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RE: Caesar, Nero, et al. - 3/4/2012 2:53:47 PM   
LadyHibiscus


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I admit that I am jaded regarding the average brain trust out there.  My career started out as a teacher of the learning disabled (that's what they were called in the 80's) and I went on to work with taxes... explain THAT to the public!  I see a lot of different people, and listen to many many political views while holding back on my own.  Education has fuck-all to do with common sense or common touch.  While I am very much in favor of abolishing the electoral college and installing something like a popular vote for the presidency, I do not think I want every person with internet access to have instant access to decisionmaking for all of us.

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RE: Caesar, Nero, et al. - 3/4/2012 3:09:14 PM   
Yachtie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus

Education has fuck-all to do with common sense or common touch.  While I am very much in favor of abolishing the electoral college and installing something like a popular vote for the presidency, I do not think I want every person with internet access to have instant access to decisionmaking for all of us.


Popular vote is just that. It either is or is not. Direct democracy, versus indirect (US), has elements both better and worse. (The Electoral College is one current element of better, as it potentially stands in the way of the peoples worst instincts which you recognize above.) The worse is that 51% may dictate to the 49%, or otherwise as the law may be declared. Two wolves, one sheep. The better side is that it's not easy getting the people as a whole to agree on much of anything so governance may find itself stiffed. Not a bad thing given government's propensity to increase to extremes.

I'll posit that the best form of governance possible is a truly benevolent Monarchy. Unfortunately, as a Monarchy is deemed hereditary, there exists the probability of acquiring a Nero at some point. Just the odds mind you.

< Message edited by Yachtie -- 3/4/2012 3:11:07 PM >


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RE: Caesar, Nero, et al. - 3/4/2012 3:17:47 PM   
Edwynn


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quote:


you can watch it working in Switzerland



And the functioning of a direct democracy in a country with population of less than 8 million says... what? about how this would translate to country with population of 313 million? The greater population size and even more so an economy almost three times larger than the next, well over 3/4 of the European Union's, has the most powerful interests in the world inviting themselves to the party, unlike in Switzerland or similar sized countries.

One example of how direct democracy 'works' in the US would be California's (pop. 37.7m) Proposition 87. The proposal to install a severance tax for oil extraction (as exists in Alaska, Louisiana & Texas) for purpose of financing alternative energy was defeated 55% to 45% or, more accurately, $94,430,014 to $61,886,129. This after polls showed voters to be  60%in favor at the outset. Here's how 'direct' democracy worked on that occasion:

http://www.tyrannyofoil.org/article.php?id=541

{Media inquiries made to the oil companies were diverted to the campaign's front group, Californians Against Higher Taxes, virtually 100 percent funded by oil company money, or to the California Chamber of Commerce — a huge recipi­ent of oil industry largesse on the local, state, and national levels with boards of directors littered with past and present oil industry executives.

The mantra repeated in ev­ery ad, mailer, and by every spokesperson focused on the one thing that scares Californi­ans even more than global warming: higher gas prices.

Prop 87 opponents argued that prices would go up because costs would rise and oil com­panies would be forced to abandon California. This claim was supported by an "indepen­dent" expert analysis provided by LECG, a consulting firm, which, as it turned out, had been paid over $94,000 by the opponents of Prop 87 to write the report and share the re­sults with the public.

Economists challenged as specious the claim that gas prices would rise and the com­panies would be forced to leave the state. The tax was simply too small to have any meaningful impact on the ex­penditures of these mega cor­porations — the wealthiest companies in world history.}


Ms. Juhasz goes into much greater and more damning detail on Prop. 87 in her excellent book, The Tyranny of Oil, which, as much as any other single book would explain that all a national direct democracy would accomplish is a changing of tactics by the same players that trouble the country now, with equal or actually likely even greater success.

The media conglomerates would bring forth all these 'objective' reports from 'disinterested' parties (all in fact being well funded by interested parties) for every proposition or referendum. Direct democracy in the true spirit of the term is impossible here.




< Message edited by Edwynn -- 3/4/2012 3:33:39 PM >

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RE: Caesar, Nero, et al. - 3/4/2012 5:22:42 PM   
SternSkipper


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quote:

Do they pay any taxes at all in Lichtenstein?


Wow Moon ... Politics and a show... very cool


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RE: Caesar, Nero, et al. - 3/4/2012 7:04:41 PM   
DownrightEvil


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras
Another issue is that the technology to introduce direct democracy would no doubt be electronic. That would be a red-flag issue for Ron Paul and the conspiracist loons. For once they just might have a point because electronic voting has a lot of issues due to complexity.


One doesn't have to be a conspiracy theorist to have serious reservations about electronic voting. Challenge Accepted!

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RE: Caesar, Nero, et al. - 3/4/2012 7:21:20 PM   
Edwynn


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Diebold & Bush already proved it for most people.



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RE: Caesar, Nero, et al. - 3/4/2012 7:29:14 PM   
Anaxagoras


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
quote:

ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
quote:

When direct democracy existed in Athens

When direct democracy existed in Athens, it was only wealthy white men who all lived in the same geographic area.

To the best of my knowledge there was significant poverty in Athens just like any other place at the time. What qualified male citizens to vote was a period of military service, which seems more equitable than qualifying by owning land which was almost exclusively in the domain of wealthy in the 19th Century.

Begs the question. A tangent.

Still not direct democracy in the sense of all the people contributing instead of a portion speaking for them.

I'm not defending Athenian democracy - I think such a system would be a bad idea today. However, it was direct democracy since no one was representing anyone else although there were generals like Pericles, and some officials that acted a bit like a civil service that served for a limited term to avoid favoritism. The choice made over significant issues was by referenda. Democracy was rule of the many - a word they created. Indeed "the many" didn't include women but they weren't even regarded as having souls in those days so their interests were seen as neither here nor there - a common bigotry in the ancient world, and slaves were the unfree so it would be a bizarre thing for them to have the vote.

I acknowledged it was only in effect for 20% of the populace but my point was about putting the system in its context. If there was any voting to speak of at in states all up until the modern era it was amongst such a tiny portion of the populace that it could hardly be called anything other than oligarchy - at best a few percent had the right. If we consider that broadly speaking democracy only spread to the landless in the 19th Century, and female voters in the 20th Century, the Athenian 20% represented a much better than average representation for 2000+ years. Poverty was pointedly not an impediment to serving the state. The system was introduced to avoid absolute power by a tyranny. It was a very radical idea that a lot of brutal monarchies like Sparta were very afraid of so I think the ancient Athenians deserve some cred even if they didn't get it 100% right at the time.

BTW you mentioned in a previous post that the Athenian voters were white. They would've been white but there wasn't the same big black-white racial divide in the ancient world.

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RE: Caesar, Nero, et al. - 3/4/2012 8:51:28 PM   
SternSkipper


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quote:

One doesn't have to be a conspiracy theorist to have serious reservations about electronic voting. Challenge Accepted!


BENDER???? Dude, I'm with Edwynn ... think November 2000.


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Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Caesar, Nero, et al. - 3/4/2012 9:00:13 PM   
Anaxagoras


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DownrightEvil
quote:

ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras
Another issue is that the technology to introduce direct democracy would no doubt be electronic. That would be a red-flag issue for Ron Paul and the conspiracist loons. For once they just might have a point because electronic voting has a lot of issues due to complexity.


One doesn't have to be a conspiracy theorist to have serious reservations about electronic voting. Challenge Accepted!

Geez, I hope no one on here thinks I'm an Illooninati conspiracist! BTW Bender would make a great leader. I recall one episode when a giant rubbish tip was coming back to earth. It was to strike New York. Upon hearing the news that it would kill millions, Bender proclaimed "ah boo-hoo"! Now thats the kind of unsentimental leadership a nation truly needs...

_____________________________

"That woman, as nature has created her, and man at present is educating her, is man's enemy. She can only be his slave or his despot, but never his companion." (Venus in Furs)

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RE: Caesar, Nero, et al. - 3/4/2012 10:10:06 PM   
DownrightEvil


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SternSkipper

quote:

One doesn't have to be a conspiracy theorist to have serious reservations about electronic voting. Challenge Accepted!


BENDER???? Dude, I'm with Edwynn ... think November 2000.



LOL! Yes, Bender. My reason for linking that article was, regardless of what you believe of of the past successes or failures of electronic voting, the magnitude of ineptitude that some agencies are capable of is astounding. When you have hackers locking down your system because they're being to distracted by other hackers pouring into your system, you might just have a security problem.

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