Trying to get an honest answer (Full Version)

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heartfeltsub -> Trying to get an honest answer (3/6/2012 10:14:48 AM)

I know what I am about to ask will be a touchy subject, but I am honestly trying to get an honest answer as to why it is such a touchy subject and as I want the opinion of both D types and s types, this seemed like the best place to post this. Why whenver anyone posts about a D type trying to get his s type to lose weight does it become a vitriolic free for all. I don't understand it. To me, my body is not me, it is what I carry me (who I really am as a person) around in and although I don't like it much if someone says that I need to lose weight (which I do and am doing) I don't see it as a slam against who I am as a person, but rather a commentary on what my body looks like. I don't know if this makes any sense. With the way that I view D/s or M/s asking an s type to lose weight would be part of what is allowed in the dynamic. So I am trying to figure out why any time that subject gets touched on fur seems to fly.

Thanks in advance for your replies. It would be nice if they were pleasant ones (smiling)

heartfelt



CRYPTICLXVI -> RE: Trying to get an honest answer (3/6/2012 10:26:46 AM)

Just a passing thought... your environment is an extension of who you are. A commentary if you will. How you dress, what you read, how you keep your home, what you place in your home, where you prefer to get your coffee, etc. All of these are aspects of yourself, how you view life, the world, your self.

The thought of how you care for your body, is an expression of how you care about your self and by extension, how you can care for another person.

I was told, that my lack of respect for my eating habits, my health, even my lack of regard for certain "details" of responsibility expressed how I could not keep another "safe" or to care for them. Though I understand this train of thought, let me give the caveat that it was presented as a rationalization within a context of más loca behavior...

That all being said, there is no point and no true input to the actual question, as this is not an element that I have directly dealt with... but I have noticed in my relationships, vanilla and not, that weight can definitely reflect the negative an individual is experiencing and that actually losing weight, not dieting but losing weight can be a reflection of a more positive sense of self.




peppermint -> RE: Trying to get an honest answer (3/6/2012 10:33:38 AM)

A healthy program for losing weight to get down to a healthy weight is great. However, asking a person who has a normal healthy weight to lose to the point of having a model like figure is not healthy. I personally cringe when I hear of a model who is 5'10" and weighs 125 pounds. There is also a small group of D types who want their submissives to gain weight to the point of being unhealthy and obese.

The key word in all this is healthy. I see nothing wrong with a D type requiring (unless it is a hard limit) a submissive to eat properly, exercise, and lose weight if the submissive has extra pounds to lose. I see nothing wrong with a D type asking a submissive to gain a few pounds if the submissive is way too thin according to body type. The goal should be to help the person become a healthy person.



kalikshama -> RE: Trying to get an honest answer about D mandated weight loss (3/6/2012 10:47:32 AM)

In the recent thread, the negative response seemed to be due to the s being already a healthy weight for her height, and healthy in general.

Like me - I needed to drop 10# before I joined the USAF. During my enlistment, the USAF raised the weight standards so the weight loss wouldn't have been necessary had I joined a few years later. I lost another 20 pounds in 6 weeks during boot camp, which set up a lifetime of yoyoing.

My recruiter gave me a few silly diets such as those focusing on bananas. I'd never dieted before and was clueless about healthy weight loss.




IrishMist -> RE: Trying to get an honest answer (3/6/2012 11:04:33 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: heartfeltsub

I know what I am about to ask will be a touchy subject, but I am honestly trying to get an honest answer as to why it is such a touchy subject and as I want the opinion of both D types and s types, this seemed like the best place to post this. Why whenver anyone posts about a D type trying to get his s type to lose weight does it become a vitriolic free for all. I don't understand it. To me, my body is not me, it is what I carry me (who I really am as a person) around in and although I don't like it much if someone says that I need to lose weight (which I do and am doing) I don't see it as a slam against who I am as a person, but rather a commentary on what my body looks like. I don't know if this makes any sense. With the way that I view D/s or M/s asking an s type to lose weight would be part of what is allowed in the dynamic. So I am trying to figure out why any time that subject gets touched on fur seems to fly.

Thanks in advance for your replies. It would be nice if they were pleasant ones (smiling)

heartfelt

Honestly...it causes such a furor because no one wants to be told that they are less than 'perfect'. (and please, hold up on the standard 'no one is perfect' statements...that is not what I am refering to )

I am going to use me as an example. I am 5'9 and I weigh about 130lbs, but, I carry a good muscle tone which keeps me from looking sickly. As far as I am concerned, I really could stand to gain about 5 or 10 pounds...BUT...I also know that I look good. If another person was to say to me 'you need to lose/gain weight', my response would not be pretty because, while I KNOW that I can look better with some more weight...I DO NOT want someone else telling me that I don't 'look good' just the way I am. Being told that kind of makes a person unconfident in themselves; and when that happens, we tend to get riled up and insulted.

That's my thinking on it.



LaTigresse -> RE: Trying to get an honest answer (3/6/2012 11:05:43 AM)

Heartfelt, I think it is because weight is such a sensitive subject in our society.

One of the worst things you can tell a person, woman especially it seems, is that they are fat. You can say they are thin and it's acceptable. But say they are fat and the planet gets knocked off it's axis. To suggest that a person should/must/needs to, lose weight is tantamount to saying they are a horrible worthless shell of a person. In most people's minds.

Because of our current societal perception of fat people, any reference towards an individual being fat, is considered one of the most insulting things you can say or think.

You don't read/hear a person say they are fat. They cover it in less scary terms like big and beautiful, fluffy, curvy, etc.

People don't even what to admit responsibility for being fat. They cover it is less realistic excuses like medication, genetics, etc etc etc.

So, you put all of that together, you have the answer.



OsideGirl -> RE: Trying to get an honest answer about D mandated weight loss (3/6/2012 11:08:20 AM)

I think there are a number of issues.

1) If some one has never lost a substantial amount of weight, they really have no idea how to do it. They're not in a position of giving advice at that point.

2) Why? Is it because you want the submissive to healthy? Or because you want a hotter girlfriend?

3) I love you, now change.

Let me also add that there are some seriously overweight Dominant men......and I don't see posts about submissives asking their D's to lose weight.



heartfeltsub -> RE: Trying to get an honest answer (3/6/2012 11:08:33 AM)

Thanks for all the replies. What you said makes sense Irish Mist. There does seem to be a difference on how it is siad, but you are right no one wants to feel like they are being insulted. As for the last time this issue was raised, yes in that incident the person probably didn't need to lose weight to be healthy, but in a lot of the times I have seen this issue raised that is not the case. Again sometimes it is how the issue is raised which seems to cause the ire.



heartfeltsub -> RE: Trying to get an honest answer (3/6/2012 11:15:39 AM)

LT,

Thank you for the reply. I think I concur to a degree with what you have said. I can see where there is sometimes a huge hidden message that is heard that may not always be meant. I guess part of my question is how it relates to the whole D/s dynamic.

Thank you again,
heartfelt



heartfeltsub -> RE: Trying to get an honest answer about D mandated weight loss (3/6/2012 11:19:17 AM)

Thank you Oside for your reply. May I ask what is wrong with wanting a hotter girl? That is part of what I don't understand. If the person really does need to lose weight, what is wrong with wanting someone that you find more sexually attractive. And with the D/s dynamic, although a Dominant may need to lose weight, doesn't the dynamic mean that the D can give direction to the s type that doesn't flow the other way.

Thank you again for your reply.

heartfelt



LaTigresse -> RE: Trying to get an honest answer (3/6/2012 11:29:56 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: heartfeltsub

LT,

Thank you for the reply. I think I concur to a degree with what you have said. I can see where there is sometimes a huge hidden message that is heard that may not always be meant. I guess part of my question is how it relates to the whole D/s dynamic.

Thank you again,
heartfelt


Heartfelt,

In my mind, for most people the stuff I wrote previously creates such a dramatically deep and negative knee jerk reaction that, unlike a lot of issues, it's just not acceptable in ANY relationship.......even a D/s or M/s relationship. Even when it should be.

We can discuss extreme play and other sorts of body mods with less extreme emotion.



kalikshama -> RE: Trying to get an honest answer about D mandated weight loss (3/6/2012 11:30:25 AM)

Just as my Dad, a smoker, had no credibility telling me not to smoke when I was 16, so an overweight D would have no credibility ordering me to lose weight yet not addressing his own issues.

Now if he were to say, "We are going to make these lifestyle changes together..."



OsideGirl -> RE: Trying to get an honest answer about D mandated weight loss (3/6/2012 11:33:25 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: heartfeltsub
If the person really does need to lose weight, what is wrong with wanting someone that you find more sexually attractive.
If you don't find them attractive why are you with them? You should be with someone for who they are....now, not for who they possibly could be in the future.

quote:

And with the D/s dynamic, although a Dominant may need to lose weight, doesn't the dynamic mean that the D can give direction to the s type that doesn't flow the other way.
I understand that. But, my point was that you don't see posts saying that a male dominant would be more attractive if he lost weight. These posts are almost always aimed at the women both D and s.





CRYPTICLXVI -> RE: Trying to get an honest answer about D mandated weight loss (3/6/2012 11:39:31 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama

Just as my Dad, a smoker, had no credibility telling me not to smoke when I was 16, so an overweight D would have no credibility ordering me to lose weight yet not addressing his own issues.

Now if he were to say, "We are going to make these lifestyle changes together..."


OT...but I would like to comment on this. I have smoked consistently for decades, and I had my first cigarette at age 9. I have a hateful dark spot for those who still hold that cigarettes are a "bad habit". I have "tried" to quit several times and at this point I accept that smoking is a part of me, unless I make some decisions for it not to be. I have an issue when it comes back to w/d...as I stopped drinking twenty plus years ago and the w/d symptoms were quite intense.

Anyway, I talked to my kids about addiction, not cigarettes per se. I talked to them about not wanting a substance controlling them, that they needed to control themselves. How the fact that I hated having any addiction and that they needed to control their own lives.

One sometimes smokes cigars, one smokes nothing...

Back to your weight fete.

Thank you.



MrsT301 -> RE: Trying to get an honest answer about D mandated weight loss (3/6/2012 12:01:32 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama
Now if he were to say, "We are going to make these lifestyle changes together..."


I agree with this. It wouldn't really be fair for one person to tell the other to change and meanwhile they continue ordering takeout every night and buying ice cream and not excercising or whatever. Someone who is trying to lose weight would need lots of support. Eating healthier together, excercising together, sounds like it would be fine.



LoreBook -> RE: Trying to get an honest answer (3/6/2012 12:10:19 PM)

WARNING
The following post may contain strongly expressed opinions. The author recognises that these are her opinions, based on her definitions and worldview and understands that they may not be applicable to anybody else. It is not the wish or intention of the author to imply in any way that her opinio0ns, definitions, desired dynamic, relationship style, or world view is in any way universally applicable, or that they constitute the only possible way of approaching the issue.

Because while it is very exciting to say "You own me body and soul", its very difficult to actually carry it out, and the s-type who really means it is rare indeed. Assuming that the submissives who post here are a representative sample, the majority of them, as can be seen from their responses here and on other threads, only pay lip service to the concept of submission. They will obey as long as it feeds into their kink, and unless humiliation really is a big part of that kink, being told they aren't just wonderful the way they are will be crossing that invisible line between game-playing and real life, and their submission ends at that line.

If a sub has accepted a D-type's authority and claims to be owned or to have surrendered themselves, then their weight is no longer their concern. It, like everything else, is the domain of the D-type. He/she has been given authority and is free to exercise it in whatever manner they wish. Otherwise its just a farce.

So, unless there is a specific agreement that weight loss (or gain) is a forbidden area, then the s-type should simply do as he/she is told regardless of how difficult or unpleasant it may be. If he/she does not wish to obey, then he/she is free to leave the relationship.


The preceding statement represents the views and opinions of the author and the author alone, and should in no way be considered an attempt by the author to define or determine anything for anybody but herself.



LaTigresse -> RE: Trying to get an honest answer about D mandated weight loss (3/6/2012 12:10:59 PM)

I think the basis of what the OP is getting at is that we find a lot of other unequal things acceptable in our UNequal power exchange relationships. In fact, many aspects are nearly used as 'one true way' or bragging rights to the idea of 'I am a better slave than xxx because...' Or I have a better slave because'. But bright up the weight issue and all hell breaks loose. Which doesn't make sense when we are in fact, talking about a relationship based upon an uneven power dynamic.

As an example. Why is it more acceptable when someone says the slave has to work and do most of the housework? Or why is it more acceptable when the dominant person is 100% in control of what gets watched on the television, or where they eat out, how a slave wears their hair, or any other number of things?

After all, it IS a relationship based upon an UNfair dynamic.



LoreBook -> RE: Trying to get an honest answer about D mandated weight loss (3/6/2012 12:15:59 PM)

WARNING
The following post may contain strongly expressed opinions. The author recognises that these are her opinions, based on her definitions and worldview and understands that they may not be applicable to anybody else. It is not the wish or intention of the author to imply in any way that her opinions, definitions, desired dynamic, relationship style, or world view is in any way universally applicable, or that they constitute the only possible way of approaching the issue.
quote:

It wouldn't really be fair
If you want fair, stick to a vanilla relationship. A lack of fairness is fundamental to a D/s relationship.

The preceding statement represents the views and opinions of the author and the author alone, and should in no way be considered an attempt by the author to define or determine anything for anybody but herself.



DesFIP -> RE: Trying to get an honest answer about D mandated weight loss (3/6/2012 12:43:35 PM)

The reason you get so many negative reactions is that usually when this is done, the results are negative.

First off, there are hundreds of diet programs out there, all of which have worked for some people, but not worked for others. So along comes a guy who works in IT or as a mechanic or editor and he's magically an expert on weight loss? He's clueless, and the results are not pretty.

Secondly, when men tell women "you need to lose weight", what women hear is "you're ugly and I'm not attracted to you any more". Which is not the kind of thing that impels a woman to give up comfort food. You know folks, guys have lied to me and hurt my feelings, but chocolate never has.

Third, a huge percentage of women suffer from eating disorders. See point one, with clueless man. Telling someone with a history of anorexia to lose weight is like telling someone who survived lung cancer to start smoking again.

Fourth, men lose weight twice as fast as women and don't understand why women aren't like them. Friends, him a physician, her a nurse-practitioner went on a diet one summer. New dog, both walked the dog two miles together twice a day, same diet. And they're medical personnel and know what they're doing presumably. He lost almost three times as much weight as her. Because women are hard wired to keep weight on in order to bring about a successful pregnancy. So  guy on as 2400 calorie diet would need to cut a woman down to 800 calories a day and have her exercise almost three times as much for her to lose the same amount of weight. Except she still wouldn't because her body goes into starvation mode, slowing the metabolism even more from then on. Set up for failure.

Smart dominants don't set subs up for failure. The ones who do, lose the trust and respect of their subs. Unless you can guarantee that what you're doing will work, you're better off not starting this because the outcome isn't likely to be positive.

What you do is say you both need to add more fruit and vegetables to your diet and more fiber. You both need to get out for a walk. You don't focus on inches or the scale or looks which just makes a woman more insecure and less trusting in you, just on being more healthy.





DesFIP -> RE: Trying to get an honest answer about D mandated weight loss (3/6/2012 12:50:55 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CRYPTICLXVI



OT...but I would like to comment on this. I have smoked consistently for decades, and I had my first cigarette at age 9.

Anyway, I talked to my kids about addiction, not cigarettes per se. I talked to them about not wanting a substance controlling them, that they needed to control themselves. How the fact that I hated having any addiction and that they needed to control their own lives.



Children of smokers are much more likely to smoke.

Nobody like withdrawal symptoms but there are medications that help nicotine addicts quit without going through withdrawal.

Telling your kids they shouldn't be addicts while you are using your drug of choice in front of them is hypocritical and ineffective. It's like telling them not to use drugs while you're shooting up heroin.

You want them to successfully fight the familiar tendency towards addiction, you need to model it yourself.

And yes, 20% of smokers find it easier to give up heroin than nicotine. Still not a reason to use. Or would you agree that a heroin addict who tried quitting a couple of times shouldn't bother trying to get clean again? No difference.



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