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RE: A serious discussion about cuckolding - 3/8/2012 7:15:49 PM   
MrBukani


Posts: 1920
Joined: 4/18/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

Come on, Lady Hib, admit it. You're just too nice for this cuckolding stuff, aren't you? That's the fundamental problem here.

Well, as far as I'm concerned, there are worse faults in this world. You stick to your guns, my lovely lady.

I see lots of nakedness following peon. Dirty Bastard.

(in reply to PeonForHer)
Profile   Post #: 141
RE: A serious discussion about cuckolding - 3/8/2012 8:58:22 PM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline 		These are the two statements that you made that I have asked you several times to support:

quote:

ORIGINAL: xssve
It's technically a form of polyandry.


quote:

ORIGINAL: xssve
Only if you make the assumption that evolution follows anything but it's own rationales. i.e., it's still polyandry: one male is contributing sperm, the other is sharing reproductive costs - this applies in spite of the existence of artificial forms of birth control, or what the duration of the relationship is - prostitution is polyandry too.

Your most recent "third link down" post is a duplicate of the one that is to the New York Times editorial page for a book review.  (Which, without logging in there, is not accessible.)  That's four shots at the opportunity to show support of either of the statements highlighted above. 

At least we have something in common.  I'm not so good with links, either.  Be patient. 

Xeromag | BDSM Glossary

CUCKOLD: One whose partner practices cuckoldry. Usage: Most often refers to a man whose partner practices cuckoldry by having sex with other partners, though occasionally used to describe women as well. For the female equivalent, see cuckquean. CUCKOLDRY: The practice by which a dominant takes one or more sexual partners other than his or her submissive, for the purpose of humiliating the submissive. Commentary: Cuckoldry is distinct from the practice of »polyamory« in the sense that it is done in a context where the submissive has no direct control over the dominant's other partners, and the primary purpose is to humiliate the submissive. Those who are aroused by cuckoldry are most often attracted to the humiliation and powerlessness aspects of it. The majority of the people who practice cuckoldry as a sexual fetish are women, who humiliate their male partners by having sex with other men. CUCKQUEAN: One whose partner practices cuckoldry. Usage: Always refers to a woman whose partner has sex with other people.
POLYAMORY: (Literally, poly many + amor love) The state or practice of maintaining multiple sexual and/or romantic relationships simultaneously, with the full knowledge and consent of all the people involved. Polyamorous: of or related to the practice of polyamory, as in polyamorous relationship: a relationship involving more than two people, or open to involvement by more than two people; polyamorous person: a person who prefers or is open to romantic relationships with more than one partner simultaneously. Contrast monogamy; See related polyfidelity, triad, quad, vee, N, polygamy, polygyny, polyandry, swinging, responsible non-monogamy. Commentary: There is some debate over the origin of the word. The Oxford English Dictionary attributes the word to Jennifer Wesp, who founded the newsgroup alt.polyamory in 1992. The term polyamorous is often attributed to Morning Glory Zell, who used it to describe situations in which a person engages in multiple loving, committed relationships simultaneously in the essay "A Boquet of Lovers." It appears that both people coined the term independently and simultaneously. Polyamory is not necessarily related directly to marriage or to polygamy; a person may have no spouse or only one spouse and still be polyamorous. Many people use the term "polyamory" to describe only those relationships in which a person has multiple loving partners; some people have extended the term to include relationships in which a person has multiple sexual partners regardless of the emotional component or degree of commitment between them, though this meaning was not a part of Morning Glory Zell's original intent for the word. In 1992, when the editors of the Oxford English Dictionary contacted Morning Glory Zell to ask for a formal definition and background of the word; part of her response was "The two essential ingredients of the concept of "polyamory" are "more than one" and "loving." That is, it is expected that the people in such relationships have a loving emotional bond, are involved in each other's lives multi-dimensionally, and care for each other. This term is not intended to apply to merely casual recreational sex, anonymous orgies, one-night stands, pick-ups, prostitution, "cheating," serial monogamy, or the popular definition of swinging as "mate-swapping" parties." POLYANDRY: (Literally, poly many + andros man) The state or practice of having multiple wedded husbands at the same time. Contrast monogamy; see related polygamy, polygyny, bigamy.
Another source: reddit.com: help

Another on definitions:  How_To_Start_A_Kinky_Relationship-PREVIEW.pdf (application/pdf Object)

Hey, even wiki got it right when we are discussing a fetish! 

A cuckold fetishist is aware of the spouse's activity and derives sexual pleasure from it.[4] This knowledge and tolerance of the spouse's activities makes the person in such relationships a wittol, properly speaking. But among fetishists the pose of reluctance—the victimization of the cuckold—is a major element of the kink so the more familiar word is used. In the fetish cuckolding subculture, the female is typically sexually dominant, while the man takes on a submissive role, only becoming involved with her or her lover when she permits it—sometimes remaining altogether celibate. Other arrangements are certainly possible, however, as wives can have husbands who take female lovers with their full knowledge.[5] The wife who enjoys cuckolding her husband is sometimes referred to as a hotwife, a cuckquean,[6] or (rarely) cuckoldress.[7]
This reminds Me of the old discussions that we've had around these boards about the difference between real world slavery and how the term is applied in the world of alternative lifestyles.


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(in reply to xssve)
Profile   Post #: 142
RE: A serious discussion about cuckolding - 3/8/2012 9:13:16 PM   
JeffBC


Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline 		~chuckles~

OK, I'm having a moment of sympathy with xssve here. Perhaps I'm wrong, but this looks like the same thing I've done a zillion times. Fundamentally, however, it is wrong to bring definitions from the science world into discussions about BDSM. I used to get tripped up over this all the time regarding "dominance" and "submission".

In this example here, I'm seeing xssve bringing in some concepts and theories from veterinary medicine and evolutionary biology and trying to use them to explain a kink. In my experience, this never works nor should it. They aren't the same concepts even if they share the same words and the fact that the science definitions came first doesn't mean they are any more "true" in this context.

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Profile   Post #: 143
RE: A serious discussion about cuckolding - 3/9/2012 1:59:29 AM   
johnmasters


Posts: 2
Joined: 3/8/2012
Status: offline 		Having had the experience of being a cuckold, in the sense of being the husband of an unfaithful wife, I've read a lot on the subject and talked to people about it including professionals. A lot of the scientific research focuses on birds and mamals and seeks to relate the observations to human behaviour. Apart from ethical considerations, there are problems in conducting research of this type directly with humans, typically the secretive behaviour of the "unfaithful wife", that amke finding a truly representative sample difficult. Many researchers turn to literature instead and often quote Shakespeare and James Joyce as authorities.

For myself I think there are two main reasons why a woman would cuckold her husband - biological and soscial.

There has been some discussion already about the biolgical aspect. The female finding a male who will nurture her offspring and then seeking out a mate who will provide her with offspring with the best survival characteristics. Research suggests that the males will compete for the survival of their sperm in two ways. First the cuckold will seek to add his sperm to that of the other male in an attempt to out-competehim. Second once the female has been shown to be unfaithful the cuckold will have sex with the woman as often as possible to reduce or eliminate the likelihood of her straying again. Looking back, I know that after I'd gotten over the initial shock of being a cuckold and after she had gotten over the shock of being let down by her boyfriend my wife and I had sex every day for over 12 months at my instigation. She entered into the menopause at a very early age, she was still in her 40's, and my desire to copulate with her on a daily basis ended when I knew she was safe (though I'm sure I didn't think of it in those terms at the time).

The social aspect is far more anecdotal but relates to power and security. Essentially men and women look to powerful males for protection and as part of the bargain the poweful males get the pick of the females and the weaker males accept this in return for being protected too (a fine example of this in film is "The Warlord" staring Charlton Heston). There is no doubt this goes on today even in our more sophisticated society, one has only got to consider the number of married women who have sex with their bosses (there's been at least one at every place I've worked). I also believe that some males may choose to offer their wives to more powerful men as a sign of submission. As, in so many other aspects of our lives, we tend to ritualise our social interactions and the cuckold lifestyle or "kink" is a way of meeting/fulfilling this need some men have to submit to more dominant males. And when husband and wife apologise to the bull for using him they are being disingenuous (unintentionally, no doubt) because, in other circumstances, they'd expect the bull to protect them from agressors.



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RE: A serious discussion about cuckolding - 3/9/2012 5:41:39 AM   
Rochsub2009


Posts: 2536
Status: offline 		Wow! Thanks LadyPact!

Those definitions are great. I should have provided something similar at the beginning of this thread. That way, everybody would have been using the terminology in the same way.

In particular, I like the fact that the definitions repeatedly stress that the female dominant is in charge, and the submissive male has no control over her activities. This is the point that I was trying to communicate to LadyHib. She kept saying that the guy was in charge, and that it was a male focused kink. But by definition, what she was describing isn't cuckolding. Your definitions just made the point that I was unsuccessful in communicating in multiple posts.

Thanks again. Good post!

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Profile   Post #: 145
RE: A serious discussion about cuckolding - 3/9/2012 5:55:22 AM   
Rochsub2009


Posts: 2536
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: johnmasters
I've read a lot on the subject and talked to people about it including professionals. A lot of the scientific research focuses on birds and mamals and seeks to relate the observations to human behaviour. Apart from ethical considerations, there are problems in conducting research of this type directly with humans, typically the secretive behaviour of the "unfaithful wife", that amke finding a truly representative sample difficult. Many researchers turn to literature instead and often quote Shakespeare and James Joyce as authorities.


I agree with you. I have never felt comfortable with studies that use observations from the animal kingdom to explain human behavior. Animals act on instinct. Humans use reason to decide their behaviors. That reasoning can often cause us to do things for purposes other than survival, finding food, and finding a mate, which tend to be primary motivations in the animal kingdom.


quote:


For myself I think there are two main reasons why a woman would cuckold her husband - biological and social.

There has been some discussion already about the biolgical aspect. The female finding a male who will nurture her offspring and then seeking out a mate who will provide her with offspring with the best survival characteristics.

The social aspect is far more anecdotal but relates to power and security. Essentially men and women look to powerful males for protection and as part of the bargain the poweful males get the pick of the females and the weaker males accept this in return for being protected too.


In a purely biological sense, I can agree with this assessment. But when taken in a BDSM context, I would tend to disagree.

In BDSM, most of the sexual interactions that I've seen have involved "safe sex". Thus, no sperm was actually transferred. The cuckoldress is typically not trying to get pregnant, and she usually takes precautions to make sure that she doesn't.

Also, in many BDSM cuckolding situations, the bull only services the cuckoldress in a sexual fashion. He takes no responsibility for protecting her household.

So while I agree with you in a general sense, I think that in the BDSM sense, the rationale is different. I think that the cuckoldress does it because it is a demonstration of her power and authority, and also because she thinks it's hawt.

But once again, I understand that most of what you were describing was pertaining to a true cheating wife, and not a dominant partner in a BDSM relationship.

< Message edited by Rochsub2009 -- 3/9/2012 5:57:04 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 146
RE: A serious discussion about cuckolding - 3/9/2012 6:34:31 AM   
xssve


Posts: 3589
Joined: 10/10/2009
Status: offline
quote:

Your most recent "third link down" post is a duplicate of the one that is to the New York Times editorial page for a book review. (Which, without logging in there, is not accessible.) That's four shots at the opportunity to show support of either of the statements highlighted above.

At least we have something in common. I'm not so good with links, either. Be patient.
You bitched about not being able to link to the NYT article, so I gave you the google link - I wasn't trying to prove anything to you, I was just linking to interesting looking articles while searching for a link to a recent study about couples satisfaction in various arrangements, some of those studies are mentioned in that article.

Congratulations, you can cut and paste from an amateur dictionary defining everything from a BDSM POV. When did this become a discussion with you, and when did I become required to support any statements? It's a no brainier, if the behaviors are identical, they're the same strategy, regardless of the social labels you use, but you have to call it something, and there are only so many choices here - gee, why not the closest extant behavioral analog?

You can call it whatever the hell you want argue over semantics all day, all that matters in terms of reproductive strategies are the behaviors, not the labels.

And if you've got a woman, her cuck and a Bull, monogamy it ain't, not from an external, objective standpoint of reproductive strategies: one woman, many men, it's polyandry, period. There are no other choices.

You, personally, can spin it any other fucking way you want, "monogamy with benefits" or whatever, I don't give a shit, but it isn't social monogamy either, which implies it cuts both ways, another subset of poly - gamy.


Here:

quote:

Suffix

-gamy

1. Used to form nouns describing forms of marriage

2. (biology) used to form nouns describing forms of fertilization, pollination or reproduction
Wiktionary: -gamy

You could argue it's monogamy or social monogamy for one of the individuals perspective, depending, given that selection is confined to the genome level, the actual reproducing pair bond/s are all that matters, the group functions as a vehicle, not a breeding pair, but overall, in terms of the group vehicle, it's poly-something.

Biologically, there is a finite group of labels that apply, and it has to be one of those, the process of elimination applies.

< Message edited by xssve -- 3/9/2012 6:48:51 AM >

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RE: A serious discussion about cuckolding - 3/9/2012 6:47:50 AM   
PeonForHer


Posts: 19612
Joined: 9/27/2008
Status: offline 		FR

So that we've got all bases covered on this matter of definitions:

Noun: cuckoo

1. A man who is a stupid incompetent fool
2. Any of numerous European and North American birds having pointed wings and a long tail

Verb: cuckoo
1. Repeat monotonously, like a cuckoo repeats his call

Adjective: cuckoo
1. Informal or slang term meaning insane or very stupid



Noun: polythene
1. A lightweight thermoplastic; used especially in packaging and insulation

[WordWeb.info]

[WordWeb.info]

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(in reply to xssve)
Profile   Post #: 148
RE: A serious discussion about cuckolding - 3/9/2012 6:50:29 AM   
xssve


Posts: 3589
Joined: 10/10/2009
Status: offline 		Don't ask if you don't want to hear the answer.

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Profile   Post #: 149
RE: A serious discussion about cuckolding - 3/9/2012 6:51:17 AM   
PeonForHer


Posts: 19612
Joined: 9/27/2008
Status: offline 		NM

Who cares?

< Message edited by PeonForHer -- 3/9/2012 6:52:05 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 150
RE: A serious discussion about cuckolding - 3/9/2012 6:54:45 AM   
Rochsub2009


Posts: 2536
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer


Noun: cuckoo

1. A man who is a stupid incompetent fool



And some would probably argue that this is the most appropriate definition provided thus far.

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Profile   Post #: 151
RE: A serious discussion about cuckolding - 3/9/2012 6:56:55 AM   
Rochsub2009


Posts: 2536
Status: offline 		Here's an article by a sex therapist on cuckolding. It's rather long, but since we're on the topic, I thought it was worth sharing.

Cuckolding article

(in reply to Rochsub2009)
Profile   Post #: 152
RE: A serious discussion about cuckolding - 3/9/2012 7:09:26 AM   
xssve


Posts: 3589
Joined: 10/10/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

NM

Who cares?

LP apparently.

And to save time in this ridiculous threadjack, in order to repudiate the above she'll have to reinvent the wheel and offer some alternative taxonomic schema acceptable to the entire scientific community.

Good luck with that. Somehow I suspect I can expect nothing but ad hominem and snark - evasion basically, so I'll leave you to it.

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RE: A serious discussion about cuckolding - 3/9/2012 7:14:27 AM   
Rochsub2009


Posts: 2536
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveluci

I am a woman and this is one of my all time fav-o-rite fantasies. I think all the things you mention above are part of the excitement of it for me. I love the idea of Master being with whomever He wants, however He wants, whenever He wants and including me if and only if He desires - to the degree that He desires. There is nothing about it that doesn't excite me to the core.


Luci,
I apologize. I forgot to respond to your post.

It's good to hear the perspective of a submissive woman who finds this to be hot. Earlier, LunaM and RaspberryLemon both shared the exact opposite point of view. So I think it helps the conversation to hear women admit that they fantasize about being a cuckquean (a female cuckold).

Thanks for sharing. I'm sure there are lots of women who find it to be just as hot as you do.

(in reply to slaveluci)
Profile   Post #: 154
RE: A serious discussion about cuckolding - 3/9/2012 7:18:00 AM   
xssve


Posts: 3589
Joined: 10/10/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rochsub2009

Here's an article by a sex therapist on cuckolding. It's rather long, but since we're on the topic, I thought it was worth sharing.

Cuckolding article

It's bullshit unfortunately, nature is no t so one way, and there are plenty of monogamous women married to polygamous husbands, if anything, the male has much less to lose by taking multiple partners, as male reproductive costs are negligible, the woman stands to gain much more from monogamy, all the research to date reinforces this.

It doesn't mean all women are monogamous, women stand to gain from genetic diversity in their offspring in terms of physical traits and inherited immunities as opposed to putting all her eggs in one basket, but all women are pretty much in the same boat when it comes to the need to subsidize their reproductive costs, it's just a hard fact of human reproduction, Nine months of gestation and Five to Seven years before the child is even marginally capable of functioning independently, you can't get around that, it's a primary motivating factor in K strategies: if polyandry works for you, then it works for you, have at it.

< Message edited by xssve -- 3/9/2012 7:22:27 AM >

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RE: A serious discussion about cuckolding - 3/9/2012 7:37:03 AM   
Rochsub2009


Posts: 2536
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: xssve

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rochsub2009

Here's an article by a sex therapist on cuckolding. It's rather long, but since we're on the topic, I thought it was worth sharing.

Cuckolding article


It's bullshit unfortunately,


You're probably right. I don't agree with quite a bit of what she wrote. But my objective is to have as many different perspectives brought to the table as possible. I am not trying to support any particular view. So I thought that her perspective was worth sharing (even though I don't agree with much of it).

Were there any parts that you did agree with?

(in reply to xssve)
Profile   Post #: 156
RE: A serious discussion about cuckolding - 3/9/2012 7:52:37 AM   
xssve


Posts: 3589
Joined: 10/10/2009
Status: offline 		i.e., if all that is true, it still doesn't make the converse untrue, polygyny poses particular problems in populations of any size, but it has a proven track record of reproductive success, as does polyandry - even if it's gotten short shrift politically and economically, as a reproductive strategy, it works as well, maybe better, but it's not because women have a greater sex drive, it's because of a greater flexibility in potential strategies among women, erotic plasticity - theoretically anyway.

Paternity assurances are more important to men, women know who the mother of their child is, unless there's some mix up in the baby ward, it's beyond dispute, thus men (and mammalian males in general) tend to be motivated to establish breeding monopolies over one or more individual females (monogamy, polygyny), while playing the field themselves (opportunistic breeding), women are motivated to find a caregiver (monogamy), but also to obtain a diverse range of genetic traits and inherited immunities in their children (polyandry).

Nothing is either/or here, it's all about trade off's, opportunity cost: heterosexual marriage is a compromise, not the only compromise, but it has a proven track record, even if it's less than perfect, it's just the simplest and most immediately functional compromise, it always works in a pinch, it's socially just in terms of male:female ratios, the only problem is that the diversity problem is still there, it doesn't go away, and all sorts of informal behaviors are generated to satisfy it: swinging, cheating, serial and social monogamy, etc., etc., some can strengthen the pair bond, others weaken it.

Polyandry, in fact, is probably the better strategy overall, of all the strategies discussed: it assures both genetic diversity and potentially enhanced subsidization of reproductive costs, without generating a population of angry, marginalized males like polygyny does - polygyny is associated with often profound levels of internecine violence, so while a proven reproductive strategy, it's a generally poor social strategy leading to an overall decline in group fitness - it's suits a pastoral economy where the requirements for large grazing territories makes small, isolated social clumps adaptive, it works a lot less well in diverse, densely packed, and economically interdependent urban and semi-urban populations

A strategy that satisfies diversity and subsidization of reproductive costs, and results in male social bonding rather than disenfranchisement and violence really would be the best of both worlds, you don't have to resort to bullshit to make that argument, I just don't see it catching on in a big way if you guys are the models - and you are.

< Message edited by xssve -- 3/9/2012 7:55:12 AM >

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RE: A serious discussion about cuckolding - 3/9/2012 7:53:46 AM   
ChatteParfaitt


Posts: 6562
Joined: 3/22/2011
From: The t'aint of the Midwest -- Indiana
Status: offline 		Using FR:

I've been following this thread all week, but have just now had the time to respond. Wonderful discussion, so ty Rochsub.

Much of what I wanted to say has already been said, but I did want to take the opportunity to give my opinion on this often misunderstood kink:

If the male sub is begging his femdomme to cuck him, it's not a cuckolding situation. (Not sure what it is, other than some form of humiliation.)

It is only cuckolding when the femdomme chooses the activity, and the male sub *has no say in it,* and must either submit or sever the relationship.

Since this discussion started, I have given some thought as to why so many male subs "want" to be cucked right out of the gate, so to speak, I can only blame their use (misuse?) of BDSM oriented porn.







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RE: A serious discussion about cuckolding - 3/9/2012 8:26:53 AM   
xssve


Posts: 3589
Joined: 10/10/2009
Status: offline
quote:

Were there any parts that you did agree with?
Well, as stated above, there is a very definite motivation of the part of women to achieve both genetic diversity and and optimal range of traits, and inherited immunities in their offspring, it doesn't mean women are polygamous, men are monogamous, as the article seems to imply, there are trade offs for both.

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Sex+and+affection+in+heterosexual+and+homosexual+couples%3A+an...-a0154757386

This article sheds some light on the subject: briefly, in a given dyad, men tend to value physical affection more than fidelity, i.e., they are more likely to forgive a lapse of emotional fidelity in their mates if they can still get physical affection from her - women by contrast, are more likely to value emotional fidelity, and more likely to forgive physical infidelity as long as it doesn't threaten emotional fidelity, which goes back to women's motivations slanted more towards subsidizing their reproductive costs, and men's motivations slanted more towards breeding with anybody, anywhere, under any circumstances.

So a poly group is basically Two more interconnected dyads, or breeding pairs, the cuck and the Cuckstress are a dyad, the Cuckstress and the Bull are a dyad, and the Two dyads have to work together as a triad - in order to do that, each individual is going to want to have their needs met if they're going to cooperate, the rest is figuring out what those are, and satisfying them to maintain a cooperative group vehicle - the above study offers the best current data on what patterns might apply there on a statistical scale - female dominant cuck is one possible polyandric arrangement, I myself see a small but stable groups of female submissives, toys, pets, fuckpigs, gangbang and cumsluts, breeders, etc., that essentially seeking male dominant polyandric dynamics - i.e., offering to exchange unlimited and unqualified physical affection in return for diverse reproductive opportunities and presumably, subsidization of reproductive costs - so the article you linked to to is misleading mainly in that it presents a one-way view of things, rather than a number of diverse variations on a particular theme, which is what we see in praxis.



< Message edited by xssve -- 3/9/2012 8:29:11 AM >

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RE: A serious discussion about cuckolding - 3/9/2012 8:37:03 AM   
SailingBum


Posts: 3225
Joined: 12/10/2007
From: Sailin the stormy sea
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rochsub2009


Wow, I completely disagree with this. Sure, the porn-inspired version of cuckolding that is so often discussed on these boards may be phallocentric, but that's why I wanted to have this discussion. I wanted to talk about a version of cuckolding that is initiated by the female, and where the female maintains the power.

IMO, if the guy begs to be cuckolded, then that doesn't fit the definition of a cuck. I think these are the situations that you're referring to.

Forget all of the ridiculous "Will somebody please cuckold me?" threads that you've read on CollarMe. Those are exactly the threads that give people the wrong impression of cuckolding.



WOW according to you there is only ONE WAY to cluck. Keep telling yourself that....

BadOne

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