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Mentoring and the male ego - 2/24/2012 2:30:36 AM

Thaelog

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Joined: 2/22/2012
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I find myself in unfamiliar territory and could use some perspective on it.

The situation at hand being that I am friends with a couple where she is very submissive, but with no formal training or even structured play. Generally he is alpha in his daily life and sporadically dips into dominance with her, but not at the level which she would like.

She is allowed to play with me up to about second base (pardon the jr. high euphemisms here) with his full knowledge, but not his participation. Lately though there has been discussion of taking it slightly further with him involved in so far as going to third base. I have been avoiding giving a concrete answer, but I am afraid it is coming to a crux which I can't put off much longer.

Any time in the past I have played with another man's partner, they have already had well defined rules and roles and it was straight forward from there. Helping her discover herself is familiar territory for me, but mentoring him I am not so sure of. I've never had to navigate a male ego other than my own. Added to that, he shows some tendency towards cuckoldry as well which I would not even begin to know how to help him with. It is something I myself have never had the slightest interest or experience in.

The stalled spot we are in is beginning to cause some stress. I know it has been difficult for both of them to open up and try to explore these aspects of themselves and I am flattered that they feel comfortable enough with me to ask for help. I just don't know that I have the insight for his part of things. The one thing that makes me hopeful is that at least the communication is great between all of us. I just want to make this a positive experience for them both.

I would like to hear about any similar experiences anyone else has had with this type of dynamic. See if anyone has some creative solutions.

Post #: 1

RE: Mentoring and the male ego - 2/24/2012 4:25:53 AM

DarkSteven

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1. My compliments to you. 99% of men would be jumping headlong into this to satisfy their cocks and damn the consequences. You're thinking of what's best for all concerned.
2. You're correct to be wary. This has the potential to explode. As it's going now, that's the likely outcome.
3. Just from your description, it sounds like he's a sub and she's driving this. He's only topping her because she demands it, and his topping was so unsatisfactory for them that he finally told her to go get someone else to scratch her itch.
4. This isn't mentoring. Mentoring is when you would train him to be her Dom. You're actually a substitute taking up the place he should be filling. This is a blend between cuckolding and poly.
5. They honestly need some firm written guidelines, agreed to by all three parties. I'd suggest a kink-friendly therapist. He needs to step up, she needs to cool her jets, or they (and you) need to agree upon some dynamic that includes you in a well-specified role in a poly relationship.
6. And I gotta say - I've never quite "gotten" cuckolding. The guy is playing with fire, allowing another man to top his wife without any rules or presence on his part. Either he trusts the crap out of you, or he IMO doesn't care if the relationship explodes out of his control.
7. Again, my compliments to you for the self-control you've shown. I'm not sure they deserve it.

< Message edited by DarkSteven -- 2/24/2012 4:56:33 AM >

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Post #: 2

RE: Mentoring and the male ego - 2/24/2012 4:52:55 AM

SaintAllie

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Steer clear is my outlook, you dont mention your previous relationships in this regard as having a good outcome.

It depends on whether you want to keep the friendship or not. I cant see this resolving itself easily.

Allie

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Post #: 3

RE: Mentoring and the male ego - 2/24/2012 5:07:30 AM

DaddySatyr

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I am not sanguine about anyone's ability to teach someone to be dominant. Certainly there are skills that are BDSM activities that can be learned but, I firmly believe that we are all "switches" and most of us lean toward one end of the spectrum or the other.

This guy may never be "dominant enough" for his wife. We'll never know. I just don't think it can be taught.

Peace and comfort,

Michael

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Post #: 4

RE: Mentoring and the male ego - 2/24/2012 5:25:18 AM

Madame4a

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From: Washington, DC area
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Very generally... I'd suggest staying clear of any type of play or sexual invovlement with these two. I would keep it on paper, so to speak -- theoretical and conversational.

They need to do a lot of their own homework, together and individually I think -- let's face it -- it sounds like, from what you've said, he's not even clear about who he is in this relationship. Its great for you to help them, but I have seen these things go badly. They seem great on paper and discussing them, but when that othet partner (this man) actually sees it and realizes what it means.. it might not go well.

Also in general, I think when playing with others.. all the relationships need to be very solid and the people involved need to know who they are and what they want.. and communicate that really well.

Good luck... don't just let them go.. but go back to the classroom so to speak.. and MENTOR.. don't play

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Post #: 5

RE: Mentoring and the male ego - 2/24/2012 7:21:13 AM

OsideGirl

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

I am not sanguine about anyone's ability to teach someone to be dominant. Certainly there are skills that are BDSM activities that can be learned

I agree with this. A mentor can teach you skills or help you navigate the community, but being dominant is a personality trait and cannot be taught.

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Post #: 6

RE: Mentoring and the male ego - 2/24/2012 8:26:50 AM

JeffBC

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From: Canada
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As DS said, great self-control... now step away entirely. Look, if the situation is muddy between the actual two people in the relationship then to you it's going to be more than muddy, it's going to be totally and completely opaque. I'd say you have the option of doing harm or doing lots of harm here. At least... with a hands on approach.

If you want to nurture this guys dominance and if he's so inclined then do so with words.

By the way, as much as all the nature folks love to say that you can't teach dominance I disagree and feel that... well... pretty much all of reality sides with me on that one. It certainly can be done. How long it takes and how effective it is depends a lot on the starting material and interest level.

Don't let the stalled spot cause stress. Be dominant yourself and say "no thank you." and be dominant enough to make it stick.

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(in reply to Thaelog)

Post #: 7

RE: Mentoring and the male ego - 2/24/2012 11:12:47 AM

Thaelog

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Joined: 2/22/2012
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Great perspectives everyone. Thank you. I am always supportive of people discovering themselves sexually or otherwise and want to encourage them along that path of discovery in the most healthy way possible.

(in reply to JeffBC)

Post #: 8

RE: Mentoring and the male ego - 2/24/2012 11:47:11 AM

Thaelog

Posts: 32
Joined: 2/22/2012
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

1. My compliments to you. 99% of men would be jumping headlong into this to satisfy their cocks and damn the consequences. You're thinking of what's best for all concerned.
2. You're correct to be wary. This has the potential to explode. As it's going now, that's the likely outcome.
3. Just from your description, it sounds like he's a sub and she's driving this. He's only topping her because she demands it, and his topping was so unsatisfactory for them that he finally told her to go get someone else to scratch her itch.
4. This isn't mentoring. Mentoring is when you would train him to be her Dom. You're actually a substitute taking up the place he should be filling. This is a blend between cuckolding and poly.
5. They honestly need some firm written guidelines, agreed to by all three parties. I'd suggest a kink-friendly therapist. He needs to step up, she needs to cool her jets, or they (and you) need to agree upon some dynamic that includes you in a well-specified role in a poly relationship.
6. And I gotta say - I've never quite "gotten" cuckolding. The guy is playing with fire, allowing another man to top his wife without any rules or presence on his part. Either he trusts the crap out of you, or he IMO doesn't care if the relationship explodes out of his control.
7. Again, my compliments to you for the self-control you've shown. I'm not sure they deserve it.

quote:

Joine

I love bullet points! Makes responding easier.
1. My thought is that anyone who can't even control his own cock is going to be a disaster trying to control anyone else. I think that is why a lot of people fail to see the transcendent possibilities of it all.
2. I agree, I stepped in it. My fault though. As many times as I have found surprising proclivities in people I made the mistake of assuming the swinging was the only dynamic here and that it was well understood. Gotta keep my head on a swivel at all times and not discount the unintentional impact of myself in any given situation.
3. I would have to agree with you here. Were he a female, his actions would have lead me to this conclusion, but what drives a male's submission is foreign to me. Or at least I thought it was. Maybe the drives are more common than unique to the sexes than I thought. Hmmm, that kind of uncovered an unconscious bias on my part. I'll have to think on that at length.
4. Once again, hit it on the head. I think advocacy is the better role to play here.
5. I think everything needs to be brought back to basics and re-examined in light of how the original basis of relating has wondered from the path.
6. He does trust the crap out of me, and that has been both a good thing and a bad thing. He is aware of the level of self control I exhibit and I think he has been using it as a crutch to avoid having to make a firm call himself. The more I think about his actions the more familiar they become when I remove the gender bias I had. LOL, it kinda pisses me off now that I realize I am being manipulated by a closet bottom.
7. They are deserving of it. They are very dear friends who have just found themselves in a new place in their relationship they never anticipated being. I would give anyone the same benefit of my support until they prove undeserving. I know my own journey is not always the easiest and that leads me to a natural empathy for fellow travelers.

< Message edited by Thaelog -- 2/24/2012 12:01:47 PM >

(in reply to DarkSteven)

Post #: 9

RE: Mentoring and the male ego - 2/24/2012 11:53:28 AM

Thaelog

Posts: 32
Joined: 2/22/2012
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SaintAllie

Steer clear is my outlook, you dont mention your previous relationships in this regard as having a good outcome.

It depends on whether you want to keep the friendship or not. I cant see this resolving itself easily.

Allie

Part of the issue being there has never been a relationship with this aspect before. I have rarely played with couples, and never in a D/s way. I think my subconscious was telling me something there.

The friendship is important above all other considerations, and I agree there is no easy resolution to this. Nothing worthwhile is ever easy though. I think backing out my active involvement in this and assuming the cheerleader/confidant role is probably the appropriate move here that will most likely lead to a positive outcome, or at the very least not damage the friendship.

< Message edited by Thaelog -- 2/24/2012 12:02:33 PM >

(in reply to SaintAllie)

Post #: 10

RE: Mentoring and the male ego - 2/24/2012 11:58:25 AM

Thaelog

Posts: 32
Joined: 2/22/2012
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

I am not sanguine about anyone's ability to teach someone to be dominant. Certainly there are skills that are BDSM activities that can be learned but, I firmly believe that we are all "switches" and most of us lean toward one end of the spectrum or the other.

This guy may never be "dominant enough" for his wife. We'll never know. I just don't think it can be taught.

Peace and comfort,

Michael

I have a tendency to agree with you there. I don't think anything about the human condition is black and white. I think the key is to encourage expression of whatever is to be found inside yourself. Often labels can be detrimental to that.

Any part of me that may be sub though is miniscule. I don't even like to be bound by words :-D

< Message edited by Thaelog -- 2/24/2012 12:03:46 PM >

(in reply to DaddySatyr)

Post #: 11

RE: Mentoring and the male ego - 2/24/2012 1:29:37 PM

DesFIP

Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
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I can understand them wanting your help fulfilling themselves and finding out what they need. But I would refuse to play and have sex. What you can do easily is give them lists of books to read, take them to a local munch, link them to a BDSM checklist: that kind of stuff. And just be a sounding board when they want to talk about what they read.

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Post #: 12

RE: Mentoring and the male ego - 2/24/2012 3:34:18 PM

Thaelog

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Joined: 2/22/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

I can understand them wanting your help fulfilling themselves and finding out what they need. But I would refuse to play and have sex. What you can do easily is give them lists of books to read, take them to a local munch, link them to a BDSM checklist: that kind of stuff. And just be a sounding board when they want to talk about what they read.

Yeah, they are mutually exclusive roles.

(in reply to DesFIP)

Post #: 13

RE: Mentoring and the male ego - 2/26/2012 9:41:20 AM

Arturas

Posts: 3245
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quote:

I would like to hear about any similar experiences anyone else has had with this type of dynamic. See if anyone has some creative solutions.

Nope. Sorry. I'm amazed all these others had similar experiences. I need to get out more.

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Post #: 14

RE: Mentoring and the male ego - 2/26/2012 12:21:37 PM

Thaelog

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Joined: 2/22/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arturas

Nope. Sorry. I'm amazed all these others had similar experiences. I need to get out more.

Hah! Me either till now. So don't feel bad. One thing I do love about the lifestyle is that there is always something new around the bend.

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I smiled and said no
The lie ran down my chin like embryo

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Post #: 15

RE: Mentoring and the male ego - 3/2/2012 8:30:08 PM

Alecta

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I would suggest approaching this as if you were mentoring him as a non-sexual sub, if your determined to go down this road with them. Communication, communication. All three of you need to know exactly where you are at with each other, and agree on what you will all do if things go badly Would it be better for you to stop and talk to them or stop and leave and talk to them later? How can you help to ease the tension between her and him?

Give him a safeword to use for any point he is uncomfortable. Make sure that him and her maintain a connection (such as eye contact or a similar predicament, or leash her and give the leash to him to hold) when you do the scene.

Find out what he wants and where that comes from. Is it that he thinks it's hot to see her be handled by you? Or that it's hot for him to watch and not be able to do anything about it? Or is he wanting to learn what you do to take over? It is important you find out whether he's into being a cuckold or wanting to take your place in the dynamic before proceeding anywhere since the two present several conflicting situations... for example, if he's into cuckolding then he might like his male ego being stepped on a bit, whereas that's generally an unpleasant thing if he means to be mentored.

You should admit your hesitance and lack of expertise to them, be the friend and be willing to learning with them. It is possible that if you just back off they will take it as rejection and you will lose the closeness in your friendship, so be quite careful about making that exit.

(in reply to Thaelog)

Post #: 16

RE: Mentoring and the male ego - 3/12/2012 12:39:55 AM

antipode

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You're writing this like a therapist discussing a patient with another therapist. You're not, try to begin simplifying your life, simplifying your lusts, and simplifying your language. "second base'"? "dynamic"? This is "distant" language, it exudes a manipulative personality, let me suggest that you don't "navigate your ego", but find it first.

(in reply to Thaelog)

Post #: 17

RE: Mentoring and the male ego - 3/14/2012 4:37:08 PM

mstrj69

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On a different note let me say that those who are dominant in their daily roles at work sometimes do make the best submissives so your opinion that he actually is submissive is probably right.

What can you do about it, try writing up a set of rules for them or for the three of you to follow and then have them do the same thing. Then you can all three compare the notes of the other two and decide which will work best for all three combined.

If he does not wanting you to go past second base with her but is submissive, you can tell him exactly what to do to or with her when you feel she needs that move past second base. Thus he is happy because it is him doing it to her or he will decide that what you want him to do is not what he wants to do and thus show his desire to be more dominant and give you an excuse to tell him to take more control.

In the end you may wind up being a sounding board for the two of them and still being friends with both of them but nothing more.

(in reply to antipode)

Post #: 18

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