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Romney gets chewed for trying fiscal sanity. - 2/22/2012 8:33:46 AM   
DarkSteven


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Romney states that spending cuts will slow economy, and disagree with republican dogma that spending cuts (except defense) solve everything. After much GOP screaming, Romney issues a "clarification" that defies explanation.

Look, I don't like big government. But government spending is a two-edged sword. On the one hand, since marginal spending is done by deficit spending, it increases the debt. Bad. But it also pumps out money into the economy short term. Good.

GOP orthodoxy is that tax cuts always trickle down and stimulate the economy, and that spending cuts result in extra energy in the economy. Weirdos.

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RE: Romney gets chewed for trying fiscal sanity. - 2/22/2012 8:44:29 AM   
SoftBonds


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I'm not a fan of big government either, but the US government is anemic. Take out Social Security, Medicare, and Unemployment Insurance, except the cost of administration. Then take out the Military, and you have a government that spends about a half-trillion dollars a year to ride herd on a 15 trillion dollar GDP nation. 3% is big government???
It's like folks got so used to the argument that when the facts on the ground changed they didn't notice, and just kept shouting the arguments.
Kinda like the idea that lowering tax rates increases tax revenue (the Laffer curve). Yeah, it made sense when Eisenhower was President and had a 94% tax rate, and Reagan managed to get it to work short term cause people realized their taxable revenue while the rates were low. Once that realization was over, tax collections fell again. Income taxes don't even pay for the military, much less the non-FICA government.
Which means we are borrowing money from China to pay a military that is supposed to contain China? What happens if they want to fight us and they stop buying our bonds? Do we just stop paying the troops?
20% of the GDP goes to the government, yes, but about half of that goes right back out in checks to Seniors, Unemployed, or health care for Seniors.
20% of the GDP goes to the Financial sector (the TBTF banks).
12% goes to health care.
That leaves 48% for non-health care workers. The folks who produce the goods and services we actually spend money on. And people wonder why wages have stagnated. Wall Street taxes are through the roof. And if you don't think half the cost of health care is wall street taxes, compare the books for Medicare (2% administrative costs) and Aetna (20% administrative costs/profit margin). Then look at the percentage of hospital costs related to billing instead of medical care...
(clarification Wall Street Taxes=tax like effects created by wall street vice the government, e.g. TBTF banks siphoning money out of our economy. I'm not talking about the tax rate on Wall Street firms/individuals, which is lower than the tax rate I pay).

< Message edited by SoftBonds -- 2/22/2012 8:46:47 AM >

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RE: Romney gets chewed for trying fiscal sanity. - 2/22/2012 1:12:34 PM   
Fellow


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More than 50% Americans make their income off the government [ http://www.themindoftefft.com/blog/2011/03/10/its-official-most-americans-make-their-living-off-the-government/ ]. Reduction in the government should coincide with measures that provide source of income for people affected. Otherwise, the increase in poverty will inevitably lead to public unrest and destruction. I would ask people how they solve this problem? I am afraid only Ron Paul has a straight answer.

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RE: Romney gets chewed for trying fiscal sanity. - 2/22/2012 1:31:25 PM   
Lucylastic


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completely off topic, but I read the title as "romney gets chewed trying to fist sanity"......
He has more of a grasp on sanity than frothy mix..but truly... i snorted

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RE: Romney gets chewed for trying fiscal sanity. - 2/22/2012 1:38:18 PM   
SoftBonds


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

completely off topic, but I read the title as "romney gets chewed trying to fist sanity"......
He has more of a grasp on sanity than frothy mix..but truly... i snorted

Romney chewed on by Gingrich while trying to Fist Santorum. Paul holds video camera...

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RE: Romney gets chewed for trying fiscal sanity. - 2/22/2012 6:12:33 PM   
LookieNoNookie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

Romney states that spending cuts will slow economy, and disagree with republican dogma that spending cuts (except defense) solve everything. After much GOP screaming, Romney issues a "clarification" that defies explanation.

Look, I don't like big government. But government spending is a two-edged sword. On the one hand, since marginal spending is done by deficit spending, it increases the debt. Bad. But it also pumps out money into the economy short term. Good.

GOP orthodoxy is that tax cuts always trickle down and stimulate the economy, and that spending cuts result in extra energy in the economy. Weirdos.


As usual DS, you've got it dialed in.

I had a friend of mine call me last week (STOUT Republican.....I'm just yer basic Republican), he explained rather stringently to me that "these goddamn bastards are spending like there's no tomorrow....they just gotta fucking quit this shit" (he's a concrete guy). I explained to him that if "they" cut spending to the tune he thought was prudent, there'd be about 10 million fewer people (unemployed) able to afford new concrete decks, sidewalks and varying pretty things (made of concrete) at their homes, more foreclosures....etc., ad infinitum.

He said "well...what's your solution?"...I explained I don't have one since I frankly, am enjoying the candy as long as it lasts, but if they really want to solve the problem (I being a lifelong Republican) "they" (meaning...all of them) need to sit down and come up with a plan....quite a bit like the current Prez has.....and cut spending, raise taxes...but...(hopefully) come up with something concrete (no pun intended) that said "every buck we add to taxes, we cut spending by 5...and it just FUCKING sticks!!!!! PERIOD.....no fucking games...and everyone pays something....no more 90% of the taxes being paid by 3% of the population" (or whatever the incredibly fucked up math is).

And there's gonna be some pain in the interim...that's life.

Ron Paul said it well when asked how he'd manage the current budget deficit (I'm certain I'm not quoting him accurately):

"That's easy....I'd figure out what we took in last year, cut 5% off of that and tell every agency including SSI, Medicare and so on....you have 90 days to cut your budgets by that much...after that I'd simply strip them of that amount of funding. Next year, I'd take whatever we took in in the (current) year, cut that by 5% and say you have 90 days to......." etc.

Works for me.

That's what you and I do.

< Message edited by LookieNoNookie -- 2/22/2012 6:14:43 PM >

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RE: Romney gets chewed for trying fiscal sanity. - 2/22/2012 8:15:14 PM   
joether


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Time and again, I keep hearing conservatives say that cutting budget spending will improve the economy. Of course not one of them can explain that in any logical, economic sense. Once you shatter the mirrors and blow away the smoke of the arguements, you left with a huge amount of total bull droppings. Cutting that budget spending during a recession with high unemployment is silly at best and lunatic-ish at worst.

Consider the question: "How much does a $100 Billion in Budget Spending Buy/Maintain in US Jobs"? How much does $100 Billion actually pay in terms of US Jobs? Many people that I've had to educated on this particular subject can not give the basic answer to the question: "What does the United States buy with $3.2 Trillion dollars?" The country buys three general concepts: People, Finished Goods, Raw Materials. In order for the US Military to have all those yummy MRE's for disasters and the like, how did those packages get created? They didnt just *POOF* into existance, did they? Of course not! People had to package them up, and other people had to make sure the food got into those packages. Still another group of people has to deliver both the raw materials (to be made into food) and the finished product to its destinations. And of course the people that actually harvest the food to be send by trucks to be turned into MREs. That's alot of people? And that's just MRE's!

The figure I've heard thrown around over the last few years by economists points to between 750,000 to 950,000 US Jobs that are created/maintained by budget spending. These jobs are broken down into three seperate groups (from most numberous to least): Private Sector, 'Down Stream', and finally Public Sector. The 'Down Stream' jobs are the result of private and public sector jobs. People have to buy food, cloths, gas, etc, in order to maintain their daily lives; this stuff doesnt just *POOF* into existance....it has to come from some where, right?

Likewise, the goverment money being spent in the private sector is not a 'one salary fits all' sort of deal. People are paid at different salary/contract ranges. Some are paid at $60K/year and others (like upper management) net $300K/year. So if we consider $100 Billion in Budget Spending buys 'us' 800,000 US Jobs; than buying 32 units of $100 Billion (we bought $3.2 Trillion worth of 'stuff'), is the same as buying/maintaining 25.6 million jobs. If what Fellow states is correct, that number should be much higher.

So, cutting budget spending translates literally into jobs being cut. But these jobs are not cut immediately when Congress cuts the budget. Contracts the US Goverment holds with private business owners would have to be worked out, those cuts either eliminating business profits or dropping them significantly. The lost jobs would not be felt until later in the financial year for those companies. The laid off, may not even know that their pushing for Congress to cut the deficit ended up costing them their own job (that's whats called ironic politics). In order to cut the current deficit of $1.2 Trillion, would mean cutting budget spending by 12 units of $100 Billion or 9.6 million jobs being lost.

So how does tossing 9.6 million Americans to the unemployment line (and the numbers I give are conservative), DURING a recession with ALREADY high unemployment....HELP...the US Economy as Republicans state it would? The real answer is, it doesnt. Less people employed, means less money in 'circulation' of the money market machine (its a macro economics concept...), resulting in less need for jobs 'down stream', and less in taxes (resulting in a deeper deficit). Its a really vicious circle of events the Republicans have been trying to brainwash Americans on for a decade now. In the last few years since the recession started in 2006-2007, that brainwashing has gone into high gear. Not surprisingly, many uneducated types have listen to it and agree without ever once checking if the information is value and credible.

In my opinion, the removing the Bush Era Tax Cuts on the rich would be a wise idea. Since they in effect play lower taxes than most 'middle class' Americans (Mr. Romeny is a good example of this). Economists place the amount of revenue generated by this group to be $800-950 billion/year. In theory, that number too is conservative; so it may very well even out the deficit we currently are experiencing. You wish to cut budget spending? Wait until the economy is roaring and we have a herd of bulls....THEN...make some spending cuts.

So as funny as it may sound, Mr. Romeny is correct in standing budget cuts in the present or near future would slow the economy down. I just find it amusing that he got boo'd by the very morons he's trying to get votes from in the next election.

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RE: Romney gets chewed for trying fiscal sanity. - 2/22/2012 8:31:47 PM   
provfivetine


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Keynesian-style fiscal stimulus is like a drug. Once you shoot up the economy with it, the depression-like symptoms will subside and you get a high, but it comes with an eventual crash. Also, there is the potential for possible overdose (hyperinflation). Like a drug addict, tolerance develops, and it takes more stimulus to produce the desired effect. The drug addicts (Congress) are getting their drugs from the pusher (The FED). The king drug pusher (Bernanke) must be terrified right now since he's pledged to hold the federal funds rate at near zero until 2014 ( Free drugs for Congress until then!) and the economy has been in artificial recovery since Thanksgiving. This continued stimulus will lead to mass inflation, which is already developing.

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RE: Romney gets chewed for trying fiscal sanity. - 2/22/2012 8:34:40 PM   
SoftBonds


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Joether, you are obviously very informed, but I have to disagree slightly with you. Not in purpose, only in terms of a correction. Of the 3.2 Trillion, a significant portion is "transfer payments." Mostly Social Security and Unemployment Insurance. I don't think the numbers change noticeably, since a person who gets either of these payments is not likely to save the money up or invest it, so they are going out and buying stuff. However, that money is not spent by the Federal Government to create jobs.
If the Federal Government cut Social Security, for instance, it would cut very few Government jobs, and few Government contracts would end. But a lot of old folks would stop buying medicine, food, etc...

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RE: Romney gets chewed for trying fiscal sanity. - 2/22/2012 8:36:47 PM   
SoftBonds


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Meh, we've had mass inflation for most of the last 10 years, the feds just hid it by tweaking the market basket. "Your computer is twice as fast as it used to be, so it is worth twice as much. That means that the increases in the cost of food and gas are not important..."

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RE: Romney gets chewed for trying fiscal sanity. - 2/22/2012 9:03:25 PM   
provfivetine


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SoftBonds

Meh, we've had mass inflation for most of the last 10 years, the feds just hid it by tweaking the market basket. "Your computer is twice as fast as it used to be, so it is worth twice as much. That means that the increases in the cost of food and gas are not important..."


Exactly. The witchcraft that is hedonics masks the inflation even further, and food and gas aren't even in calculated in the core CPI!!!

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RE: Romney gets chewed for trying fiscal sanity. - 2/22/2012 11:36:05 PM   
Owner59


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Businesses raising prices and/or ripping consumers off is NOT the fed`s fault........sorry.

And other than consumer protection.....you know,"regulation"?hmmmm?......there`s not much the fed can do......sorry irrational fed haters.


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RE: Romney gets chewed for trying fiscal sanity. - 2/23/2012 3:56:47 AM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

I would ask people how they solve this problem?


STart with the bloated military.

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