RE: Caesar, Nero, et al.

RE: Caesar, Nero, et al. (Full Version)

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Kana -> RE: Caesar, Nero, et al. (3/4/2012 11:27:13 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Owner59 quote: ORIGINAL: MASTERMOLDER Are you people out of your minds???? We pay about 80% of our income in taxes of one form or another. Be it gas tax, sales tax, luxery tax, ciggerate tax, alcahol tax, not to mention income tax. If our great leaders can not run the country on that kind of income then we need to hold their feet to the fire and remove them from office, be it by election or recall. Our problem in this country is that we are too damn lazy to take the time and the responsibility to act. Sooooo, where does the blame lie? With you and me 80%? Care to explain that? Yeah, I think in America even the highest tax brackets max out at about 50% of gross income when ya add up all the little taxes and bites the govt takes

Anaxagoras -> RE: Caesar, Nero, et al. (3/4/2012 11:44:06 AM)
The question as I see it comes down to direct or indirect democracy. When direct democracy existed in Athens, the paragon of nation state democracy at the time, there were concerns about it. Socrates and Plato disliked the system intensely because the “ignorant” masses were ruling the roost, which resulted in their nation loosing the Thirty Years War against Sparta, and ultimately Athenian culture fading… Another issue is that the technology to introduce direct democracy would no doubt be electronic. That would be a red-flag issue for Ron Paul and the conspiracist loons. For once they just might have a point because electronic voting has a lot of issues due to complexity. Where I am they spent hundreds of millions developing and building “e-voting” technology only to find it could be tampered with. Then it was stored away for a good few years accruing tens of millions more in costs. I make the point because could such examples of ridiculous waste and indecision be the result of real “democracy” in action? It does seem democracies are extremely wasteful. The moral here is Democracy = waste, non-democracy = tyranny. Maybe true democracy will always have some gridlock from the “fat asses” in the seats?

Hippiekinkster -> RE: Caesar, Nero, et al. (3/4/2012 11:46:31 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slvemike4u quote: ORIGINAL: kalikshama 75.2% of statistics are made up on the spot. [8D] How did you reach that number...I ,myself arrived at 66.66 % [:)] That's true only 4.57% of the time, +/- 0.2%.

MDomCouple -> RE: Caesar, Nero, et al. (3/4/2012 12:18:26 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Owner59 quote: ORIGINAL: MDomCouple quote: ORIGINAL: Owner59 quote: ORIGINAL: MDomCouple quote: ORIGINAL: Moonhead I'd imagine the main issue with a scheme like that is how access to universal assemblies would be set up, and how everybody's access could be insured in a population the size of yours. The only time a system like that has ever been tried is communes with a population of a few hundred tops or Greek city states where around five sixths of the population were barred from the assemblies. Then there's the education DK refers to, though I suspect that's rather less of an issue given the taste most of your elected representatives have for dumbing down any debate to a scarily reductive and witless level. (Not sure what Caesar and Nero have to do with this, btw: they were both unelected Emperors who allowed certain powers to devolve to the richer members of the aristocracy. No bastard else got a voice, never mind a vote, in the glory that was Rome...) Exactly. There are several political structures that would work great in theory, but on the scale necessary to run a large country they would fall apart. Democracy and Communism being the most obvious two. Both would work great, in theory, if the population was kept to a small number. But, once you increase the numbers to the size of the United States (or nearly any country on the planet), it becomes untenable. I don't think the American political system is perfect, by any means, and there are certainly a whole host of elected representatives who don't take the time to educate themselves before voting. But, in the end, I'd still choose a Republic over a Democracy any day. Ummmm....it`s not a pure republic .......either........ Oh, I know. But, in the grand scheme of things it is closer to a Republic than a Democracy. I was just being succinct for the sake of discussion. I suppose I should have said "I'll still choose a quasi-Republic with Democratic, Socialist, and Fascist tendencies over a pure Democracy any day." And this semantics game is meaningful ,how? Please..... do tell..... I'm not playing a semantics game. I was just attempting to be succinct earlier. But, hey, if you want to get upset...that's on you.

Moonhead -> RE: Caesar, Nero, et al. (3/4/2012 12:46:26 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras The question as I see it comes down to direct or indirect democracy. When direct democracy existed in Athens, the paragon of nation state democracy at the time, there were concerns about it. Socrates and Plato disliked the system intensely because the “ignorant” masses were ruling the roost, which resulted in their nation loosing the Thirty Years War against Sparta, and ultimately Athenian culture fading… The Athenian culture didn't let anybody but "fat asses" vote in the first place, though. No women, no slaves or helots, no more than a fifth of the population being entitled to have a say. That's hardly rule by the ignorant masses. If that's how a "true" democracy is supposed to work, fuck off with it. The only reason the Libertarians like the idea is because Robert Heinlein bigged it up a few times in the '50s. I think he liked the notion about the only way a helot could get into the assemblies was if they'd had a distinguished military career, as he'd picked up on that in a big way for Starship Troopers. Of course, if he was aware that in that context "distinguished" meant a little more "invalidated out early due to TB and then spending the rest of your life whining about it", he did his best to keep that under wraps...

Owner59 -> RE: Caesar, Nero, et al. (3/4/2012 12:47:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kana quote: ORIGINAL: Owner59 quote: ORIGINAL: MASTERMOLDER Are you people out of your minds???? We pay about 80% of our income in taxes of one form or another. Be it gas tax, sales tax, luxery tax, ciggerate tax, alcahol tax, not to mention income tax. If our great leaders can not run the country on that kind of income then we need to hold their feet to the fire and remove them from office, be it by election or recall. Our problem in this country is that we are too damn lazy to take the time and the responsibility to act. Sooooo, where does the blame lie? With you and me 80%? Care to explain that? Yeah, I think in America even the highest tax brackets max out at about 50% of gross income when ya add up all the little taxes and bites the govt takes We pay the least amount of taxes than any other 1st world nation. If you know a place where there`s a better deal,please give us the name and place before you move there. Now please don`t claim corporate-America pays the highest tax rate either........ cuz they don`t.

Moonhead -> RE: Caesar, Nero, et al. (3/4/2012 12:49:58 PM)
[img]http://www.michaelarnoldart.com/M-0137v3wham.jpg[/img] Do they pay any taxes at all in Lichtenstein?

Owner59 -> RE: Caesar, Nero, et al. (3/4/2012 12:55:52 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MDomCouple quote: ORIGINAL: Owner59 quote: ORIGINAL: MDomCouple quote: ORIGINAL: Owner59 quote: ORIGINAL: MDomCouple quote: ORIGINAL: Moonhead I'd imagine the main issue with a scheme like that is how access to universal assemblies would be set up, and how everybody's access could be insured in a population the size of yours. The only time a system like that has ever been tried is communes with a population of a few hundred tops or Greek city states where around five sixths of the population were barred from the assemblies. Then there's the education DK refers to, though I suspect that's rather less of an issue given the taste most of your elected representatives have for dumbing down any debate to a scarily reductive and witless level. (Not sure what Caesar and Nero have to do with this, btw: they were both unelected Emperors who allowed certain powers to devolve to the richer members of the aristocracy. No bastard else got a voice, never mind a vote, in the glory that was Rome...) Exactly. There are several political structures that would work great in theory, but on the scale necessary to run a large country they would fall apart. Democracy and Communism being the most obvious two. Both would work great, in theory, if the population was kept to a small number. But, once you increase the numbers to the size of the United States (or nearly any country on the planet), it becomes untenable. I don't think the American political system is perfect, by any means, and there are certainly a whole host of elected representatives who don't take the time to educate themselves before voting. But, in the end, I'd still choose a Republic over a Democracy any day. Ummmm....it`s not a pure republic .......either........ Oh, I know. But, in the grand scheme of things it is closer to a Republic than a Democracy. I was just being succinct for the sake of discussion. I suppose I should have said "I'll still choose a quasi-Republic with Democratic, Socialist, and Fascist tendencies over a pure Democracy any day." And this semantics game is meaningful ,how? Please..... do tell..... I'm not playing a semantics game. I was just attempting to be succinct earlier. But, hey, if you want to get upset...that's on you. From this point forward.....I absolve you of worrying about upsetting me. And I promise not to worry about upsetting you. Now please tell us......why this word game? Democracies and republics aren`t mutually exclusive...... What`s the point? This is like saying an orange is not a fruit because it`s not an apple........and just as rediculous.

MDomCouple -> RE: Caesar, Nero, et al. (3/4/2012 1:02:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Owner59 From this point forward.....I absolve you of worrying about upsetting me. And I promise not to worry about upsetting you. Now please tell us......why this word game? Democracies and republics aren`t mutually exclusive...... What`s the point? This is like saying an orange is not a fruit because it`s not an apple........and just as rediculous. I'm not playing a word game here, and if you think that I am then I am very confused. I pointed out in my original response that I would prefer a Republic over a true Democracy any day. Do I know that the two aren't mutually exclusive? Certainly. However, there are some key differences between the two. A Republic relies on elected officials to vote on key issues on behalf of constituents. A true Democracy has all citizens voting equally on all issues. That is not what the US has, nor do I think it would be a system the US could ever hope to have (due to size and population). But, when you pointed out that the US isn't a pure Republic, I added that I was simply attempting to be concise in my original post. It wasn't a semantic game, it wasn't an attempt to obfuscate anything or confuse the point. Since the US most resembles a Republic, at least in terms of true Democracy vs true Republic, I chose that term for simplicity sake. However, I also added that the US would best be described as a Republic with Democratic, Socialist, and Fascist tendencies. We aren't a true Republic, I know. I was simply attempting to be succinct, and then I expanded for clarification purposes. If that came across as me playing word games, I'm sorry. I certainly didn't intend it to.

DaNewAgeViking -> RE: Caesar, Nero, et al. (3/4/2012 1:21:00 PM)
Robert A Heinlein, the famous science fiction author, once noted that 'Vox populi vox Dei' loosely translates to 'My God, how did we get into this mess?' Popular sovereignty is a nice idea, but it simply doesn't take into account for human greed, arrogance, ignorance, stupidity, etc. The initiative petition process mentioned is a prime example of bad government. As for those Washington fat-cats, the solution is greater accountability - make it easy to recall them if they do something wrong - say 10% of the popular vote if they commit certain specific acts (but not in general). Do that, and they, or their successors, would sing a whole different tune. [sm=soapbox.gif]

Anaxagoras -> RE: Caesar, Nero, et al. (3/4/2012 1:22:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Moonhead quote: ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras The question as I see it comes down to direct or indirect democracy. When direct democracy existed in Athens, the paragon of nation state democracy at the time, there were concerns about it. Socrates and Plato disliked the system intensely because the “ignorant” masses were ruling the roost, which resulted in their nation loosing the Thirty Years War against Sparta, and ultimately Athenian culture fading… The Athenian culture didn't let anybody but "fat asses" vote in the first place, though. No women, no slaves or helots, no more than a fifth of the population being entitled to have a say. That's hardly rule by the ignorant masses. It was almost all adult male citizens so perhaps around one-fifth of the populace, as you suggest, since Athens had loads of slaves. Mind you aliens who lived there permanently couldn't be expected to have the right to vote as they don't nowadays either. The Athenian system was in a sense better than what we had until the mid to late 19th Century where only male land owners could vote, and they were very few. BTW I thought the Helots were the permanent slave populace in Sparta? quote: If that's how a "true" democracy is supposed to work, fuck off with it. The only reason the Libertarians like the idea is because Robert Heinlein bigged it up a few times in the '50s. I think he liked the notion about the only way a helot could get into the assemblies was if they'd had a distinguished military career, as he'd picked up on that in a big way for Starship Troopers. Of course, if he was aware that in that context "distinguished" meant a little more "invalidated out early due to TB and then spending the rest of your life whining about it", he did his best to keep that under wraps... You mean slaves or helots? I reckon though most or all who would advocate the Athenian system today wouldn't suggest women couldn't vote, and certainly wouldn't exclude slaves either... [:D]

Moonhead -> RE: Caesar, Nero, et al. (3/4/2012 1:27:07 PM)
I think a helot was technically a freed slave (a permanent underclass who could only get a whiff of social mobility/full citizenship if they joined the army and survived), but it's a long time since I studied the classics so I could be wrong about that. Another group I forgot to mention who couldn't participate in Athenian democracy was foreigners. Didn't matter how long you'd lived in Athens or how much you'd contributed to Athenian society: if you weren't born in the city state you remained a foreigner until they planted you.

MDomCouple -> RE: Caesar, Nero, et al. (3/4/2012 1:27:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DaNewAgeViking Robert A Heinlein, the famous science fiction author, once noted that 'Vox populi vox Dei' loosely translates to 'My God, how did we get into this mess?' Popular sovereignty is a nice idea, but it simply doesn't take into account for human greed, arrogance, ignorance, stupidity, etc. The initiative petition process mentioned is a prime example of bad government. As for those Washington fat-cats, the solution is greater accountability - make it easy to recall them if they do something wrong - say 10% of the popular vote if they commit certain specific acts (but not in general). Do that, and they, or their successors, would sing a whole different tune. [sm=soapbox.gif] I'm happy with how the recall system works now, but I think there should be term limits on all elected officials. Get elected, do your job, then go back to your community and work with the rest of the shlubs you used to represent. Also, I think residency restrictions need to be MUCH stricter for nationally elected officials. One of the senators from my state hasn't actually lived in my state since 1977. Yet, for some reason, he seems to think that is okay. Hell, he sold the house he lived in 35 years ago, and STILL claims that as his legal address...thus qualifying to run for the Senate. The fact that this okay, legally, is fucking insane.

dcnovice -> RE: Caesar, Nero, et al. (3/4/2012 1:39:30 PM)
quote: Winston Churchill once said: "The best argument against democracy is five minutes, spent with the average voter." True. But he also said, "It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried."

Musicmystery -> RE: Caesar, Nero, et al. (3/4/2012 1:46:03 PM)
quote: When direct democracy existed in Athens When direct democracy existed in Athens, it was only wealthy white men who all lived in the same geographic area.

LadyHibiscus -> RE: Caesar, Nero, et al. (3/4/2012 1:48:41 PM)
Many people are genuinely stupid. Not just ignorant of the zeitgeist and not up on current events, but genuinely not capable of abstract thought stupid. I am just fine with not having them speak directly to every govenrment issue.

lady4dad -> RE: Caesar, Nero, et al. (3/4/2012 1:51:06 PM)
Athens is history you can watch it working in Switzerland

Anaxagoras -> RE: Caesar, Nero, et al. (3/4/2012 2:20:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery quote: When direct democracy existed in Athens When direct democracy existed in Athens, it was only wealthy white men who all lived in the same geographic area. To the best of my knowledge there was significant poverty in Athens just like any other place at the time. What qualified male citizens to vote was a period of military service, which seems more equitable than qualifying by owning land which was almost exclusively in the domain of wealthy in the 19th Century.

Musicmystery -> RE: Caesar, Nero, et al. (3/4/2012 2:42:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery quote: When direct democracy existed in Athens When direct democracy existed in Athens, it was only wealthy white men who all lived in the same geographic area. To the best of my knowledge there was significant poverty in Athens just like any other place at the time. What qualified male citizens to vote was a period of military service, which seems more equitable than qualifying by owning land which was almost exclusively in the domain of wealthy in the 19th Century. Begs the question. A tangent. Still not direct democracy in the sense of all the people contributing instead of a portion speaking for them.

Yachtie -> RE: Caesar, Nero, et al. (3/4/2012 2:46:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus Many people are genuinely stupid. Not just ignorant of the zeitgeist and not up on current events, but genuinely not capable of abstract thought stupid. I am just fine with not having them speak directly to every govenrment issue. And which people would those be? Can you qualify your statement a little more succinctly? For instance, people who reside >2std to the right on the curve are more capable of abstract thought than the majority clustered +/- 1std about the mean. The biggest problem I see with assigning governance of the zeitgeist to the mentally gifted is that even the gifted, being human, can work to selfish ends and use the mean clustered proletariat for their own interests. Democracy, even within a republican form of governance, is probably one of the worse methods of governance there is as the people may, by virtue of being of the electorate, vote themselves sustenance. It matters not whether people speak directly to government or not. The four stages of governance are historically valid and every nation gets the government it deserves.

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