RE: A serious discussion about cuckolding

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slaveluci -> RE: A serious discussion about cuckolding (3/9/2012 8:47:42 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SailingBum WOW according to you there is only ONE WAY to cluck. Keep telling yourself that.... BadOne Here's ANOTHER way to CLUCK[8D] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UhEQ1E8XPp4 luci

GreedyTop -> RE: A serious discussion about cuckolding (3/9/2012 8:57:36 AM)
This has been a really enlightening thread, Roch. Thanks :)

xssve -> RE: A serious discussion about cuckolding (3/9/2012 8:58:41 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt Using FR: I've been following this thread all week, but have just now had the time to respond. Wonderful discussion, so ty Rochsub. Much of what I wanted to say has already been said, but I did want to take the opportunity to give my opinion on this often misunderstood kink: If the male sub is begging his femdomme to cuck him, it's not a cuckolding situation. (Not sure what it is, other than some form of humiliation.) It is only cuckolding when the femdomme chooses the activity, and the male sub has no say in it, and must either submit or sever the relationship. Since this discussion started, I have given some thought as to why so many male subs "want" to be cucked right out of the gate, so to speak, I can only blame their use (misuse?) of BDSM oriented porn. The common factor here in both the variations described above, male dominated of female dominated, is the submissive's requirement for social reassurances that they will get their needs met - in the case of a male submissive, primarily physical affection or some satisfying analog, in the females case, sperm - to put it bluntly - but including the associated externalities: food, shelter, Male Parental Involvement (MPI), resource and social subsidies for her reproductive costs. In both cases, this may be due to the fact that women more closely associate sex with reproduction: every act of sex is a potentially reproductive act, and it's possible that women are more aware of this on even a subconscious level for men, which is why I say a submissive female wants "sperm" rather than cock (even if cock is not bad either) - in reproductive terms, cock is just a delivery system for sperm, whereas men want the pussy, not the egg, or in broader symbolic terms, physical affection and reassurance - and in a lot of cases, what they really want is the pussy, not the egg, since the fertilized egg entails responsibilities they would just as soon avoid. A quirk of gender, and hardly news, but it explains a lot of human socio-sexual behavior, and, as always with statistical models of human behavior, it's a curve with no shortage of statistically meaningful exceptions, i.e., an average, which is not quite the same things as a "norm". In this case, it makes polyandry more attractive to men if they can share some of their portion of the reproductive subsidies by sharing the affection - the rest sort of depends on where they stand on the issue in terms of paternity vs. pussy. e.g., you got a guy willing to provide resources in exchange for pussy, and a guy willing to donate sperm in exchange for outsourcing some of his share of reproductive costs, you got a thing. The irony is, that if no actual reproduction is taking place, genetic recombination is moot, it's still a reproductive strategy and is going to be subject to the reproductive politics of biology, even if it's just a behavioral abstraction of it, your endocrine system doesn't read the dictionary.

xssve -> RE: A serious discussion about cuckolding (3/9/2012 9:31:03 AM)
And the submissive's needs are critical to the extent that even in some poly triads, the submissive is topping from the bottom. In polygynic triads, where at least one of the females is dominant, i.e., in these terms, controls the reproductive opportunities - the submissive will be predictably restive - and that is in two cases I've heard described in triads like this, a dominant couple with a female sub, and a female dominant with both a male and a female sub, the female sub was not happy, as the female dominant allowed the male to only engage in anal sex with her - the female sub was getting cock, but not sperm, and as I say, in both cases the female sub was attempting to extract herself from an unsatisfying situation. As I say, the endocrins system employs it's own particular reasoning, and is, at best, only marginally and peripherally subject to abstract argument. The CuckQuean is predictably, a relative rarity, initiating a polygynic triad in which she plays a supporting role analogous to that of the male sub in a cuckolding polyandric triad - the success of that may depend on her being able to control the breeding opportunities via some amount of topping from the bottom, but it's uncommon enough that it's hard to make too many generalizations. The most common form of this would be the sort of one-way social monogamy where the man stays married to her and supports her and the kids while he runs around, which is more like making lemonade from lemons than a mutually satisfying sexual dynamic, Jackie Kennedy or Elin Nordegren for example, cheating basically - still technically polygyny, but non-consensual (or quasi-consensual at best) and less than mutually satisfying - a less optimal outcome.

Rochsub2009 -> RE: A serious discussion about cuckolding (3/9/2012 11:29:47 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SailingBum quote: ORIGINAL: Rochsub2009 Wow, I completely disagree with this. Sure, the porn-inspired version of cuckolding that is so often discussed on these boards may be phallocentric, but that's why I wanted to have this discussion. I wanted to talk about a version of cuckolding that is initiated by the female, and where the female maintains the power. IMO, if the guy begs to be cuckolded, then that doesn't fit the definition of a cuck. I think these are the situations that you're referring to. Forget all of the ridiculous "Will somebody please cuckold me?" threads that you've read on CollarMe. Those are exactly the threads that give people the wrong impression of cuckolding. WOW according to you there is only ONE WAY to cluck. Keep telling yourself that.... Wrong! I have no problem with guys who want to be cuckolded. I really don't care what form it takes. My issue is more one of terminology than actual practice. If a guy is seeking any random woman to "cuckold" him, then I don't think that it actually fits the definition of "cuckold". In order for it to actually be a true cuckolding situation, there needs to be a true relationship involved. If there is no relationship, then there is no emotional attachment, and no infidelity. IMO, if a guy wants to find any random woman to "cuckold him", then he's actually seeking a voyeur scene, and not a cuckold relationship. How can he be her "cuckold" when there is no actually relationship between the two of them? It doesn't fit the definition of cuckolding (which LadyPact was kind enough to provide). That doesn't mean that there is anything wrong with wanting to watch a random woman get fucked by a BBC (which tends to be the stereotypical cuck fantasy). But it doesn't qualify as cuckolding. Heck, if there is no relationship and all he's doing is watching two relative strangers fuck, that's called "live porn", not "cuckolding". I definitely see how watching two people have sex can be exciting. It's the fundamental principle behind the entire porn industry. But that doesn't make it cuckolding. So I'm not prescribing "one true way" to cuckold. Rather, I'm pointing out that certain activities don't fit the definition, even though they are valid and highly desired activities. See my point, SailingBum?

seekingOwnertoo -> RE: A serious discussion about cuckolding (3/9/2012 11:48:27 AM)
quote: Guys: How did/does being cuckolded make you feel? Been reading this thread, and many of the responses are interesting. [:)] So I think I will try to restrict myself to this one little question. My own feelings ... [;)] First, what I am about to post happened in my early twenties. Second, at that time, I had no idea of what D/s, BDSM or Fem Domme were, except what I had seen in Penthouse on occasion. Okay, it may shock some to learn that I was actually legally married for a couple years in my early 20's, [:D], and madly in love. She was highly intelligent, well educated, charming and had a body that men tripped over their tongues for. [:D] well my tastes haven't changed much, have they??? [;)] We were living together and I asked her to marry me. The one condition she had, was that she could keep her sexual freedom ... Needless to say, I was so in love ... I agreed. (Point one: It all depends on how I feel about the Lady.) When she did go out on dates, I was emotionally devastated while she was gone. Especially when I spent the entire night alone. When she did get home the next day though, the emotional and physical rewards I recieved in return were ... indescribably delicious! (Point two: It is a huge roller coaster of emotions. Communication and understanding are paramount continual concerns in maintaining a relationship. Reciprocity, too!) That said, the relationship ended when she tried to become polyamorous. What triggered my reaction was her calling and telling me to meet her for dinner ... then she stood me up. (Point three: Trust and integrity must be maintained.) Of course, at that age, I had no trouble finding another lover ... myself. [;)] All is well that ends well. [;)] So the points again, from my viewpoint: 1. It all depends on how I feel about the Lady. 2. It is a huge roller coaster of emotions. Communication and understanding are paramount continual concerns in maintaining a relationship. 3. Trust and integrity must be maintained. 4. And I will add a fourth: Mental and emotional balance stability in all parties is important. PS: For me, there is no physical stimulus at all.

PeonForHer -> RE: A serious discussion about cuckolding (3/9/2012 11:55:35 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: seekingOwnertoo Of course, at that age, I had no trouble finding another lover ... myself. [;)] All is well that ends well. [;)] Good man!

Rochsub2009 -> RE: A serious discussion about cuckolding (3/9/2012 12:04:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: seekingOwnertoo So the points again, from my viewpoint: 1. It all depends on how I feel about the Lady. 2. It is a huge roller coaster of emotions. Communication and understanding are paramount continual concerns in maintaining a relationship. 3. Trust and integrity must be maintained. 4. And I will add a fourth: Mental and emotional balance stability in all parties is important. Wow! Great post, seekingOwnertoo! There are so many parts of this that I can relate to. Sounds like you also had a woman that you were deeply in love with demand to maintain her sexual freedom. I remember when that happened to me, I was shocked, but I was even more shocked at my own agreement to her terms. At the time, losing her seemed like a much worse thing than losing her fidelity. Also, like you, I found myself tormented when she was gone, but very aroused when she returned home. It seemed like we always had the hottest sex after her "dates". Our experiences and reactions to cuckolding have really been quite similar. It's always comforting to know that others react to a given situation the same way that we do. In this instance, you seem like a kindred spirit. Thanks for sharing your experience. That was very enjoyable to read, and I can definitely relate.

LadyPact -> RE: A serious discussion about cuckolding (3/9/2012 1:38:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: xssve You bitched about not being able to link to the NYT article, so I gave you the google link - I wasn't trying to prove anything to you, I was just linking to interesting looking articles while searching for a link to a recent study about couples satisfaction in various arrangements, some of those studies are mentioned in that article. Excuse Me, but I sincerely don't know who you think you are, but if you want to discuss anything with Me, you can be courteous and polite. Your link didn't open the article, so if you wanted to discuss that, it might be helpful if the article happens to open. That's the point of giving a link. For other people to have the information. You'll have to forgive the fact that we're actually on a kink site and the man who started the thread actually wanted to discuss the kink associated with the topic. Please, do go right ahead and discuss biology and derail the thread.

Rochsub2009 -> RE: A serious discussion about cuckolding (3/9/2012 2:01:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GreedyTop This has been a really enlightening thread, Roch. Thanks :) You're welcome. I'm glad to see that people are learning some new things, or being exposed to ideas that they hadn't considered before. That was really my goal in starting this thread. Every time cuckolding gets discussed on CM, it's usually because some guy is begging random females to cuckold him. I wanted to show people that it's a more complex kink than that, and that it can be quite enjoyable for the right people. I also wanted to show that it can be a dangerous element to add to a relationship. It all depends on the individuals involved. I do apologize that some people felt that I was trying to push cuckolding on them. That wasn't my intent. Frankly, I really don't care what other people try. I assumed that if people didn't have an interest in the topic, they would simply ignore the thread. But obviously that wasn't the case. I also regret that some people thought I was trying to push a specific way of doing cuckolding. That also wasn't my goal. There are a million ways to do cuckolding. The only "true way" is the way that works for you within the confines of your relationship. I've tried to acknowledge everyone's views on the topic, whether they were pro or con. Frankly, I thought that LunaM and RaspberryLemon made great contributions to the thread, and they were both strongly against cuckolding. On the other side of the coin, SlaveLuci is a female sub who is very much in favor of cuckolding. Her contribution was just as enlightening as Luna & Raspberry's. LadyPact is a Domme who enjoys cuckolding, and LadyHibiscus is a Domme who has absolutely no interest in it. So both ends of that spectrum were covered. JohnMasters and seekingOwnertoo both shared very good perspectives of what it's like to be a male who has been cuckolded. And xssve shared more of a scientific and biological perspective on the topic. Frankly, I couldn't have asked for a more diverse discussion. I'm glad that so many people chimed in. I think that anyone who has questions about cuckolding, or who might be considering adding cuckolding to their BDSM activities, can look at this thread and gain insight on the topic. That all that I could have hoped for.

LadyPact -> RE: A serious discussion about cuckolding (3/9/2012 2:01:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt Using FR: I've been following this thread all week, but have just now had the time to respond. Wonderful discussion, so ty Rochsub. Much of what I wanted to say has already been said, but I did want to take the opportunity to give my opinion on this often misunderstood kink: If the male sub is begging his femdomme to cuck him, it's not a cuckolding situation. (Not sure what it is, other than some form of humiliation.) It is only cuckolding when the femdomme chooses the activity, and the male sub has no say in it, and must either submit or sever the relationship. Since this discussion started, I have given some thought as to why so many male subs "want" to be cucked right out of the gate, so to speak, I can only blame their use (misuse?) of BDSM oriented porn. I think porn is part of it. There are very fine lines about this kink and it can get very confusing because they look like the same thing on the surface, but underneath, they are stemming from different things. What you say above is exactly why I am not cut out for a dynamic where the male is a cuck with at least 95% of the males who advertise looking for that dynamic. It's not as much fun for Me when the guy wants it so much already to the degree that most of them do. I'm even bad with the definitions, Myself, because the key that gets used so often is "humiliation". Well, since I look at it from the perspective that the kink is for Me, I tend not to angle it from his reaction, so I tend to look at it as emotional sadism, because, let's face it; If he's humiliated, I'm the one causing the pain, right? It's the distress that I'm getting off on. That's why it is so different to Me than poly. To run a poly dynamic, the idea is to create harmony. The last thing you want is jealousy or a fear in one of the participants. When somebody is your cuck, the idea is to make them experience that, at least to some degree. Some people can pull that off just based on the emotional state of the sub involved. While I can see that, it doesn't quite hit the mark for Me for My enjoyment. I want it based on the emotional attachment that he has for Me. That makes it more fun for Me if it's based on more than his own insecurities that exist whether I'm part of the equation or not.

ChatteParfaitt -> RE: A serious discussion about cuckolding (3/9/2012 2:11:23 PM)
Oh gosh that is such a great point, that the whole agenda behind cucking someone is to make them unstable, insecure, out of harmony, if you will. While the whole agenda of a poly arrangement is to maintain harmony and stability. Cucking someone is not being poly to me. It's having an open relationship that the other person has no say in, and often does not get to reciprocate in any way, in other words, they have to remain monogamous. I think there are some male doms into this kink, but females tend to not stand for it. And so I think some at least try to pass it off as poly. But if you're main goal is not security, it's not poly (to me).

Rochsub2009 -> RE: A serious discussion about cuckolding (3/9/2012 2:15:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyPact That's why it is so different to Me than poly. To run a poly dynamic, the idea is to create harmony. The last thing you want is jealousy or a fear in one of the participants. When somebody is your cuck, the idea is to make them experience that, at least to some degree. Very true. That's a point that hadn't been mentioned yet. It's a subtle distinction, but a very important one.

PeonForHer -> RE: A serious discussion about cuckolding (3/9/2012 2:29:29 PM)
FR Just a passing thought: I think the mere idea of a partner french kissing another man would have the required effect on me. Hmm. Odd. Does anybody else feel the same way? To date, I have been pretty possessive. Also, nobody, so far as I've known, has 'two-timed' me. Another area in which I'm a bit of an innocent, to add to the already rich array of them.

Rochsub2009 -> RE: A serious discussion about cuckolding (3/9/2012 2:32:52 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyPact I'm even bad with the definitions, Myself, because the key that gets used so often is "humiliation". Well, since I look at it from the perspective that the kink is for Me, I tend not to angle it from his reaction, so I tend to look at it as emotional sadism, because, let's face it; If he's humiliated, I'm the one causing the pain, right? It's the distress that I'm getting off on. And that speaks to the diversity of this particular kink. Some males prefer the humiliation of knowing that his wife/girlfriend/Domme is with a better endowed male who can please her sexually better than the cuck can. Other males prefer the voyeuristic aspect, as they watch their partner having sex with an outsider. Some men enjoy the jealousy and nervousness of not knowing what's going to happen when she goes on her "date", yet being forced to help her pick outfits and get dressed for that date. Personally, I don't see it as a voyeuristic or humiliating act, but rather as a form of submission that forces me to place her needs/wants ahead of my own. Accepting her sexual freedom is tangible evidence of the power imbalance in the relationship. Suffering through torment when she's out on a "date", but then being rewarded by her happiness (and the hot sex that follows) provides in interesting mix of pleasure and pain that creates an internal conflict that I don't completely understand myself, but I know that I enjoy. And you, being the sadist that you are, enjoy the emotional sadism. How fitting. [;)] Those are completely different perspectives on the same kink. Each person enjoys a different element of the cuckolding experience. Yet they're all equally valid.

Rochsub2009 -> RE: A serious discussion about cuckolding (3/9/2012 2:36:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer I think the mere idea of a partner french kissing another man would have the required effect on me. But would it be an enjoyable effect, or a bad one? Does the thought arouse you, or would you want to punch him in the face? Or would your reaction be a combination of the two? Be honest.

PeonForHer -> RE: A serious discussion about cuckolding (3/9/2012 3:54:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Rochsub2009 But would it be an enjoyable effect, or a bad one? Does the thought arouse you, or would you want to punch him in the face? Or would your reaction be a combination of the two? Be honest. I feel pretty certain a combination of the two.

xssve -> RE: A serious discussion about cuckolding (3/9/2012 4:39:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyPact quote: ORIGINAL: xssve You bitched about not being able to link to the NYT article, so I gave you the google link - I wasn't trying to prove anything to you, I was just linking to interesting looking articles while searching for a link to a recent study about couples satisfaction in various arrangements, some of those studies are mentioned in that article. Excuse Me, but I sincerely don't know who you think you are, but if you want to discuss anything with Me, you can be courteous and polite. Your link didn't open the article, so if you wanted to discuss that, it might be helpful if the article happens to open. That's the point of giving a link. For other people to have the information. You'll have to forgive the fact that we're actually on a kink site and the man who started the thread actually wanted to discuss the kink associated with the topic. Please, do go right ahead and discuss biology and derail the thread. But I don't want to discuss anything with you, so kindly have gratifying sex with yourself, I was discussing something else with Rochsub, trying to find a link to studies about couples satisfaction that indicated cuck couples tended to rate highly in satisfaction, and I was just linking to articles that mention such studies until I could find one of them, which I have not, yet. You complained about not being able to access the NYT article, so I gave you the google link that took me straight to the article, if you still can't link to it, I don't know what to tell you, other than it's a long - (which I mention because you complained the other one was a whole 4 pages long) but interesting article, dealing with Jealousy, love, unrequited love, and female infidelity. It linked from google for me, but now it doesn't, c'est la vie, but it was a review of The Dangerous Passion: Why Jealousy is as Necessary as Love and Sex, By David M. Buss. I cannot vouch for it's accuracy. Here's an excerpt: quote: To produce a single child, women bear the burdens and pleasures of nine months of pregnancy — an obligatory form of parental investment that men cannot share. Men, to produce the same child, need only devote a few hours, a few minutes, or even a few seconds. Wide is the gulf between men and women in the effort needed to bring forth new life. Over time, therefore, a strategy of casual mating proved to be more reproductively successful for men than for women. Men who succeeded in the arms of many women out-reproduced men who succeeded with fewer. An ancestral woman, in contrast, could have had sex with hundreds of partners in the course of a single year and still have produced only a single child. Unless a woman's regular partner proved to be infertile, additional sex partners did not translate into additional children. As a consequence, men evolved a more powerful craving for sex with a variety of women. This sex difference in desire creates an intriguing puzzle. Sexual encounters require two people. Mathematically, the number of heterosexual encounters must be identical for the sexes. Men cannot satisfy their lust for sex partners without willing women. Indeed, men's passion for multiple partners could never have evolved unless there were some women who shared that desire. Is casual sex a recent phenomenon, perhaps created by the widespread prevalence of birth control devices that liberated women from the previous risks of pregnancy? Or did ancestral women do it too? It goes on to explain various benefits women might obtain from infidelity, but that section starts with this: quote: One Sunday morning William burst into the living room and said, "Dad! Mom! I have some great news for you! I'm getting married to the most beautiful girl in town. She lives a block away and her name is Susan." After dinner, William's dad took him aside. "Son, I have to talk with you. Your mother and I have been married 30 years. She's a wonderful wife, but has never offered much excitement in the bedroom, so I used to fool around with women a lot. Susan is actually your half-sister, and I'm afraid you can't marry her." William was heartbroken. After eight months he eventually started dating again. A year later he came home and proudly announced, "Dianne said yes! We're getting married in June." Again, his father insisted on a private conversation and broke the sad news. "Dianne is your half-sister too, William. I'm awfully sorry about this." William was furious. He finally decided to go to his mother with the news. "Dad has done so much harm. I guess I'm never going to get married," he complained. "Every time I fall in love, Dad tells me the girl is my half-sister." His mother just shook her head. "Don't pay any attention to what he says, dear. He's not really your father." Lol.

LadyPact -> RE: A serious discussion about cuckolding (3/9/2012 5:45:44 PM)
See, that's actually so much better! I was thinking that it wouldn't open for Me because I can't log into the NYT site. At least now I have the exert to have some information about what you are trying to say. No, I wasn't complaining about the four pages of the other article. I was just letting you know that I read it and was attempting to find the connection that you were referring to, especially the prostitution comment. If anything, I see that as such an opposite side of the scale because I don't terribly see prostitution as a position of power, where the kink of cucking, for Me, is all about it. As for having sex with Myself, I'm not exactly in that position. LOL. I'll just give you My best on that one.

LadyPact -> RE: A serious discussion about cuckolding (3/9/2012 6:40:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt Oh gosh that is such a great point, that the whole agenda behind cucking someone is to make them unstable, insecure, out of harmony, if you will. While the whole agenda of a poly arrangement is to maintain harmony and stability. Cucking someone is not being poly to me. It's having an open relationship that the other person has no say in, and often does not get to reciprocate in any way, in other words, they have to remain monogamous. I think there are some male doms into this kink, but females tend to not stand for it. And so I think some at least try to pass it off as poly. But if you're main goal is not security, it's not poly (to me). I think you and I are seeing this in very much the same way. When it comes to poly, security is one factor. Honesty is another. For those who read the journal entry that I wrote to see the 'lighter' side of cuckolding, I specifically made sure that I was honest, but not especially forthright. I wanted to plant doubt. I wanted to plant suspicion. I didn't want the sub to be terribly happy about the fact that I was going 'out'. I tried to convey a loving dynamic, but one that had that margin of emotional distress. At the same time, I wanted him to be happy in his submission and service about him.

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