Arizona's "Show me your papers" law takes another hit

Arizona's "Show me your papers" law takes another hit (Full Version)

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Fightdirecto -> Arizona's "Show me your papers" law takes another hit (3/7/2012 5:06:22 AM)
Arizona: Day Labor Rule Blocked quote: A federal judge blocked the police in Arizona from enforcing a section of the state’s 2010 immigration enforcement law that prohibited people from blocking traffic when they seek or offer day labor services on streets. Judge Susan R. Bolton of District Court ruled Wednesday that groups seeking to overturn the law would probably prevail in their claim that the day labor rules violate the First Amendment. She rejected arguments by the state that the rules were needed for traffic safety and pointed out that the law says its purpose is to make attrition through enforcing the immigration policy of state and local government agencies. The ban was among provisions in the law that were allowed to take effect after a July 2010 decision by Judge Bolton halted enforcement of more controversial elements. The previously blocked portions include a requirement that the police, while enforcing other laws, question people’s immigration status if officers suspect they are in the country illegally. Striking Down a Bad Law, Piece by Piece quote: States and localities have tried for decades to write laws to throw day laborers off the corner and have repeatedly run up against the Constitution... Judge Bolton rightly noted that the first section of the Arizona law declares “attrition through enforcement” — the mass expulsion of undocumented immigrants through wide-ranging crackdowns — to be the official policy of state and local government in Arizona. What does that have to do with traffic safety? Nothing, Judge Bolton pointed out, exposing Arizona’s unconstitutional law for what it is. I'm hoping the Arizona's "Achtung! Zeigen Sie mir Ihre Papiere, möglicherweise fremd Schwein!"* Law gets overturned, in part for selfish reasons. I've had to turn down several gigs in Arizona because the Musicians union has the state under boycott - and I won't knowingly cross a picket line. Plus I can't be sure that if I visit Arizona, some hick-town Barney Fife might assume I'm an illegal immigrant Irishman and refuse to accept my Massachusetts drivers license as proof of my American citizenship. (As a matter of principle, I refuse to carry my U.S. passport within the 50 U.S. states.) * "Achtung! Zeigen Sie mir Ihre Papiere, möglicherweise fremd Schwein!" is German for "Attention! Show me your papers, possibly alien pig!"

DesideriScuri -> RE: Arizona's "Show me your papers" law takes another hit (3/7/2012 5:58:06 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Fightdirecto Arizona: Day Labor Rule Blocked quote: A federal judge blocked the police in Arizona from enforcing a section of the state’s 2010 immigration enforcement law that prohibited people from blocking traffic when they seek or offer day labor services on streets. Judge Susan R. Bolton of District Court ruled Wednesday that groups seeking to overturn the law would probably prevail in their claim that the day labor rules violate the First Amendment. She rejected arguments by the state that the rules were needed for traffic safety and pointed out that the law says its purpose is to make attrition through enforcing the immigration policy of state and local government agencies. The ban was among provisions in the law that were allowed to take effect after a July 2010 decision by Judge Bolton halted enforcement of more controversial elements. The previously blocked portions include a requirement that the police, while enforcing other laws, question people’s immigration status if officers suspect they are in the country illegally. Striking Down a Bad Law, Piece by Piece quote: States and localities have tried for decades to write laws to throw day laborers off the corner and have repeatedly run up against the Constitution... Judge Bolton rightly noted that the first section of the Arizona law declares “attrition through enforcement” — the mass expulsion of undocumented immigrants through wide-ranging crackdowns — to be the official policy of state and local government in Arizona. What does that have to do with traffic safety? Nothing, Judge Bolton pointed out, exposing Arizona’s unconstitutional law for what it is. I'm hoping the Arizona's "Achtung! Zeigen Sie mir Ihre Papiere, möglicherweise fremd Schwein!"* Law gets overturned, in part for selfish reasons. I've had to turn down several gigs in Arizona because the Musicians union has the state under boycott - and I won't knowingly cross a picket line. Plus I can't be sure that if I visit Arizona, some hick-town Barney Fife might assume I'm an illegal immigrant Irishman and refuse to accept my Massachusetts drivers license as proof of my American citizenship. (As a matter of principle, I refuse to carry my U.S. passport within the 50 U.S. states.) * "Achtung! Zeigen Sie mir Ihre Papiere, möglicherweise fremd Schwein!" is German for "Attention! Show me your papers, possibly alien pig!" Why would you use German in your quote? What is it you're implying? As far as "papers" go, you do recall that Federal Immigration law states that legal immigrants carry their registration papers (ie. proof of legal status to be in the US) on their person at all times, right? Thus, your German comment needs to be leveled towards the Federal Government, not Arizona.

Owner59 -> RE: Arizona's "Show me your papers" law takes another hit (3/7/2012 8:02:16 AM)
Right right right...... AZ is "only enforcing" existing federal immigration laws.........[8\|]...We heard that one. Obviously,this is only wedge-issue politics......the president knew when he singled poor little zona for a spanking,that the cons would take the bait thinking they had a winning issue. Instead.....zona looks "German".....the cons look like bigots and cry-babies.....while the "laws" get struck down. Well played Mr President....

tj444 -> RE: Arizona's "Show me your papers" law takes another hit (3/7/2012 8:24:09 AM)
As far as looking "German" goes.. that goes for Obama and the Feds too.. Obama has deported more undocumented illegals in his first term, 3 years of it, than Bush did in his entire 8 years in office.. The average time to deport someone is 468 days, and the cost to detain (jail) someone thru the process is $166/day..

Owner59 -> RE: Arizona's "Show me your papers" law takes another hit (3/7/2012 8:30:52 AM)
I agree.....the Feds are doing THEIR jobs though. It would be just as illegal for the feds to be doing AZ law enforcement as it is for AZ to be doing federal law enforcement roles. I feel bad for the folks who get messed up (and/or their families)who get hurt or deported(by the feds) but that`s the law.

Fightdirecto -> RE: Arizona's "Show me your papers" law takes another hit (3/7/2012 8:32:19 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri As far as "papers" go, you do recall that Federal Immigration law states that legal immigrants carry their registration papers (ie. proof of legal status to be in the US) on their person at all times, right? Thus, your German comment needs to be leveled towards the Federal Government, not Arizona. My comment is leveled at Arizona because their law not only requires "that legal immigrants carry their registration papers (i.e. proof of legal status to be in the US) on their person at all times" - it also has been interpreted by individual Arizona law Enforcment officers to require ALL people to carry some kind of papers to prove they are legally allowed to be in the U.S. - even a person like myself who was born in th U.S. to two American citizens and can trace his family back to the Pilgrims of the Plymouth Colony of Massachusetts (my first ancestors came to Plymouth from England in 1621) - simply on the basis of some hick cop's decision of whether I looked American enough for him. It has often been said of me that I look Irish (and, BTW, I consider that a compliment) - and under the present Arizona law that is enough for any Arizona cop to detain me in jail until I can somehow prove that I am an American citizen to his or his superiors' satisfaction. A friend and fellow musician who was born in and still lives in Taos, New Mexico, whose great grandparents originally came from Mexico and became naturalized American citizens in 1912 (making him a third generation American citizen), spent 4 hours in a jail cell in the southern Arizona town of Amado (population: 340), near the border with Mexico shortly after the law was signed by the Arizona Governor. He was on his way to play at a wedding reception and had been stopped for allegedly failing to stop at the town's only "Stop" sign. The Barney Fife who stopped him took him to the jail and locked him up since my friend looks Mexican and didn't have any immigrant registration papers or Green Card on him. All he had was a valid New Mexico driver’s license and his Social Security card, but Supercop told him that a lot of illegal’s carried fake Social Security cards and fake driver’s licenses and he wouldn't accept that as proof of citizenship. 4 hours later, after a computer check proved he was who he said he was and that he was an American citizen; he was released - with a citation for running the "Stop" sign. The delay caused him to miss the job. He drove back home to New Mexico - and has never gone back to Arizona again (he paid the ticket by mail). If you were stopped by a cop right now - could you prove that you are an American? Remember, the burden of proof, under the Arizona law, is on you to prove you're legal - not on the arresting officer to prove you’re illegal. You look German or possibly Russian to me from your picture - prove to me you're not.

tj444 -> RE: Arizona's "Show me your papers" law takes another hit (3/7/2012 9:11:15 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Fightdirecto quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri As far as "papers" go, you do recall that Federal Immigration law states that legal immigrants carry their registration papers (ie. proof of legal status to be in the US) on their person at all times, right? Thus, your German comment needs to be leveled towards the Federal Government, not Arizona. My comment is leveled at Arizona because their law not only requires "that legal immigrants carry their registration papers (i.e. proof of legal status to be in the US) on their person at all times" - it also has been interpreted by individual Arizona law Enforcment officers to require ALL people to carry some kind of papers to prove they are legally allowed to be in the U.S. - even a person like myself who was born in th U.S. to two American citizens and can trace his family back to the Pilgrims of the Plymouth Colony of Massachusetts (my first ancestors came to Plymouth from England in 1621) - simply on the basis of some hick cop's decision of whether I looked American enough for him. It has often been said of me that I look Irish (and, BTW, I consider that a compliment) - and under the present Arizona law that is enough for any Arizona cop to detain me in jail until I can somehow prove that I am an American citizen to his or his superiors' satisfaction. A friend and fellow musician who was born in and still lives in Taos, New Mexico, whose great grandparents originally came from Mexico and became naturalized American citizens in 1912 (making him a third generation American citizen), spent 4 hours in a jail cell in the southern Arizona town of Amado (population: 340), near the border with Mexico shortly after the law was signed by the Arizona Governor. He was on his way to play at a wedding reception and had been stopped for allegedly failing to stop at the town's only "Stop" sign. The Barney Fife who stopped him took him to the jail and locked him up since my friend looks Mexican and didn't have any immigrant registration papers or Green Card on him. All he had was a valid New Mexico driver’s license and his Social Security card, but Supercop told him that a lot of illegal’s carried fake Social Security cards and fake driver’s licenses and he wouldn't accept that as proof of citizenship. 4 hours later, after a computer check proved he was who he said he was and that he was an American citizen; he was released - with a citation for running the "Stop" sign. The delay caused him to miss the job. He drove back home to New Mexico - and has never gone back to Arizona again (he paid the ticket by mail). If you were stopped by a cop right now - could you prove that you are an American? Remember, the burden of proof, under the Arizona law, is on you to prove you're legal - not on the arresting officer to prove you’re illegal. You look German or possibly Russian to me from your picture - prove to me you're not. There have been several cases of legal Americans actually being deported to other countries.. it may not be a large percent but it happens way too often and heaven help you if you tell one of these cops/nazis that you are a legal American and they dont believe you..

Zonie63 -> RE: Arizona's "Show me your papers" law takes another hit (3/7/2012 10:58:25 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Fightdirecto If you were stopped by a cop right now - could you prove that you are an American? Remember, the burden of proof, under the Arizona law, is on you to prove you're legal - not on the arresting officer to prove you’re illegal. Actually, the law in question hasn't really been implemented yet. The Supreme Court will hear arguments on April 25, so everything is pretty much on hold for the time being. Most of the key provisions were already struck down by lower courts anyway. I have a U.S. Passport card that I carry with me, so I carry proof of citizenship at all times. Still, every time I'm stopped by a cop, I have to carry my "papers" with me all the time anyway. First thing they ask for is "license, registration, and proof of insurance," and this happens in every state. They can even search my vehicle if they wish, and even if I refuse to consent to a search, they'll bring out the dogs and search anyway. Not that I have anything to hide, but still, it can be a real pain in the butt and a waste of time. They also have those Border Patrol checkpoints where you can be subject to search. It appears that the Arizona law could get struck down by the Supreme Court, but I don't know if that'll solve the deeper problem of cops going around and asking people for their "papers, please." Our government's communications systems and surveillance tools are far superior and more advanced, too.

DesideriScuri -> RE: Arizona's "Show me your papers" law takes another hit (3/7/2012 12:16:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Fightdirecto quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri As far as "papers" go, you do recall that Federal Immigration law states that legal immigrants carry their registration papers (ie. proof of legal status to be in the US) on their person at all times, right? Thus, your German comment needs to be leveled towards the Federal Government, not Arizona. My comment is leveled at Arizona because their law not only requires "that legal immigrants carry their registration papers (i.e. proof of legal status to be in the US) on their person at all times" - it also has been interpreted by individual Arizona law Enforcment officers to require ALL people to carry some kind of papers to prove they are legally allowed to be in the U.S. - even a person like myself who was born in th U.S. to two American citizens and can trace his family back to the Pilgrims of the Plymouth Colony of Massachusetts (my first ancestors came to Plymouth from England in 1621) - simply on the basis of some hick cop's decision of whether I looked American enough for him. It has often been said of me that I look Irish (and, BTW, I consider that a compliment) - and under the present Arizona law that is enough for any Arizona cop to detain me in jail until I can somehow prove that I am an American citizen to his or his superiors' satisfaction. A friend and fellow musician who was born in and still lives in Taos, New Mexico, whose great grandparents originally came from Mexico and became naturalized American citizens in 1912 (making him a third generation American citizen), spent 4 hours in a jail cell in the southern Arizona town of Amado (population: 340), near the border with Mexico shortly after the law was signed by the Arizona Governor. He was on his way to play at a wedding reception and had been stopped for allegedly failing to stop at the town's only "Stop" sign. The Barney Fife who stopped him took him to the jail and locked him up since my friend looks Mexican and didn't have any immigrant registration papers or Green Card on him. All he had was a valid New Mexico driver’s license and his Social Security card, but Supercop told him that a lot of illegal’s carried fake Social Security cards and fake driver’s licenses and he wouldn't accept that as proof of citizenship. 4 hours later, after a computer check proved he was who he said he was and that he was an American citizen; he was released - with a citation for running the "Stop" sign. The delay caused him to miss the job. He drove back home to New Mexico - and has never gone back to Arizona again (he paid the ticket by mail). If you were stopped by a cop right now - could you prove that you are an American? Remember, the burden of proof, under the Arizona law, is on you to prove you're legal - not on the arresting officer to prove you’re illegal. You look German or possibly Russian to me from your picture - prove to me you're not. Interestingly enough, I do look more like my 1/4 German heritage than my 3/4 Italian heritage. Born and raised in the US. My proof? How 'bout my Driver's License? Arizona knows that in Ohio, you have to be a legal inhabitant to get a Driver's License. That isn't the case in every state, but it is in the majority. So, if you come from one of those states that requires it, you carry proof of legal residence, unless you don't carry your driver's license with you when you're driving. New Mexico, however, is one of only 3 states in the Union that allow illegal immigrants to get Driver's Licenses. So, your friend having a NM DL doesn't cut it. Why the SS (how odd is that abbreviation, considering the circumstances?) card didn't work is beyond me. If that is "acceptable" proof under AZ law, then that officer was in the wrong. http://www.ice.gov/news/library/factsheets/287g.htm Signing a Memorandum of Agreement (MOA) with ICE under Section 287(g), state and local police officers can enforce Federal Immigration Laws. If you follow the link above, and scroll about halfway down, you'll see a listing of who has MOA's with ICE, allowing the officers to enforce Federal Immigration Law. In actuality, the AZ law only made one little change to their current law. Under their "old" statute, officers making a legal contact (that is, stopping someone for some primary offense; the immigration status offense could only be secondary) were allowed to ask for documentation for any person they felt was in the country illegally. Under their "new" statute, officers making a legal contact (that is, stopping someone for some primary offense; the immigration status offense could only be secondary) were required to ask for documentation for any person they felt was in the country illegally. Did you catch the difference? Apparently, no one seemed to mind when officers were allowed to ask, but making it a requirement (and only to those they had a reasonable suspicion were in the country illegally) is where the line gets drawn. Here's the thing. If this gets repealed/struck down, they go back to the "old" way in which police officers were allowed to ask for proof of legal status for any person they were making a legal contact with that they had reasonable suspicion was in the country illegally. The part that is brought up in your article, though, is about the day laborers who, apparently, will line the streets where people will stop and pick them up to work for the day. The vehicles stopping can inhibit traffic, which the AZ statute would make illegal. If you stopped to pick up day laborers but didn't inhibit traffic, there is no infraction. In Ohio (where I am), it became law that you had to have your seat belt buckled if you were in the front seat (driver or passenger). But, it was a secondary infraction, meaning they couldn't pull you over for it. They had to have pulled you over for some other infraction before being legally being allowed to ticket you. Then, it was changed to a primary infraction, meaning they could pull you over simply because you didn't have your seat belt buckled. They even made it a primary infraction if the front passenger wasn't buckled, and the driver would be ticketed (not the unbuckled passenger). The Arizona Immigration check can only be a secondary event, not a primary. Regardless of what was being said by the opposers (it wasn't only Democrats), officers could not just walk up to anyone on the street and ask for papers.

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