Tennessee's proposed new anti-gay legislation (Full Version)

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kalikshama -> Tennessee's proposed new anti-gay legislation (3/7/2012 7:34:47 AM)

In a new 'fireside chat", George Takei calmly shreds Tennessee lawmakers for the anti-gay legislation they're pushing.

- First, he takes on Stacey Campfield and his "Don't Say Gay" bill,

- followed by Rep. John Ragan and his bill that protects bullies of LGBT kids behind a veil of religious freedom,

- and finally, Rep. Richard Floyd, who threatened to "stomp a mud hole" through any transgender person coming near his family. [He sponsored a bill that would fine transgender people $50 for using bathrooms and dressing rooms.]

Watch the video: George Takei Calmly Eviscerates Anti-Gay Tennessee Lawmakers in New 'Fireside Chat'




dcnovice -> RE: Tennessee's proposed new anti-gay legislation (3/7/2012 11:13:55 PM)

I love George Takei! (Though I was a little taken aback to discover that I've been pronouncing his name wrong for decades.)




Moonhead -> RE: Tennessee's proposed new anti-gay legislation (3/8/2012 5:07:55 AM)

And that fact alone makes the gaybashing morons look like an even bigger bunch of shits, doesn't it?
"That ****** Takaei! He ain't a real man like Rush or Ted Nugent!"




PeonForHer -> RE: Tennessee's proposed new anti-gay legislation (3/8/2012 5:52:32 AM)

quote:

e


Blimey, I had no idea that Lt. Sulu had moved on so much from his Enterprise days. Good man!




PeonForHer -> RE: Tennessee's proposed new anti-gay legislation (3/8/2012 5:56:17 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

(Though I was a little taken aback to discover that I've been pronouncing his name wrong for decades.)


Me too. Though he also pronounces 'proceeds' as 'pro-CEEDs'.




TrekkieLP -> RE: Tennessee's proposed new anti-gay legislation (3/8/2012 6:49:30 AM)

Actually, lately, he's been big in promoting things to remind people about our nation's internment camps (where he spent several years, as a child).

I subscribe to his Facebook page. He gets, and posts, a lot of humorous pictures and things.




kalikshama -> RE: Tennessee's proposed new anti-gay legislation (3/8/2012 7:30:17 AM)

M is a subscriber as well.




DownrightEvil -> RE: Tennessee's proposed new anti-gay legislation (3/8/2012 9:43:52 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama

In a new 'fireside chat", George Takei calmly shreds Tennessee lawmakers for the anti-gay legislation they're pushing.

- First, he takes on Stacey Campfield and his "Don't Say Gay" bill,

- followed by Rep. John Ragan and his bill that protects bullies of LGBT kids behind a veil of religious freedom,

- and finally, Rep. Richard Floyd, who threatened to "stomp a mud hole" through any transgender person coming near his family. [He sponsored a bill that would fine transgender people $50 for using bathrooms and dressing rooms.]

Watch the video: George Takei Calmly Eviscerates Anti-Gay Tennessee Lawmakers in New 'Fireside Chat'



I don't have the full text of the bill in front of me at the moment, but according to thinkprogress.org the offending text of the bill is as follows:

quote:

“Creating a hostile educational environment” shall not be construed to include discomfort and unpleasantness that can accompany the expression of a viewpoint or belief that is unpopular, not shared by other students, or not shared by teachers or school officials.

The policy shall not be construed or interpreted to infringe upon the First Amendment rights of students and shall not prohibit their expression of religious, philosophical, or political views; provided, that such expression does not include a threat of physical harm to a student or damage to a student’s property."


Although I will confess that I don't have the full text of the bill in front of me and despite the offensive views of various lawmakers that Mr. Kakei takes on in the video, are you folks seriously saying that the actual text is somehow dangerous or offensive? If we were to go back in time a few years, just long enough that pro-LGBT would have been the viewpoints that would have been the cause of "... unpleasantness that can accompany the expression of a viewpoint or belief that is unpopular...", would it still be language that shouldn't be included? What if we fast forward a few years and the unthinkable happens and religious conservatives rule the day in the educational system, would that language still be problematic for those that are decrying it now?

Arguing that unpopular opinions should not be permitted in an educational setting seems to me not only undermining part of the educational system should be doing, but setting a very dangerous precedent for the future.





Edwynn -> RE: Tennessee's proposed new anti-gay legislation (3/9/2012 1:33:13 AM)


Just how do you have it that a 'precedent' is being set by continuation of whatever current policy on the matter?

Those wanting to change away from the current status are the aspiring precedent setters, for those who understand the term properly.

"Unpopular opinions" is quite the broad stroke there. Racial superiority is an unpopular opinion. Various expressions of institutional or cultural misogyny would probably be an unpopular opinion. Unpopular opinions are a dime a dozen, but most forced social settings (such as a school classroom) have a certain purpose in mind that prevents any and every expression of 'unpopular opinion' from otherwise derailing that purpose. There is an already established precedent of not being allowed to yell "fire!" in a crowded theatre regarding the first amendment.

There is nothing in the current situation in the Tennessee or any other school system that prevents or disallows any and every unpopular opinion whatsoever. It is a matter of discretion on the part of the school and finally of the teacher. Disruption to the class or to the purpose at hand has historically been the limiting factor in the matter of whatever expressed opinions are allowed into it.

This proposed new law is nothing more than an aggression of the religionist agenda to impose upon the schools by the usual underhanded means, just as with the 'intelligent design' canard. In that instance, refraining from use of the term "God" was their cloak of self-imagined innocence in support of their fatuous assertion that it wasn't about religion, but rather 'just another explanation.'

If you want to talk about precedent, read the words of the section of the law you posted and tell us that an in-class proclamation from a student that "Jimmy is a fagot and he's going to hell" which the teacher under this law would be disallowed from preventing is not the actual precedent setting in question here.






DaddySatyr -> RE: Tennessee's proposed new anti-gay legislation (3/9/2012 2:07:26 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

Blimey, I had no idea that Lt. Capt. Sulu (as of Star Trek VI:The Undiscovered Country) had moved on so much from his Enterprise days. Good man!



Anyway, to the law ...

based just upon this snippet:


quote:



“Creating a hostile educational environment” shall not be construed to include discomfort and unpleasantness that can accompany the expression of a viewpoint or belief that is unpopular, not shared by other students, or not shared by teachers or school officials.

The policy shall not be construed or interpreted to infringe upon the First Amendment rights of students and shall not prohibit their expression of religious, philosophical, or political views; provided, that such expression does not include a threat of physical harm to a student or damage to a student’s property."



I think I have to agree with the interpretation that this seems to be trying to allow more freedom of expression without being sanctioned in some way. I think it promotes minority opinion in the classroom.

I wonder, though, if this is the kind of learning we want for younger students. I completely agree that in the teen years, students will be starting to think for themselves and expressing different (possibly minority) opinions but, elementary school kids can be very mean in how they treat their classmates.

This is a tough choice. I have no issue with that little snippet and I think it's a good idea, depending upon the age of the students we're talking about. I'm not sure that I'm as firm in my support when it comes to some of the younger students, though.



Peace and comfort,



Michael




kalikshama -> RE: Tennessee's proposed new anti-gay legislation (3/9/2012 8:32:55 AM)

I don't care how carefully the bill is worded. If someone with these views is sponsoring it, I'm against it.

Stacey Campfield, Tennessee Senator Behind 'Don't Say Gay' Bill, On Bullying, AIDS And Homosexual 'Glorification'

In an often belligerent and sarcastic tone, GOP State Senator Stacey Campfield, the man who spearheaded Tennessee's "Don't Say Gay" bill -- which would ban discussion in schools of "sexual orientation other than heterosexuality"-- lashed out at arguments against his bill by comparing homosexuality to bestiality and making what public health officials would characterize as recklessly false assertions about AIDS, in addition to other controversial claims, while appearing on my radio program on SiriusXM OutQ.

You can listen to the full Stacey Campfield interview here.

On bullying and suicides by gay teens, including two teens in Tennessee in recent months:

"That bullying thing is the biggest lark out there."

"There are sexually confused children who could be pushed into a lifestyle that I don’t think is appropriate with them and it's not for the norm for society, and they don't know how they can get back from that. I think a lot of times these young teens and young children, they find it very hard on themselves and unfortunately some of them commit suicide."

On why only heterosexuality should be discussed in schools:

"I just think there are situations where some kids maybe sexually unsecure [sic] in themselves or sexually confused and don't necessarily know clearly what direction they are. If someone, a person of influence, says maybe you're gay, maybe you should explore those things -- maybe the child, who is young and impressionable, says maybe I am gay."

"[Homosexuals] do not naturally reproduce. It has not been proven that it is nature. It happens in nature, but so does beastiality That does not make it right or something we should be teaching in school."

On what he called the "glorification" of homosexuality in the media:

"Homosexuals represent about 2 to 3 percent of the population yet you look at television and plays and theaters, it's 50 percent of the theaters, probably more than that, 50 percent of the theaters based on something about homosexuality."

On AIDS:

"Most people realize that AIDS came from the homosexual community -- it was one guy screwing a monkey, if I recall correctly, and then having sex with men. It was an airline pilot, if I recall."

"My understanding is that it is virtually -- not completely, but virtually -- impossible to contract AIDS through heterosexual sex...very rarely [transmitted]."

"What's the average lifespan of a homosexual? it's very short. Google it yourself."

According the esteemed Canadian infectious disease specialist Jacques Pepin, in his groundbreaking book The Origin of AIDS, DNA evidence now available has shown that the first known case of simian-to-human transmission of HIV occurred in Africa in the 1930s when a hunter killed and chopped up a monkey for food. The monkey’s blood infected an open cut. (There is no evidence of monkey to human sexual transmission). HIV then was transmitted among humans for decades in Africa largely via unprotected heterosexual vaginal sex, which, contrary to Campfield's claims, the CDC and all public health experts warn is a high risk activity. Today, around the globe, the majority of people with HIV are heterosexual and are infected via heterosexual sex.

The "short lifespan" meme about gay men comes from the claim of far-right, discredited researcher Paul Cameron, which was debunked back in the 1990s. Most recently North Carolina Senator James Forrester made the same claims -- that gay men die younger -- in an interview on my radio program in defending the antigay marriage amendment he put on the ballot. (He died a few weeks after the interview.)




Moonhead -> RE: Tennessee's proposed new anti-gay legislation (3/9/2012 8:39:34 AM)

I'd be interested to know who William Burroughs died younger than, given that he outlived all of his (much younger) peers...




Marc2b -> RE: Tennessee's proposed new anti-gay legislation (3/9/2012 12:18:08 PM)

quote:

“Creating a hostile educational environment” shall not be construed to include discomfort and unpleasantness that can accompany the expression of a viewpoint or belief that is unpopular, not shared by other students, or not shared by teachers or school officials.

The policy shall not be construed or interpreted to infringe upon the First Amendment rights of students and shall not prohibit their expression of religious, philosophical, or political views; provided, that such expression does not include a threat of physical harm to a student or damage to a student’s property."


Emphasis mine.

The only problem I see with this is that, in addition to "threat of physical harm or damage to a student's property," it should include or with intent to cause emotional harm or distress (or something to that effect).

Edwynn's example of a student proclaiming that "Jimmy is a fagot and he's going to hell," would thus not be protected but, in a classroom discussion on sexuality, a student's opinion that "homosexuality is morally wrong," would be protected.

Bullying is evil and I am all in favor of dealing harshly with it. I am perplexed that we as a society will tolerate behavior in our children that in the adult world would result in an arrest. I realize that part of it is the notion that "They're children and are still learning," but I see no reason why they shouldn't learn that society will not tolerate deliberate cruelty. That is the distinction that must be carefully made.





Edwynn -> RE: Tennessee's proposed new anti-gay legislation (3/9/2012 12:39:19 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b
I am perplexed that we as a society will tolerate behavior in our children that in the adult world would result in an arrest.


Or at the least, would get one fired from most jobs.


quote:

I realize that part of it is the notion that "They're children and are still learning," but I see no reason why they shouldn't learn that society will not tolerate deliberate cruelty. That is the distinction that must be carefully made.


Best thing said in the whole thread. Thank you.






Marc2b -> RE: Tennessee's proposed new anti-gay legislation (3/9/2012 1:56:13 PM)

quote:

Thank you.


You're welcome.




kalikshama -> RE: Tennessee's proposed new anti-gay legislation (3/14/2012 7:11:48 AM)

[image]http://cdn.front.moveon.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/gay-familiy-full-480x306.jpg[/image]




kdsub -> RE: Tennessee's proposed new anti-gay legislation (3/14/2012 7:29:23 AM)

You're looking at this all wrong...below is the section of the bill in question...

(2) Notwithstanding any other law to the contrary, no public elementary or
middle school shall provide any instruction or material that discusses sexual
orientation other than heterosexuality


Hell this is a step up really.... Just a few years ago there was no way any kind of sex, let alone heterosexual, would be discussed in elementary school. There is always a silver lining you just have to look for it.

Butch




Hillwilliam -> RE: Tennessee's proposed new anti-gay legislation (3/14/2012 7:45:22 AM)

You folks will be happy to know that according to this morning's paper, the bill is stalled. Even the Governor who is a moderate Republican isn't for it.

http://www.advocate.com/News/Daily_News/2012/03/13/Governor_Wishes_Dont_Say_Gay_Bill_Would_Disappear/




kalikshama -> RE: Tennessee's proposed new anti-gay legislation (3/14/2012 8:21:07 AM)

"It's no secret we've been part of talks there, and I've said from the very beginning I think there's better things for the legislature to occupy themselves with right now," Haslam told NewsChannel 5 in February. "We would love to see the legislature focus on some other issues right now."

So far, there are no signs that House Republicans are listening to Haslam.




Hillwilliam -> RE: Tennessee's proposed new anti-gay legislation (3/14/2012 11:29:26 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

You're looking at this all wrong...below is the section of the bill in question...

(2) Notwithstanding any other law to the contrary, no public elementary or
middle school shall provide any instruction or material that discusses sexual
orientation other than heterosexuality


Hell this is a step up really.... Just a few years ago there was no way any kind of sex, let alone heterosexual, would be discussed in elementary school. There is always a silver lining you just have to look for it.

Butch

That's untrue. In the 5th grade, we were given 'the talk' by the principal of the elementary school. boys one day while the girls watched some film in class and then the girls got the talk while all the guys watched a film in class. That was 41 years ago.




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