RE: A Bright Idea (Full Version)

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tj444 -> RE: A Bright Idea (3/10/2012 7:37:53 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: SternSkipper

quote:

the high cost is due (in part?) to the high cost of the rare metals that go into the lights manufacture... perhaps that is why the US govt wanted new cheaper ones invented..

http://www.good.is/post/the-next-great-resource-rush-rare-earth-metals/

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/cndy/2011-08/18/content_13137990.htm


Now that it's invented and on the market... it's subject the electronics market rules of the road?
There are virtually no exceptions. [:D] Yjr Rare Earth issue will be moot, sooner rather than later,

doesnt that depend on the patents? if there have been patents on the new design,.. then they would have a monopoly of sorts.. that doesnt mean other companies/inventions can get around that somehow..

I do hope that the price comes down cuz i wont buy any until it does.. and i hate the idea that China could have a monopoly on certain metals and hold the rest of the world hostage to whatever they wish to charge..



Musicmystery -> RE: A Bright Idea (3/10/2012 9:13:39 AM)

quote:

the high cost is due (in part?)


The high cost is due primarily to the restriction that the bulbs be manufactured in the U.S.



SternSkipper -> RE: A Bright Idea (3/10/2012 10:05:17 AM)

quote:

doesnt that depend on the patents? if there have been patents on the new design,.. then they would have a monopoly of sorts.. that doesnt mean other companies/inventions can get around that somehow..


To a rather small degree with electronics... this is a field that is RIFE with competing technologies... so good luck to the manufacturer than wants to declare themselves the Exon of Domestic Lighting. Just because Phillips won the 'prize' and defrayed some of their development costs, doesn't mean there aren't DOZENS of competitors. Muse listed half a dozen for us just a few posts ago. Nah... this is LEDs and it's a long established technological path that's been basically rediscovered after being ignored and lobbied away from, which is now seeing re-visitation and substantial refinement.
And you wanna know the cool thing? There are a TON of technologies out there that we can re-tap. There were LOTS of engineers told in the 80s and 90s that they were essentially "nuts" or "it will never be able to get people's attention"... It's more of that "The Dirty Fucking hippies... WERE RIGHT" kind of thing come home to roost.



SternSkipper -> RE: A Bright Idea (3/10/2012 10:08:02 AM)

quote:

The high cost is due primarily to the restriction that the bulbs be manufactured in the U.S.


I think we can change all that too.... we can't be Chinese, but we can come back competing in the cost arena to a point where the added pride of "buying American" could make it plausible.
It's gotta start somewhere.



Musicmystery -> RE: A Bright Idea (3/10/2012 10:18:27 AM)

The same people who bitch "We should buy American!" are the first to bitch "It costs HOW much? No way!"

Explaining economics and comparative advantage is just never going to play here. They don't even want to hear about massive savings on electricity. We live in an entirely short term focus society.

That said...economies of scale will bring the cost down. I was one of the first to adopt CFs when they were expensive, and saved a fortune. My new house will have LEDs.




SternSkipper -> RE: A Bright Idea (3/10/2012 10:34:59 AM)

quote:

The same people who bitch "We should buy American!" are the first to bitch "It costs HOW much? No way!"


Yeah, ABSOLUTELY... that's just a pothole we gotta live with... but I think you can agree that there's a core of people that are not only substantial in number that prefer domestic good when they can afford the product. Look at all the "Organic" biz these days... most of that is domestically produced. It can't be shipped the same way imports can.



tweakabelle -> RE: A Bright Idea (3/10/2012 3:55:00 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

The $20 version of this light bulb pays for itself in about a year and thereafter is practically free for the remainder of its working life,

Yes.


My! It certainly looks as though this thread has established something quite opposite to the OP's intentions. It was set up to scoff at new bulbs and ended up as an ad for their superiority.

Perhaps the bureaucratic process can be a lot more productive than some people try to make it out to be



SternSkipper -> RE: A Bright Idea (3/10/2012 4:07:48 PM)

quote:

It was set up to scoff at new bulbs and ended up as an ad for their superiority.
I doubt the OP works for Philips' Marketing Dept... but it couldn't have turned out better if that had been the case.



Edwynn -> RE: A Bright Idea (3/10/2012 4:37:52 PM)


And this the thread started from a guy who claims knowledge of economics, yet would fail the first class in microeconomics. Lifetime cost of operation is one of the basics. But some people have beneath their capacity to comprehend the simplest of charts or tables. They need even the most fundamental aspects explained by way of political commentary, or forget it.

Not unlike a trainload of political liberals, but there it is.







MrBukani -> RE: A Bright Idea (3/11/2012 7:41:41 AM)

http://ledtown.nl/led-spots-1/mr16.html

led bulbs as cheap as 3.95. We are already there. Time caught up on this I guess.



Marc2b -> RE: A Bright Idea (3/12/2012 7:36:47 AM)

quote:

First, it's $20, not $50. Second, you will spend $20 every year on lighting your cheap bulb.


But not all at once. What I'd like to know is what do I (or someone who is not just struggling in this economy but is truly poor) take that $20 from? Should I take it out of the rent money? The car insurance? Groceries?

It is easy to be snide and dismissive when you don't have to think about such things. It is easy to have high moral standards when the practical consequences don't affect you.



Marc2b -> RE: A Bright Idea (3/12/2012 7:44:33 AM)

quote:

Marc, Cheapskates who drive AMC Pacers will absolutely revel in the idea of a light bulb that costs nothing to run and can be transferred in a will. So just be patient on the recyclable-probate condom thing... there are still some issues but they're working on it.


I think you misunderstood me when I mentioned a pacer in that other thread... I was referring to the pace car that drives around and keeps track of the lap or something (I don't really know, I don't really understand NASCAR that well). As for myself, I'm a pick-up truck kind of guy.

While I have been (I thought) somewhat humorous in my mock grumpiness my point remains... even at twenty dollars some people are going to have a hard time coming up with that money. Others, all high and mighty, don't give a shit. Satisfying their arrogant ego over how wonderfully progressive they are is more important to them.



Marc2b -> RE: A Bright Idea (3/12/2012 7:45:39 AM)

quote:

Should we bring up that decreasing demand for electricity lowers costs as well, or just leave it there?


Meaningless if you can't afford to buy the thing in the first place.



Marc2b -> RE: A Bright Idea (3/12/2012 7:49:59 AM)

quote:

And this the thread started from a guy who claims knowledge of economics, yet would fail the first class in microeconomics. Lifetime cost of operation is one of the basics. But some people have beneath their capacity to comprehend the simplest of charts or tables. They need even the most fundamental aspects explained by way of political commentary, or forget it.

Not unlike a trainload of political liberals, but there it is.


Some people can't afford to consider the charts and tables because they can't afford the wonderful new technology in the first place.



Marc2b -> RE: A Bright Idea (3/12/2012 7:52:32 AM)

quote:

ed bulbs as cheap as 3.95. We are already there. Time caught up on this I guess.


That's a bit more reasonable. Maybe it will get the high and mighty do-gooders who never bother to think about the consequences of their noble ideas on the poorest among us to shut the fuck up... but I'm not getting my hopes up.



Iamsemisweet -> RE: A Bright Idea (3/12/2012 8:13:05 AM)

Marc, I am not quite understanding your argument as to why these bulbs are a bad thing. It appears to be that since you can't afford them, it is elitist for others to want and use them. Does that about cover it?



Musicmystery -> RE: A Bright Idea (3/12/2012 8:24:50 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

quote:

ed bulbs as cheap as 3.95. We are already there. Time caught up on this I guess.


That's a bit more reasonable. Maybe it will get the high and mighty do-gooders who never bother to think about the consequences of their noble ideas on the poorest among us to shut the fuck up... but I'm not getting my hopes up.

Actually, I think you're determined to shoot at it no matter what. Couple of points:

*The bulbs cost $20 because they are manufactured in the U.S. -- something the majority of posters here keep saying they want, and who get all pissed off when I bring up the advantages of international trade and the problems with isolationism. This is one of them. $20 vs. $4. If you want to pan the $20, recognize you support free international trade, because that's what goes into the $4 bulb.

*I see the poorest of the poor spending $20 on cigarettes, beer, and lottery tickets day after day after day. If you so chose, you could buy one bulb for that chair where you like to park your ass for hours daily, and you'd save $20 in electricity the first year alone, each year after that giving you more money in your poor pocket.

Or you could bitch a lot and continue to pay. It's your money.

Nor am I being facetious. I know all about being poor, and lived here a year without heat or running water, struggling just to get the essentials and meet the payments for what I borrowed to have land. Yes, 25 years later I'm on a country estate and running successful businesses with substantial retirement savings, all of which I built tiny piece by tiny piece. Hell, I even planted my forest tree by tree.

Bitch or grow. That's the deal, and no amount of blame, resentment, or victimhood will change that.

"I used to think I was a victim. Then I realized I was a volunteer."



MrBukani -> RE: A Bright Idea (3/12/2012 10:34:47 AM)

We actually bought leds from silicon valley and put them, in a chinese transformer, cause the US quality of leds was way better.
There is one thing we will never do. Thats isolate ourselves from the worldmarket. Would be stupid, cause we export about 70 % of our BNP.(GNP?)
But thats just us. To be honest we have very little factories left here. And by inviting Poland in the EU would be like you guys would annex Mexico. Can you imagine?
I fuckin hate the EU and havin to pay for all those poor bastards like greeks, irish, spaniards italians, frenchies, portugese. Hmmm I think I have to stop here....[:D]
We hoarded booty for 400 years like nobody else. And now they are comin to rob us blind in return. Poetic justice.
But the rich keep gettin richer and the people always have to pay.



SternSkipper -> RE: A Bright Idea (3/12/2012 10:40:11 AM)

quote:

Nor am I being facetious. I know all about being poor, and lived here a year without heat or running water, struggling just to get the essentials and meet the payments for what I borrowed to have land. Yes, 25 years later I'm on a country estate and running successful businesses with substantial retirement savings, all of which I built tiny piece by tiny piece. Hell, I even planted my forest tree by tree.


Congratulations!
And for my part, I don't really know if Marc drives a Pacer or something sportier ... like say, a gremlin.



Marc2b -> RE: A Bright Idea (3/12/2012 12:15:04 PM)

quote:

Marc, I am not quite understanding your argument as to why these bulbs are a bad thing. It appears to be that since you can't afford them, it is elitist for others to want and use them. Does that about cover it?


I don't think they're a bad thing in and of themselves. I've read about them (Discover Magazine, I think) and actually think they are a good thing. My problem is with people who condescend to others who object to their high price and regard such people as intellectually and/or morally inferior. I object to the notion (prevalent in both the Left and the Right wings of politics) that we can legislate our way to paradise. "Ban the old bulbs! Mandate the new!" some people cry because it makes them feel wonderfully progressive (a word that too often is used as a euphemism for "I'm intellectually and morally superior). These same people give no thought to the fact that the added expenses of all their wonderfully progressive notions entail simply cannot be met by some people.



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