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Teaching/Learning about Law - 3/10/2012 8:59:29 AM   
SilverBoat


Posts: 257
Joined: 7/26/2006
Status: offline 		So ...

... I was listening to a CS&N song yesterday (you can probably figure out which one by the end of the next sentence), and since I've been dealing with patent attorneys for the last couple of weeks, the lyrics prompted a question:

... When, what, and how did you learn or were you taught about Law?

... And, as follow-up questions: What do you know of other people's experiences with that? How does (and has) that influence(d) the evolution of the US, and other nations, cultures, etc? 

... And yet another follow-up, maybe the most important: Could the teaching and learning of Law be better done, in order to form a more perfect union, provide for the common defense, establish justice, ensure the blessings of liberty for ourselves and our posterity?

... (I didn't look up the Preamble, that's just what I remembered at this moment, will go check how much I got correct.)

By way of starters, the Ten Commandments featured heavily in catholic elementary schools. I don't recall if those from kindergarden, maybe because it was a long time ago. We didn't have formal Civics classes, but History and Social Studies covered some of the constitutional development and so forth. Although I'm way older than Sesame-Street's Only-a-Bill ditty, I grew up while civil rights riots etc were national crises, and there's been lots of 'law' featured in plays, movies, tv-series, & on and on.

When matters involve formal Court proceedings though, what briefs, motions, precedents, all that stuff, how much do you or I, or even lawyers who haven't specialized in the particular arena know? Or should we know, or at least have some grasp of?

After all, if we're a Nation established in Rule of Law, isn't knowing about Law rather important if we're to rule ourselves (in this democratic representative republic or whatevet)?

...

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RE: Teaching/Learning about Law - 3/10/2012 9:12:24 AM   
DarkSteven


Posts: 28072
Joined: 5/2/2008
Status: offline 		I get the impression that by Law, you are referring to both the system of laws and the makeup of the government, which I think used to be taught in Civics classes.

My knowledge of the law is based upon college classes on Business Law, Natural Resources Law, and Environmental Law; and on reading up on landlord-tenant law and on employment law as it became necessary. And just living life.

My knowledge of civics is based upon political discussions with my father and on reading up on current events.

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RE: Teaching/Learning about Law - 3/10/2012 9:13:35 AM   
Moonhead


Posts: 16520
Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline 		Bear in mind that any legal talk at all is going to summon a certain poster.
You've just looked into the mirror and said "Candyman" three times, mate.

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RE: Teaching/Learning about Law - 3/10/2012 9:20:04 AM   
DaddySatyr


Posts: 9381
Joined: 8/29/2011
From: Pittston, Pennsyltucky
Status: offline 		Well, "Only A Bill" was from "ABC Schoolhouse Rock"

and you only missed one word (from my memory, also) in the pre-amble: The last "for", I think, should be a "to".

I studied some law classes as part of my criminology major. I don't remember much about social studies (except that I am too young to ever remember anything called a "civics" class in primary or secondary school) except that it always amused me that we usually studied the world as opposed to the US. (An entire three weeks spent on the Gobi Desert? Puh-lease!).

I heard a radio advertisement last night about a free online constitution course which I intend to sign up for and see what it's all about. I strongly recommend that anyone that can do something similar should.

The vast amount of people that know very little about the constitution is scary. It means that we are not able to tell when the law-makers are rogering us.



Peace and comfort,



Michael

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RE: Teaching/Learning about Law - 3/10/2012 9:42:32 AM   
SternSkipper


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Joined: 3/7/2004
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quote:

... When, what, and how did you learn or were you taught about Law?

My Dad came home from WW2, commuted every day from RI to attend BC Law in Boston. He graduated, passed the bar and then never practiced law as an attorney, for money, in the typical sense that is (he did periodically pick up his briefcase to help needy families with family law matters periodically). Instead, he helped run my home State's VFW, and became very prominently active in a pilot program of Veteran's Homes (more modern, much like today's "assisted living"). When that my state became the first state to have a real "Family Court" he was brought in as an architect and developed the "investigative model" that got adopted by many other states, but over 40 years has become riddled with indignities, in my opinion.
My mother was a women's political activist. Not a modern day 'feminist' but she could kick the ass off a room full of them, and still bake a mean-ass batch of congo bars. She was actively involved in her party's outreach to women voters as well as a March of Dimes state Chairwoman. She also didn't mention what she did much, she always had to be reminded of her accomplishments by my Dad and others.
I sat at the dinner table every night and listened to a man who wasn't shy about 'teaching the trade'. It was a very natural education. With real emphasis on the importance of the 'little details' like "shall", "intent", "may" and "discretion".
And on top of that, we had back up all the time... he was buddies with several Governors (Dems and Reps, many judges, all of whom would be frequent flyers at the Sunday dinner table). It was a great experience growing up in my house. And I genuinely feel lucky I had the parents I did.
That's where I picked up my understanding.


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RE: Teaching/Learning about Law - 3/10/2012 9:56:40 AM   
SilverBoat


Posts: 257
Joined: 7/26/2006
Status: offline 		I've had some classes on Law for Engineers, but most of that had to do much more generally with liability, contracts, patents, etc. They outlined in broad terms what current legal codes and precedents a person whose profession or business involved designing and producing machinery, buildings, etc should consider. The bottom line, though, was that for anything serious, we'd better have a properly specialized lawyer.

With regard to the organization of government, yeah, that was taught in all the K-12 schools, as far as I know. And perhaps half or more of the conflicts with interpreting consititutional stuff is the differences between 'legal' and 'common' definitions for words and phrases.

The "shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion" clause is a typical example of that. Despite two-centuries of wrangling, there's still uproar over how much limits that places on Congress. And to add to the mess, legal rigamarole extending back to the Magna Carta get invoked about who has 'standing' to bring lawsuits about any of that.

Anyway, the questions I posted were aimed more at the legal complexities, the language, precedents, etc, than the rules that govern government. Most US citizens, I'd hope, have at least a vague idea of Bills, Committees, Cloture, Veto, etc. It's when the legislation passed gets threaded into the US Code and mangled by lawyers, courts, and so forth; how much do most people really know about that, when/how did they learn if they did, and can they be reasonably expected to conduct democracy on themselves if they don't have some grasp of all that?

...

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RE: Teaching/Learning about Law - 3/10/2012 10:05:10 AM   
kalikshama


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quote:

BC Law in Boston


My sister went there too. My (now ex) husband and I got bored during the graduation ceremony and after she was called went and had sex in the van.

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RE: Teaching/Learning about Law - 3/10/2012 10:27:34 AM   
SternSkipper


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Joined: 3/7/2004
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quote:

My sister went there too. My (now ex) husband and I got bored during the graduation ceremony and after she was called went and had sex in the van.


the friend I mentioned the other day who just came back from Iraq went there the same time I was in school in Boston... We've had similar experiences... just not at graduation

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RE: Teaching/Learning about Law - 3/10/2012 10:27:44 AM   
SilverBoat


Posts: 257
Joined: 7/26/2006
Status: offline 		From the sort of family and friends context, I absorbed a lot more physics and biology than law and politics. My sibs have generated enough legal complications for themselves that I've had to learn more law than I'd prefer, and then there's the whole patent thing.

Interesting, though. Do you think there should be more formal teaching about law in K-12 education?

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RE: Teaching/Learning about Law - 3/10/2012 10:55:54 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline 		I find that most people are as shockingly uninformed on the law and civics as they are on science.

We desperately need to do a better job of educating our populace on both.

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RE: Teaching/Learning about Law - 3/10/2012 12:37:31 PM   
SternSkipper


Posts: 7546
Joined: 3/7/2004
Status: offline
quote:

xt, I absorbed a lot more physics and biology than law and politics. My sibs have generated enough legal complications for themselves that I've had to learn more law than I'd prefer, and then there's the whole patent thing.


Every dinner table back then taught a different set of strengths... in fact, that was one of the things that for a generations made this country strong. I have a friend who's Dad was a Surgeon down the local naval base where we grew up who saved another friend's life one night when we were partying on an island in the middle of Narragansett Bay his knowledge of wounds "he "picked up hanging out with Dad" stopped bleeding that everybody universally agreed would have killed him, were it not for his skill and a foot of fishing line.
Funny how stuff works, isn't it?


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RE: Teaching/Learning about Law - 3/10/2012 1:19:05 PM   
Iamsemisweet


Posts: 3651
Joined: 4/9/2011
From: The Great Northwest, USA
Status: offline 		Law school. My parents hated lawyers (early adapters, I guess) so we never talked about this stuff at home. They also hated politicians. so now I am the black sheep of my family

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RE: Teaching/Learning about Law - 3/10/2012 3:42:56 PM   
SilverBoat


Posts: 257
Joined: 7/26/2006
Status: offline 		(just back from munch) ... GR::

I'd agree that more knowledge of Law could have some huge benefits, not least among those that citizens might get shafted less often by abusive business practices. And like much of physics etc a couple of centuries ago, much of law seems more complicated than it needs to be, perhaps more out of job security for lawyers than benefit to the society. (That applies to lots of computer programming as well; sure, it sometimes has to be complicated, but there's much that is more convoluted than necessary.)

One downside often cited to everybody knowing more Law, is that frivolous suits would gridlock the courts. I think that proper handling of that might force some badly needed clarity into the whole mess.

...



< Message edited by SilverBoat -- 3/10/2012 3:43:27 PM >

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RE: Teaching/Learning about Law - 3/10/2012 3:47:25 PM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SilverBoat

So ...

... I was listening to a CS&N song yesterday (you can probably figure out which one by the end of the next sentence), and since I've been dealing with patent attorneys for the last couple of weeks, the lyrics prompted a question:

... When, what, and how did you learn or were you taught about Law?

... And, as follow-up questions: What do you know of other people's experiences with that? How does (and has) that influence(d) the evolution of the US, and other nations, cultures, etc? 

... And yet another follow-up, maybe the most important: Could the teaching and learning of Law be better done, in order to form a more perfect union, provide for the common defense, establish justice, ensure the blessings of liberty for ourselves and our posterity?

... (I didn't look up the Preamble, that's just what I remembered at this moment, will go check how much I got correct.)

By way of starters, the Ten Commandments featured heavily in catholic elementary schools. I don't recall if those from kindergarden, maybe because it was a long time ago. We didn't have formal Civics classes, but History and Social Studies covered some of the constitutional development and so forth. Although I'm way older than Sesame-Street's Only-a-Bill ditty, I grew up while civil rights riots etc were national crises, and there's been lots of 'law' featured in plays, movies, tv-series, & on and on.

When matters involve formal Court proceedings though, what briefs, motions, precedents, all that stuff, how much do you or I, or even lawyers who haven't specialized in the particular arena know? Or should we know, or at least have some grasp of?

After all, if we're a Nation established in Rule of Law, isn't knowing about Law rather important if we're to rule ourselves (in this democratic representative republic or whatevet)?

...




Wow what a topic, what a clusterfuck.

I had a great argument the other day with one of the legislative attorneys from our state who claimed that the common law had been statutized and I promptly told him that is impossible because much of it is unwritten law leans ecclesiastic or in many cases is inherent and or is declared by the party.

It was funny because he could not answer why the government was vested in the "territory" not the state of wisconsin, and I would wager no one on this board knows that answer either.

We argued about the power of the jury to decide both the law and fact and that the judge can only operate as a minister, he claimed not so, well needless to say I was forced to send him supreme court opinions making the point.

We discussed matters that the legislature IS NOT required to pass constitutional law and they can and DO shove any shit through and we the people are left to fend for ourselves and out of our private pockets to defend agains the legislative bullshit they pass.

There are roughly 60 million laws BUT go to court and ignorance of the fucking LEWWWWW is no excuse for YOU, however judges and attorneys do not need to know the law where in collusion decisions are made not only in smarts but ignorance which of course forces another 500 bucks out you for an appeal.

They have a blank check. The legisture passes shit and courts opine shit for rulings and the shittier they get the more business they get! What a few grand damages when a lone citizen should win a case when they have already milked billions off the top?

Talk about job security.

I can literally go on and on, if you dont know what you are doing they will use a word improperly and you wont catch it to object and acquiesce on the matter hence waiving it for appeal.

Look at the timeline.

Go ahead, pick up the statutes for any state, lets choose a fun one like nusiance laws. (even the supreme court acknowledges is real stanky bullshit), say they wrote you up for grass too long and you say hey wait a fucking minute. Go through the city ordinances, by-laws, policy, state law and finally federal law to see if you can find why that is a violation of most peoples rights. wait till you see the hours you will invest and the labrinth of total bullshit you will need to study and of course they demand a response from you in 7 days! Yeh that justice!

Go ahead and see how many attorneys will sign a contract with you to defend your inherent rights.

How about the inherent right to travel and the government converting it to a "driving" privilege, yeh that wonderful play on words. "terrorist" comes to mind!

We have corporate courts that have combined and thrown all forms of law in to a pot and gave themselves the power of "construction", such that they can tip the playing field anyway they want and it will sound plausible and it is used daily ad infinitum against the people to suck money out ot them, fill their sludge funds, maintain power and milk it until someone is smart enough to trap them if its even possible to make the right decision.

yeh a clusterfuck in lala land based on some asswipe king's whims carried forawrd to the states.

The courts rule this country because we have no mandatory jury courts of peers for "everything", (peers only count in england not feudal america), and the jurys are clueless as to the power they "really" have. peers in america are any citizen.

Look at a statute, they are all one shoe fits all ordeals and since deMOB said thats the way its going to be yo uhave fight and pay mutha fucka pay to have your life any other way even though there is no injury or cause beyond a penal matter of whim.

It only takes one time fighting the gub to learn all this, and if you win well they keep coming back, one agency after another take their shot at you. Any wonder people are terrified of the government? errrm gubafia?

Heritic has issues with freedome of speech? Well that used to be right to petition the government for redress of a grievance which meant the legilature had to go into session! ah huh! Like travel reduced to the right to whine, and the exercize of religion reduced to the right to right to pray.

That is how the asshelmets PROTECT our rights, they DONT yet they claim they do and it stands up in court. Talk about a real life fantasy, kink does not hold a candle to the LEW!




< Message edited by Real0ne -- 3/10/2012 3:55:57 PM >

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

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RE: Teaching/Learning about Law - 3/11/2012 12:10:13 PM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

Well, "Only A Bill" was from "ABC Schoolhouse Rock"

and you only missed one word (from my memory, also) in the pre-amble: The last "for", I think, should be a "to".

I studied some law classes as part of my criminology major. I don't remember much about social studies (except that I am too young to ever remember anything called a "civics" class in primary or secondary school) except that it always amused me that we usually studied the world as opposed to the US. (An entire three weeks spent on the Gobi Desert? Puh-lease!).

I heard a radio advertisement last night about a free online constitution course which I intend to sign up for and see what it's all about. I strongly recommend that anyone that can do something similar should.

The vast amount of people that know very little about the constitution is scary. It means that we are not able to tell when the law-makers are rogering us.



Peace and comfort,



Michael



and the truly unnerving part is that they all VOTE!

and that its a closed shop.

who elects the supreme court justices?

NOT the "people"

ALL the variants of law are under one corporate roof that has claimed to be the authority, people not with standing.

That is even more unnerving.

Everything the gub does is a function of past present or future law



< Message edited by Real0ne -- 3/11/2012 12:11:22 PM >

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to DaddySatyr)
Profile   Post #: 15
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