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RE: Looking for someone with 'ancient' (?) scholarly kn... - 2/20/2012 8:27:59 PM   
SternSkipper


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quote:


If nothing else, it's at least a fertile area for speculation. We have yet to explain a great deal about our past, and seemingly inexplicable artifacts abound.

K.


I've heard a couple of references lately to the notion that The Great Flood (which has more or less been proven to have happened, right?), wiped all of the developed civilization out and mankind started over. Only they've added the question "Did we lose a lot more than we realize based on what we have to go on?" ... Is that what you're talking about?
   I have to admit, I sort of find that plausible.



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(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Looking for someone with 'ancient' (?) scholarly kn... - 2/20/2012 8:39:32 PM   
Anaxagoras


Posts: 3086
Joined: 5/9/2009
From: Eire
Status: offline 		I also think the idea of some sort of Atlantean civilisation implausible but a very interesting one nonetheless. Some ancient myths refer to a Golden Age of learning that seemed to precede the related civilisations. It’s a stretch but perhaps the notions of a Golden Age emerged with the early sites that in a sense represent proto-civilisations, e.g. Catal Hayuk in Turkey, a very big Neolithic settlement that developed around 8,000 BC. Civilisation only began to emerge around 3,500 BC in Sumeria. Interestingly Catal Hayuk appears to have had no defensive structures in its early phase (at least according to the dodgy book I read on it) which was unusual. It suggests it was a more peaceful era, at least in that region.

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(in reply to Kirata)
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RE: Looking for someone with 'ancient' (?) scholarly kn... - 2/20/2012 10:29:46 PM   
Demspotis


Posts: 61
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline 		On "omissions" from what Christians call the Old Testament, & Jews call "the Bible" or "the Tanach":

There's a standard group of texts that is included in the Bibles used by most Jews today (and for many centuries), and shared by most Protestant Christians. In ancient times, there were many more sacred texts to be found among Jewish people, but at some point, the canon we know was accepted by the authorities of that time, and other texts deemed either bogus or simply less authoritative or sanctified. Some of these texts were accepted by various of the Catholic & Orthodox (ie, pre-Protestant) churches. These various texts are categorized as "apocrypha", "deuterocanonical" and "pseudepigrapha", so those who are interested can easily search for those as keywords.

There were also texts from non-mainstream sects, such as some of the Dead Sea Scrolls; and the many Gnostic scriptures (Gnostics & their scriptures came in Jewish & "pagan" varieties, & Christian, too, once they showed up).

Many of these types of texts can be found (in translation), in the following books:

The Apocryphal/Deuterocanonical Books: The New Revised Standard Version; published by World Bible Publishers

The Lost Books of the Bible and The Forgotten Books of Eden; published by World Bible Publishers

The Dead Sea Scrolls in English, by G. Vermes; published by Penguin Books

The Other Bible, edited by Willis Barnstone; published by Harper San Francisco

The Gnostic Scriptures, edited by Bentley Layton; published by Doubleday

Also interesting is that several sections of the Torah/Pentateuch seem to explicitly identify themselves as extracts from earlier texts.

(in reply to xssve)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Looking for someone with 'ancient' (?) scholarly kn... - 2/21/2012 12:40:21 AM   
MrBukani


Posts: 1920
Joined: 4/18/2010
Status: offline 		You can also consider a different approach to explain what is plausible.
Our planet will die one day, if the human race wants to live on they have to leave.
Any intelligent being will realize that.
So we will be searching for a simular planet to colonize.
What if that planet is already inhabited by primal homonids who will develop to more intelligent people.
Is it ethical to speed up evolution?
Do we have the right to colonize their planet?
Should we find a planet less evolved and let them progress as nature sees fit?
Should we guard them?
So considering this might be very credible for our future, it would be credible for our past.
Maybe that's why they wiped out most evidence of their being here.
Maybe their genestock was degenerating and they needed a homestead to refresh their genebanks.
Maybe that's why it's only left in folktales through time.
We know now that our colonisation of Africa, South America etc. was morally wrong in many aspects.
Then again if the evolution is real slow the intelligent species might not have enough time to escape their own planet.
What is plausible?
Where do WE draw the line in helping or speeding up evolution?
Sort of like the cloning questions, we have now.
About racism is another question.
Jews consider themselves the chosen people wich can lead to two answers.
Chosen to believe in one God and spread their faith.
Chosen in the likes of superior.
It's hard to keep up superiority by race simply look at sports.
Look at the mind and all races have equal oppertunity to evolve intelligence to immense proportions.

(in reply to Demspotis)
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RE: Looking for someone with 'ancient' (?) scholarly kn... - 2/21/2012 6:19:56 AM   
DomKen


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Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


Granting that this fellow sounds like he's been hit with some stuff that's gotten him a bit unhinged, there is at least some interesting background to it.

Anatomically modern humans have been around for hundreds of thousands of years, and not just anatomically modern but with evidence of a capability for symbolic art as well. Yet there is no sign of anything resembling civilization as we know it until some mere thousands of years ago. Moreover, many ancient civilizations have legends telling of how their knowledge and technology was given to them by beings who appeared from the sky or the sea.

Believing that legends might be factual is not the exclusive province of kooks, viz.: Troy. The extraterrestrial hypothesis is a bit strained, of course. But it's not impossible that some as yet unknown civilization may once have existed on the Earth, suffered a catastrophe (of which there are also many legends) that wiped out and inundated all trace of it, and that these legendary beings credited with bringing civilization to our ancestors were its survivors.

If nothing else, it's at least a fertile area for speculation. We have yet to explain a great deal about our past, and seemingly inexplicable artifacts abound.

K.

Ok. Let's examine this nonsense in detail.

The oldest truly modern human remains are 160k years old. The genetic evidence suggests the species is somwhere between 300k and 200k years old. So you got that right.

Prior to the end of the Ice age 12k years ago humans had settled most of the temperate parts of the globe but with much of the northern hemisphere covered in ice and relatively little land in the southern this actually didn't amount to much of the globe and with no long distance communication and little if any organized trade there was very little impetus to innovate

Civilization I presume to mean settled communities. That required the invention of agriculture which occured about 10k years ago. Before this point hunter gatherer cultures had to be nomadic with very low population densities and contained very few specialists beyond hunting, gathering and toolmaking. After the Agricultural Revolution higher population densities and more surplus food meant people could concentrate on doing things not directly related to surviving. Thus we see the beginnings of engineering and architecture as well as more sophisticated tools and the start of systematic overland trade.

As to an "advanced civilization" arising and then being wiped out with no evidence being left behind debunking that starts with plate tectonics. There simply is no formerly terrestrial plate that has been inundated or been subsumed any time in the last hundreds of millions of years. So that rules out any land mass large enough to support even an iron age culture prior to the AR. All other possibilities, the civilization built on the ice sheet or cleaned up every trace of their civilization when it ended, are nonsensical on their face and so I won't waste time debunking them.

Finally the folklore of advanced visitors teaching some group skills they didn't have. That certainly must have happened. The groups that developed agricultural must have taught their neighbors who taught their neighbors etc. Certainly people left their home cultures and traveled taking with them skills that must have seemed extraordinary to their new neighbors. Imagine the reaction of a stone age farming village to the man who can craft bronze tools. However that does not require the existence of Atlantis or any such.

As to inexplicable artifacts. I know of none. If you think there are some please present them. Don't be surprised when it turns out you have been misled by charlatans.

< Message edited by DomKen -- 2/21/2012 6:22:58 AM >

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Looking for someone with 'ancient' (?) scholarly kn... - 2/21/2012 6:21:18 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SternSkipper

quote:


If nothing else, it's at least a fertile area for speculation. We have yet to explain a great deal about our past, and seemingly inexplicable artifacts abound.

K.


I've heard a couple of references lately to the notion that The Great Flood (which has more or less been proven to have happened, right?), wiped all of the developed civilization out and mankind started over. Only they've added the question "Did we lose a lot more than we realize based on what we have to go on?" ... Is that what you're talking about?
   I have to admit, I sort of find that plausible.

No, there was never a flood that simultaneously wiped out the various developed civilizations. The geological and historic records are 100% clear on this.


< Message edited by DomKen -- 2/21/2012 6:23:20 AM >

(in reply to SternSkipper)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Looking for someone with 'ancient' (?) scholarly kn... - 2/21/2012 7:03:56 AM   
Aylee


Posts: 24103
Joined: 10/14/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


Granting that this fellow sounds like he's been hit with some stuff that's gotten him a bit unhinged, there is at least some interesting background to it.

Anatomically modern humans have been around for hundreds of thousands of years, and not just anatomically modern but with evidence of a capability for symbolic art as well. Yet there is no sign of anything resembling civilization as we know it until some mere thousands of years ago. Moreover, many ancient civilizations have legends telling of how their knowledge and technology was given to them by beings who appeared from the sky or the sea.

Believing that legends might be factual is not the exclusive province of kooks, viz.: Troy. The extraterrestrial hypothesis is a bit strained, of course. But it's not impossible that some as yet unknown civilization may once have existed on the Earth, suffered a catastrophe (of which there are also many legends) that wiped out and inundated all trace of it, and that these legendary beings credited with bringing civilization to our ancestors were its survivors.

If nothing else, it's at least a fertile area for speculation. We have yet to explain a great deal about our past, and seemingly inexplicable artifacts abound.

K.


Uplift! Uplift!

_____________________________

Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam

I don’t always wgah’nagl fhtagn. But when I do, I ph’nglui mglw’nafh R’lyeh.

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Looking for someone with 'ancient' (?) scholarly kn... - 2/21/2012 9:00:54 AM   
SoftBonds


Posts: 862
Joined: 2/10/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: SternSkipper

quote:


If nothing else, it's at least a fertile area for speculation. We have yet to explain a great deal about our past, and seemingly inexplicable artifacts abound.

K.


I've heard a couple of references lately to the notion that The Great Flood (which has more or less been proven to have happened, right?), wiped all of the developed civilization out and mankind started over. Only they've added the question "Did we lose a lot more than we realize based on what we have to go on?" ... Is that what you're talking about?
   I have to admit, I sort of find that plausible.

No, there was never a flood that simultaneously wiped out the various developed civilizations. The geological and historic records are 100% clear on this.


Well, there was most likely a flood of the Mesopotamian valley that wiped out several cities and led to both the biblical flood story and the flood story in Gilgamesh. I think it is reasonable to say that "Great Flood," happened. It just didn't affect Egypt, much less the Inca or China.
Or maybe it did affect Egypt, maybe it led to a group of rag-tag stragglers to eventually immigrate and become slaves, until Moses led them to freedom? I donno...

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Looking for someone with 'ancient' (?) scholarly kn... - 2/21/2012 9:07:02 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		hell, coulda been the mythology left over from the ice age, coulda been sorta a deal like the flooding in asia, since it would make sense that earlier populations congregated around water, and that was certainly enough to wipe out a great deal of populations.

Could be any reason.   

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(in reply to SoftBonds)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Looking for someone with 'ancient' (?) scholarly kn... - 2/21/2012 9:14:33 AM   
Hillwilliam


Posts: 19394
Joined: 8/27/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

No, there was never a flood that simultaneously wiped out the various developed civilizations. The geological and historic records are 100% clear on this.


There was this, however which could explain the 'flood myth' in so many oral histories.

http://salvoblue.homestead.com/noah.html

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Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Looking for someone with 'ancient' (?) scholarly kn... - 2/21/2012 9:20:20 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SoftBonds


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: SternSkipper

quote:


If nothing else, it's at least a fertile area for speculation. We have yet to explain a great deal about our past, and seemingly inexplicable artifacts abound.

K.


I've heard a couple of references lately to the notion that The Great Flood (which has more or less been proven to have happened, right?), wiped all of the developed civilization out and mankind started over. Only they've added the question "Did we lose a lot more than we realize based on what we have to go on?" ... Is that what you're talking about?
   I have to admit, I sort of find that plausible.

No, there was never a flood that simultaneously wiped out the various developed civilizations. The geological and historic records are 100% clear on this.


Well, there was most likely a flood of the Mesopotamian valley that wiped out several cities and led to both the biblical flood story and the flood story in Gilgamesh. I think it is reasonable to say that "Great Flood," happened. It just didn't affect Egypt, much less the Inca or China.
Or maybe it did affect Egypt, maybe it led to a group of rag-tag stragglers to eventually immigrate and become slaves, until Moses led them to freedom? I donno...

There were certainly floods of the flood plains of the Tigres/Euphrates as well as the other river civilizations. However that was the whole purpose of settling along those rivers. The rivers flooded each spring bringing new silt which was full of new nutrients. These ancient cultures had little if any idea about ertilizer and were dependent on the floods renewing their croplands.

I'm sure some particularly memorable flood in Mesopotamia is the basis of the Noachian flood myth but it was localized to the Tigres/Euphrates river valley.

(in reply to SoftBonds)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Looking for someone with 'ancient' (?) scholarly kn... - 2/21/2012 9:30:52 AM   
SoftBonds


Posts: 862
Joined: 2/10/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: SoftBonds


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: SternSkipper

quote:


If nothing else, it's at least a fertile area for speculation. We have yet to explain a great deal about our past, and seemingly inexplicable artifacts abound.

K.


I've heard a couple of references lately to the notion that The Great Flood (which has more or less been proven to have happened, right?), wiped all of the developed civilization out and mankind started over. Only they've added the question "Did we lose a lot more than we realize based on what we have to go on?" ... Is that what you're talking about?
   I have to admit, I sort of find that plausible.

No, there was never a flood that simultaneously wiped out the various developed civilizations. The geological and historic records are 100% clear on this.


Well, there was most likely a flood of the Mesopotamian valley that wiped out several cities and led to both the biblical flood story and the flood story in Gilgamesh. I think it is reasonable to say that "Great Flood," happened. It just didn't affect Egypt, much less the Inca or China.
Or maybe it did affect Egypt, maybe it led to a group of rag-tag stragglers to eventually immigrate and become slaves, until Moses led them to freedom? I donno...

There were certainly floods of the flood plains of the Tigres/Euphrates as well as the other river civilizations. However that was the whole purpose of settling along those rivers. The rivers flooded each spring bringing new silt which was full of new nutrients. These ancient cultures had little if any idea about ertilizer and were dependent on the floods renewing their croplands.

I'm sure some particularly memorable flood in Mesopotamia is the basis of the Noachian flood myth but it was localized to the Tigres/Euphrates river valley.

I think we just, in a very roundabout and complicated way, agreed with eachother...

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Looking for someone with 'ancient' (?) scholarly kn... - 2/21/2012 4:15:12 PM   
outhere69


Posts: 1302
Joined: 1/25/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SternSkipper
quote:

You ran outta weed again, eh? This time, don't use it all... brownies and MJ butter... bake for the guy...

Great Idea but what will I do with this quart can of "Doormat Ether" I was going to bring him?


BTW, Didja know that ether drinking gives a person flammable farts/belches? 'Twas the cause of a bunch of injuries back in the 1800's.

Re: flooding. A lot of locations have had floods, but not all of them at once.

< Message edited by outhere69 -- 2/21/2012 4:20:46 PM >

(in reply to SternSkipper)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Looking for someone with 'ancient' (?) scholarly kn... - 2/21/2012 9:16:21 PM   
SternSkipper


Posts: 7546
Joined: 3/7/2004
Status: offline
quote:

I also think the idea of some sort of Atlantean civilisation implausible but a very interesting one nonetheless.


I have always liked that legend myself ... Going back to my childhood... I think there was a big Irwin Allen adventure film or something when I was little.



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Looking forward to The Dead Singing The National Anthem At The World Series.




Tinfoilers Swallow


(in reply to Anaxagoras)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Looking for someone with 'ancient' (?) scholarly kn... - 2/21/2012 9:29:07 PM   
SternSkipper


Posts: 7546
Joined: 3/7/2004
Status: offline
quote:


BTW, Didja know that ether drinking gives a person flammable farts/belches? 'Twas the cause of a bunch of injuries back in the 1800's.

Re: flooding. A lot of locations have had floods, but not all of them at once.


Trust me, this hasn't changed any of my plans for the rest of the week. In a way, I'm glad my asking it gave Ken and his new understudy a chance to do the "church lady dance". I hate seeing him miss an opportunity like that.

promise me you won't start lighting your ass gas to get on youtube or something.



_____________________________

Looking forward to The Dead Singing The National Anthem At The World Series.




Tinfoilers Swallow


(in reply to outhere69)
Profile   Post #: 35
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