: 100
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