Are we a secular Nation...or not.

Collarspace Discussion Forums

Home Login Search

Are we a secular Nation...or not.

View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest

All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion >> Are we a secular Nation...or not.

Page: [1] 2 next > >>

Login

Message

<< Older Topic Newer Topic >>

Are we a secular Nation...or not. - 2/19/2012 7:38:58 AM

slvemike4u

Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline

Rick Santurom's rise in the Republican nomination process is,for me troubling,seeing how his campaign is based in large part on his adherence to his own stated religious views.
So are we to be a Nation with a secular government are or we heading towards government by a near theocratic President?

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4

Post #: 1

RE: Are we a secular Nation...or not. - 2/19/2012 7:54:31 AM

kdsub

Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline

Mike I think ones religion has always been a factor in Presidential elections. It is nothing new....remember Kennedy and how big it was for the first Catholic in office...and people were asking if the Pope would have a say in American policy?

Religion is just a continuing political ploy...one of many reasons to vote for or against a candidate.

Yes a religion may give an indication on how a person will filter world events and there is nothing wrong with knowing that. Say the person was an out and out atheist...would that not just be another factor in voting for or against. It is still the person and what they say and do...not the religion or lack of it that should and will make the difference.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 2/19/2012 7:55:41 AM >

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to slvemike4u)

Post #: 2

RE: Are we a secular Nation...or not. - 2/19/2012 7:55:25 AM

SoftBonds

Posts: 862
Joined: 2/10/2012
Status: offline

The answer you get to this question depends on who you ask.
In general, if you ask this question in the NorthEast or West, you will get a yes, if you ask this question in the South or non-city MidWest, you will get a lecture on how the founding fathers were all Christians and while they wanted freedom to choose any type of Christianity, that didn't mean anyone in the US could be a Muslim or Athiest...
Then they will try to claim Thomas Jefferson wasn't a founding father if you point out his beliefs...

(in reply to slvemike4u)

Post #: 3

RE: Are we a secular Nation...or not. - 2/19/2012 8:02:53 AM

slvemike4u

Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Mike I think ones religion has always been a factor in Presidential elections. It is nothing new....remember Kennedy and how big it was for the first Catholic in office...and people were asking if the Pope would have a say in American policy?

Religion is just a continuing political ploy...one of many reasons to vote for or against a candidate.

Yes a religion may give an indication on how a person will filter world events and there is nothing wrong with knowing that. Say the person was an out and out atheist...would that not just be another factor in voting for or against. It is still the person and what they say and do...not the religion or lack of it that should and will make the difference.

Butch

Kennedy went out of his way to declare he was not running as the candidate to be a Catholic President...as a matter of fact Kennedy's big test was to convince the voters not to hold his Catholicism against him.
Santurom ,is in fact,running as the Catholic candidate and putting forth his theological beliefs front and center.
If that doesn't scare you Butch than you are seeing things different than me

Cause the way I view Santurom's candidacy I am scared ,and scared shitless

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4

(in reply to kdsub)

Post #: 4

RE: Are we a secular Nation...or not. - 2/19/2012 8:11:11 AM

kdsub

Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline

lol...Oh he scares me alright...but not because of his religion...but because of his stated stands on issues. I see nothing wrong with saying” I am a Catholic...or Mormon“…or any other religion.

Part of the political process is getting to know a candidate… his views both personal and professional and his religion is important to him and many others. It still comes down to his policy…what it will be and does it match the majority thinking.

Otherwise if the majority thinks his religious affiliation is important then so be it… it is the will of the majority…He will still have to work within the frame work of the Constitution.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to slvemike4u)

Post #: 5

RE: Are we a secular Nation...or not. - 2/19/2012 8:18:22 AM

slvemike4u

Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline

The Constitution is indeed our best defense against a wack job gaining the Oval Office...but tell me how well did it protect us against the Bush(the lesser) agenda ?

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4

(in reply to kdsub)

Post #: 6

RE: Are we a secular Nation...or not. - 2/19/2012 8:22:47 AM

slvemike4u

Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline

Rick Santurom on contraception's " Contraception's are not okay"
Santuroms money man on the same subject .." Contraceptives ,my gosh it's so inexpensive...back in my day the gals put it between their knees and it wasn't that costly"....(paraphrased a bit,sorry)

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4

(in reply to slvemike4u)

Post #: 7

RE: Are we a secular Nation...or not. - 2/19/2012 8:35:54 AM

DarkSteven

Posts: 28072
Joined: 5/2/2008
Status: offline

We live in odd times.

Obama is kind of a blend in many ways, in a country that values simplicity. His religion is technically Christian, but with rumors that he is a closet Muslim or an atheist. Nothing surprising - he also is rumored to be born outside the US, not a citizen, etc. His religion is just as whispered against as the rest of him. I suspect that him being a Christian but not a strong one sits just fine with his target constituency.

While I'm not an expert on Christianity, my understanding is that many Protestants feel that Catholicism is not "real" Christianity. Odd that half the GOP field identifies as Catholic (I'm not sure WHAT Paul's religious affiliation is), and a quarter as Mormon.

Santorum is trying to represent himself as a good Christian, and Obama as a closet godless Communist who portrays himself as a Christian. Santorum needs every vote he can get and is trying to pander to the Christian wing of the GOP. Note that if he does become thew GOP candidate, he's going to have to mute his stands in the general.

_____________________________

"You women....

The small-breasted ones want larger breasts. The large-breasted ones want smaller ones. The straight-haired ones curl their hair, and the curly-haired ones straighten theirs...

Quit fretting. We men love you."

(in reply to slvemike4u)

Post #: 8

RE: Are we a secular Nation...or not. - 2/19/2012 8:39:10 AM

Laymedown60

Posts: 41
Joined: 9/6/2009
Status: offline

sorry my puppet

(in reply to slvemike4u)

Post #: 9

RE: Are we a secular Nation...or not. - 2/19/2012 8:40:13 AM

kdsub

Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline

62,000,000 plus Americans did not think Bush was a wack job...although I personally think he was...lol. And the Constitution worked just fine...as always. Despite what we would want...the Constitution is still filtered through the mores of the appointed judges that reflect the thinking of the times. And... this thinking determines how the purposely vague Constitution is interpreted.

So bottom line with a few obvious exceptions the Constitution still reflects majority thinking and always will even if an atheist is in office...or a person of religion.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to slvemike4u)

Post #: 10

RE: Are we a secular Nation...or not. - 2/19/2012 8:42:41 AM

slvemike4u

Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

We live in odd times.

Obama is kind of a blend in many ways, in a country that values simplicity. His religion is technically Christian, but with rumors that he is a closet Muslim or an atheist. Nothing surprising - he also is rumored to be born outside the US, not a citizen, etc. His religion is just as whispered against as the rest of him. I suspect that him being a Christian but not a strong one sits just fine with his target constituency.

While I'm not an expert on Christianity, my understanding is that many Protestants feel that Catholicism is not "real" Christianity. Odd that half the GOP field identifies as Catholic (I'm not sure WHAT Paul's religious affiliation is), and a quarter as Mormon.

Santorum is trying to represent himself as a good Christian, and Obama as a closet godless Communist who portrays himself as a Christian. Santorum needs every vote he can get and is trying to pander to the Christian wing of the GOP. Note that if he does become thew GOP candidate, he's going to have to mute his stands in the general.

Won't that be impossible DS, the muting I mean ?
How does he do that with all the sound bites out there.
While I say I am scared,the truth is nominating Santurom could be,for the Republican Party,a form of institutional suicide.
But in part,that is the fear,I actually believe a two party system needs....two parties .

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4

(in reply to DarkSteven)

Post #: 11

RE: Are we a secular Nation...or not. - 2/19/2012 8:47:37 AM

SoftBonds

Posts: 862
Joined: 2/10/2012
Status: offline

Don't worry too much about the Republicans being represented in our two party system. Right now we have a moderate Republican as President. This is the guy who proposed a health care system based on Romney's implementation of Nixon's plan...
This is also the guy who has backed the banks instead of the taxpayers, who has bent over backwards "compromising," with the Republicans even when his theoretical party held both houses of congress, and who continues to Kowtow to the Republicans.
We haven't had a Democrat in the Oval office since Carter...

(in reply to slvemike4u)

Post #: 12

RE: Are we a secular Nation...or not. - 2/19/2012 8:57:02 AM

xssve

Posts: 3589
Joined: 10/10/2009
Status: offline

The constitution would form a very large obstacle to theocratic rule - if a duly elected political junta were to dissolve the constitution, their legal authority to rule would be dissolved along with it, as it also forms the basis of any political legitimacy at all.

_____________________________

Walking nightmare...

(in reply to SoftBonds)

Post #: 13

RE: Are we a secular Nation...or not. - 2/19/2012 9:11:13 AM

SoftBonds

Posts: 862
Joined: 2/10/2012
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: xssve

The constitution would form a very large obstacle to theocratic rule - if a duly elected political junta were to dissolve the constitution, their legal authority to rule would be dissolved along with it, as it also forms the basis of any political legitimacy at all.

So if you can vote for whoever you want for president, however the state's representatives to the electoral college must be properly vetted by the church, the Constitution would protect us?
Remind me, is it the voters or the Electoral College who select the president?
In other news, Obama agrees with Bush that the president/executive branch should have the right to indefinitely detain anyone on the basis of someone calling them a terrorist. Of course using that power on Senators/Representatives who dispute the divine wisdom of the President would never happen...
There is a great book out there called "It can't happen here," written in the 1930's I think, read it and worry...

(in reply to xssve)

Post #: 14

RE: Are we a secular Nation...or not. - 2/19/2012 9:14:47 AM

TheHeretic

Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u
Cause the way I view Santurom's candidacy I am scared ,and scared shitless

And are you proud and happy to be participating in the transition from "hope and change," to "fear and loathing," as a campaign theme, Mike?

Would you like a nice litmus test to be required on what a candidate's religious beliefs can, and cannot be?

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

(in reply to slvemike4u)

Post #: 15

RE: Are we a secular Nation...or not. - 2/19/2012 9:32:32 AM

xssve

Posts: 3589
Joined: 10/10/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SoftBonds

quote:

ORIGINAL: xssve

The constitution would form a very large obstacle to theocratic rule - if a duly elected political junta were to dissolve the constitution, their legal authority to rule would be dissolved along with it, as it also forms the basis of any political legitimacy at all.

So if you can vote for whoever you want for president, however the state's representatives to the electoral college must be properly vetted by the church, the Constitution would protect us?
Remind me, is it the voters or the Electoral College who select the president?
In other news, Obama agrees with Bush that the president/executive branch should have the right to indefinitely detain anyone on the basis of someone calling them a terrorist. Of course using that power on Senators/Representatives who dispute the divine wisdom of the President would never happen...
There is a great book out there called "It can't happen here," written in the 1930's I think, read it and worry...

Didn't say it couldn't happen, and I think the general consensus outside the beltway on both sides is that the PATRIOT act is anything but patriotic.

It's why SCOTUS appointments have been such a bone of contention, since it's SCOTUS who largely gets to define what the constitution means and what it doesn't.

There is nothing in the constitution that would support a theocratic form of government - I'm interested in this electoral college vetting by the church you mention, that's another way to back door the electorate for sure.

_____________________________

Walking nightmare...

(in reply to SoftBonds)

Post #: 16

RE: Are we a secular Nation...or not. - 2/19/2012 9:33:03 AM

slvemike4u

Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline

No Rich,no litmus test on what a candidate believes as it relates to faith....but yeah a litmus test as it relates to their willingness to impose their faith on the rest of us.
Or are you suggesting you are okay with having a President's faith imposed on the nation from the Oval office.
A President who sides with Catholic bishops who are paying more attention to a hub bub about contraception than they did with priests molesting little boys?

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 17

RE: Are we a secular Nation...or not. - 2/19/2012 9:33:08 AM

Kirata

Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Would you like a nice litmus test to be required on what a candidate's religious beliefs can, and cannot be?

I don't think anybody has a problem with Santorum's private religious beliefs. The problem is his political philosophy, namely, that the Bible should be the "litmus test" (to borrow your phrase) for secular law. That's a big no-thank-you.

K.

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 18

RE: Are we a secular Nation...or not. - 2/19/2012 9:36:52 AM

SoftBonds

Posts: 862
Joined: 2/10/2012
Status: offline

Oh, just re-read my writing and wanted to clarify that the idea of a church vetting the electoral college members was a hypothetical idea, not something currently in practice. However you can see how something like that could easily derail the constitution's intent while remaining inside it's written form.

(in reply to Kirata)

Post #: 19

RE: Are we a secular Nation...or not. - 2/19/2012 9:38:21 AM

TheHeretic

Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline

I think it's pretty well covered by the First Amendment, guys.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

(in reply to Kirata)

Post #: 20

Page: [1] 2 next > >>

All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion >> Are we a secular Nation...or not.

Page: [1] 2 next > >>

Jump to:

New Messages	No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages	Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages	Locked w/o New Messages

Post New Thread

Reply to Message

Post New Poll

Submit Vote

Delete My Own Post

Delete My Own Thread

Rate Posts

Collarchat.com © 2025

Terms of Service

0.094