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RE: If the Kaffia fits ... - 2/20/2012 5:00:21 PM

DaddySatyr

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quote:

ORIGINAL: deathtothepixies

DS
surely the world is so interconnected now that none of the big players can just withdraw from the rest of the world without seriously damaging themselves aswell, it doesn't matter whether it's aid or arms or food, it just can't be done. A solution has to be found that helps everyone. I have no idea what that solution is but my perspective is that the US backing of Israel is generally regarded as not a good thing

As a reasonable person, I can agree that there is room for the argument that the US, backing Israel is not a good thing. That's a discussion we can have, at some point.

However, despite attempts to derail this thread, the question is quite simple: Should the US be subsidizing (for any reason other than maybe food and water) an organization that has just welcomed terrorists into it?

That's all. Should we be giving Hamas (what averages out to be) another $80,000,000 knowing that they are still staunchly dedicated to hostile action against Israel. In effect; should we subsidize terrorists?

Peace and comfort,

Michael

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RE: If the Kaffia fits ... - 2/20/2012 5:09:42 PM

deathtothepixies

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probably not but if there is going to be a fight it seems fair to give both sides a fighting chance.
That said, clearly it would be better if there was no fight in the first place. Does support from the US to Israel go 100% to food and water?

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RE: If the Kaffia fits ... - 2/20/2012 5:18:21 PM

SoftBonds

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quote:

ORIGINAL: deathtothepixies

probably not but if there is going to be a fight it seems fair to give both sides a fighting chance.
That said, clearly it would be better if there was no fight in the first place. Does support from the US to Israel go 100% to food and water?

Um, our military aid, in the form of military hardware, doesn't go to food and water, I don't think.
Not sure who Israel would trade bombs and missiles to for food and water anyway.

However, the fact remains that cutting foreign aid by 50% would cut the cost of foreign aid by 50%, which would be a good thing given our current deficits.

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RE: If the Kaffia fits ... - 2/20/2012 5:57:19 PM

Anaxagoras

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

quote:

ORIGINAL: SternSkipper
But whatever, you've either got your heart set of having a good old left/right debate, and I'm just not interested. I just didn't want the boots deep bullshit story that was being cooked up go unanswered.

You're right. Most lefties are pro-Israel. I think most people are; even if it's strictly by virtue of Israel not being a nation of terrorists.

Unfortunately the left has issues with Israel. Whether they are right or wrong, they are the most anti-Israeli. The left in the US is more moderate so it is probably less of a phenomenon there as far as I can see anyway but internationally it is different. Pilar Rahola, a well known socialist in the Spanish speaking world, wrote a thought provoking article on the issue, particularly in relation to Spain but which is representative of most of the West today. The prominent leftist thinker, Bernard Henri Levy, who really pushed Sarkozy to get involved in Libya, has also written quite a lot about what he considers to be the left's problematic attitude toward Israel as well.

< Message edited by Anaxagoras -- 2/20/2012 6:24:25 PM >

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RE: If the Kaffia fits ... - 2/20/2012 6:26:49 PM

SternSkipper

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quote:

Someone at State can wake the fuck up and suggest to the president that this should not be going on and the president can issue an EO. I am not suggesting that the president is to blame. I am saying that he can take the swiftest action because he's the one in the chair.

Yeah well, THEY ARE talking about it ... saw something today on one of the news channels. I also think they are concerned about any unilateral action being used as yet another distraction by a group in congress which repeatedly proves they view their majority more as a bully pulpit to influence a pre3sidential election than to use the inherent power to reach compromises in their constituents favor.
And frankly, I am sick of that too.
The other thing I am not sure of is does the State Dept. (I assume that's what you meant in saying "Someone at State" have that authority to completely override the legislature. Certainly the Secretary of State may suspend anything in a REAL emergency by order of the President. But I seriously doubt the Secretary has specific authority to stop congressional funding of anything.
And this is hardly something we don't have time to insist the legislature act.

quote:

I don't, for one minute, think that this was a conscious decision by any particular person. I think that it was a program that's been in place for over a year that needs to be re-examined in light of recent events.

I agree it needs to be re-examined. But it came from a bill and one or maybe several sponsors created the funding.
And I would love to do the research for ya, but I just started a new role in a political campaign today and it's gonna have me rather busy orchestrating infrastructure for a while to come.
If you start a petition or anything be sure to let me know via CM. I'd be happy to sign it.

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RE: If the Kaffia fits ... - 2/20/2012 6:31:31 PM

SternSkipper

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quote:

Unfortunately the left has issues with Israel.

No offense, but you have to mean "the left" outside the United States... Any real disfavor Israel experiences with Americans on BOTH sides of the aisle is a) marginal at best and b)WAY over exploited by the press... Particularly Fox News Corporation.

If you mean "the left" in general, I'd tend to agree with that. The American left is somewhat different than it is overseas.

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RE: If the Kaffia fits ... - 2/20/2012 9:31:34 PM

tweakabelle

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quote:

ORIGINAL: deathtothepixies

DS
surely the world is so interconnected now that none of the big players can just withdraw from the rest of the world without seriously damaging themselves aswell, it doesn't matter whether it's aid or arms or food, it just can't be done. A solution has to be found that helps everyone. I have no idea what that solution is but my perspective is that the US backing of Israel is generally regarded as not a good thing

Perceptive comment.

The unconditional support given to the Israelis is one of the major causes of the ongoing failure to resolve the conflict. The Israelis calculate that with ongoing guaranteed US protection, financial and military support, they can do whatever they please without having to face the consequences.

Thus the Israeli Govt can refuse to stop the provocative colonisation/'settlement' of the West Bank, even though the entire world (inc. the US Govt) condemns this policy as illegal and the direct cause of the failure of the 'peace process'. Instead of being forced to negotiate for peace, the Israeli Govt can and does choose to thumb its nose at the world by continuing to expand the illegal colonies. American tax $ and aid are, in effect, a reward for ongoing Israeli intransigence and belligerence. The Israeli know damn well that as long as the unconditional US guarnatee remains, they can continue stealing the West Bank and making the Two State solution impossible.

If the US were to give the Israeli Govt 6 months notice to start obeying international law or face the withdrawal of all US diplomatic economic and military assistance until such time as the Israeli Govt complies with international law, you can bet your life there would be a 'final-status' Two State solution and agreement virtually overnight.

So your observation is right on the money.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 2/20/2012 9:33:50 PM >

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RE: If the Kaffia fits ... - 2/20/2012 9:40:59 PM

SternSkipper

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HEY ... that cooking monk picture in your profile... is that a real rage against the machine cover?
If it is... When did they publish that?

Reason I'm asking is because about 10 years ago or more, I did a bogus album cover that stylistically is better than that but uncomfortably similar.

It was entitled "Phuk Dup and The Monks - We're On Fire".

I smell am intellectual property suit.

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RE: If the Kaffia fits ... - 2/20/2012 9:57:51 PM

TheHeretic

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DS, I don't have any faith left that this is all going to wrap up with a neat little negotiated settlement. Peace will follow victory, either because there is no such place as Israel anymore, or because nobody is prepared to fuck with the Israelis in any way, shape or form, ever again.

And yes, Sternskipper, that's the cover on the CD I picked up in '94.

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RE: If the Kaffia fits ... - 2/21/2012 1:48:00 AM

DaddySatyr

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

DS, I don't have any faith left that this is all going to wrap up with a neat little negotiated settlement. Peace will follow victory, either because there is no such place as Israel anymore, or because nobody is prepared to fuck with the Israelis in any way, shape or form, ever again.

And yes, Sternskipper, that's the cover on the CD I picked up in '94.

Trust me, I'm not crazy enough to think that we'll see peace in that area in my day. I just can't fathom our government giving money to an organization that just incorporated a terrorist organization. It just kills me.

I know that this statement is painting all Palestinians with a very similar brush but, it's almost an affront to any American that's died in any terrorist attack.

I don't think that choosing sides in that area is a good idea because it is so polarized but, I think reasonable people can agree that when you have an organization that is absolutely involved in terrorist activities (Hamas makes no bones about their actions; they just call it "resistance"), you don't hand them $20,000,000 per year for five years.

I catch a lot of hell from friends of mine who are Jewish because I suggest that the Palestinians are justified in their anger (not their actions) towards us, if you look at the last 70 years in that region. Essentially, they were living life, hanging out, worshipping Allah and here comes the Israeli Army, funded by America and they even had some Americans fighting with them (precious few, I'm sure but David Ben Gurion {I think that's the name} comes to mind). They were told to pack their shit and get out of their homes. Plain and simple.

I don't know if I would have backed that action back in '47 (of course, I don't know that I wouldn't have backed it, either) but, we did it and we should "stand by it".

I don't think there can be any argument (except from extremist Palestinians) that since 1947, the Palestinians have been more aggressive and have not been targetting military targets with collateral damage, being the result. They absolutely took the "terrorist path" when they decided that since they couldn't win a "war", they would just kill civillians in the hope that those civillians that weren't dead would no longer want to live there.

There's no doubt the whole region is a mess but if we're going to not be duplicitous, it seems like not subsidizing a terrorist organization is a good first step.

Peace and comfort,

Michael

< Message edited by DaddySatyr -- 2/21/2012 2:10:42 AM >

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RE: If the Kaffia fits ... - 2/21/2012 4:45:49 AM

deathtothepixies

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it is the cover of the first RATM album and it came out in 1992. Don't mess with the rage boys though or they will come round and shout ay you really loudly until you give up.
True story

quote:

ORIGINAL: SternSkipper

HEY ... that cooking monk picture in your profile... is that a real rage against the machine cover?
If it is... When did they publish that?

Reason I'm asking is because about 10 years ago or more, I did a bogus album cover that stylistically is better than that but uncomfortably similar.

It was entitled "Phuk Dup and The Monks - We're On Fire".

I smell am intellectual property suit.