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[Poll]

do you have the right to die?

yes

93% (30)

no

6% (2)

Total Votes : 32

(last vote on : 3/14/2012 11:36:00 AM)
(Poll will run till: -- )

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do you have the right to die? - 3/12/2012 6:37:41 AM

deathtothepixies

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Should this man be able to end his own life in a dignified manner? At the moment the only way for him to end is life is by starvation, which he says would be a very slow and painful death which would be witnessed by his wife and daughters.
My personal opinion is that his life sounds like a living hell, and if I were in his shoes I would be doing whatever I could to end it as soon as possible including starvation, but he seems to be a nicer/braver guy than me and he doesn't want to put his loved ones through that and he is also prepared to fight for the rights of people in a similar position and for those who will come after him.
Has medicine moved on so fast that the law has been left behind? I am guessing that the massive stroke that left him like this would have been fatal50 or 100 years ago, maybe even 20 years ago so this type of question would never have asked in the first place.
What role if any does religion have to play in this? I imagine some religious groups will always be against anything that prematurely ends life, whatever the quality of that life. Are too many of our laws based around religious beliefs that for a lot of people are no longer relevent?
What do you guys think?
Is that far too many questions??

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-17336774

Tony Nicklinson, who is paralysed and wants a doctor to be able to lawfully end his life, should be allowed to proceed with his "right-to-die" case, a High Court judge has ruled.

The 58-year-old from Melksham, Wiltshire, has "locked-in syndrome" following a stroke in 2005 and is unable to carry out his own suicide.

He is seeking legal protection for any doctor who helps him end his life.

The Ministry of Justice argues making such a ruling would change murder laws.

"Locked-in syndrome" leaves people with paralysed bodies but fully-functioning minds.

Locked-in syndrome
Condition in which patient is mute and totally paralysed, except for eye movements, but remains conscious
Usually results from massive haemorrhage or other damage
It affects upper part of brain stem, which destroys almost all motor function but leaves the higher mental functions intact

The judge's ruling now means that Mr Nicklinson's case will go to a full hearing, where medical evidence can be heard.

Following the judge's ruling that his case can proceed, Mr Nicklinson's wife Jane read out a statement from her husband on BBC 5live.

It said: "I'm delighted that the issues surrounding assisted dying are to be aired in court. Politicians and others can hardly complain with the courts providing the forum for debate if the politicians continue to ignore one of the most important topics facing our society today.

"It's no longer acceptable for 21st Century medicine to be governed by 20th Century attitudes to death."

'Stressful' wait

Mr Nicklinson, who communicates through the use of an electronic board or special computer, said before the ruling that his life was "dull, miserable, demeaning, undignified and intolerable".

During the radio interview, Mrs Nicklinson passed on questions to her husband, using his letters board to spell out his response.

When asked what he hoped would happen next, he replied: "I will be able to access a doctor when the time is right."

He went on to spell out: "I can just about cope with life at the moment, but not forever."

Mrs Nicklinson said she was "really pleased" with the judge's decision. "It's been quite stressful waiting for this decision.

"It's really good to know that the judge thinks that we have a case that needs to be argued."

Earlier, Mrs Nicklinson said that her husband "just wants to know that, when the time comes, he has a way out".

"If you knew the kind of person that he was before, life like this is unbearable for him," she added.

She said she did not know when her husband might actually want to die. "I suppose just when he can't take it any more," she said.

Legal arguments

Mr Nicklinson, who has two grown-up daughters, launched a legal action seeking court declarations that a doctor could intervene to end his "indignity" and have a "common law defence of necessity" against any murder charge.

But David Perry QC, representing the Ministry of Justice, told the High Court that Mr Nicklinson "is saying the court should positively authorise and permit as lawful the deliberate taking of his life".

He added: "That is not, and cannot be, the law of England and Wales unless Parliament were to say otherwise."

Solicitor for Tony Nicklinson

Following his ruling at the High Court, Mr Justice Charles said the case's issues "raise questions that have great social, ethical and religious significance and they are questions on which widely differing beliefs and views are held, often strongly".

He said the issues before him only related to whether Mr Nicklinson's arguments "have any real prospect of success or whether there is some other compelling reason why these proceedings should be tried".

Mr Nicklinson's solicitor, Saimo Chahl, said the next step was for the courts to examine "in great detail what the individual circumstances of the case are before authorising any steps to be taken".

"It would all be extremely carefully controlled and vetted before any doctor were given permission - were we to be successful.

"And you have to bear in mind actually that this is a case which is likely to go further, which is likely to end up in the Supreme Court one way or another, before the law is changed."

BBC legal correspondent Clive Coleman says the case goes beyond assisted suicide as Mr Nicklinson's paralysis is so severe it would prevent him from receiving assistance to kill himself and he would have to be killed - and that would amount to murder.

He says Mr Nicklinson is seeking a court declaration based on his right to respect for private life under Article 8 of the Human Rights Convention - in effect saying that in his circumstances, his right to life includes the right to end his life in a humane manner of his choosing.

Post #: 1

RE: do you have the right to die? - 3/12/2012 8:39:48 AM

Iamsemisweet

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From: The Great Northwest, USA
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Oregon has a doctor assisted suicide law, that was intensely attacked by the people you would expect to attack a death with dignity law, in other words, the Catholic Church. The voters of Oregon, as well as the courts, told the right wingers to pound sand.

_____________________________

Alice: But I don't want to go among mad people.
The Cat: Oh, you can't help that. We're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.
Alice: How do you know I'm mad?
The Cat: You must be. Or you wouldn't have come here.

(in reply to deathtothepixies)

Post #: 2

RE: do you have the right to die? - 3/12/2012 2:42:54 PM

Kirata

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I anticipate some fiery debate on this one.

K.

(in reply to Iamsemisweet)

Post #: 3

RE: do you have the right to die? - 3/12/2012 3:03:42 PM

Real0ne

Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline

I did not bother reading this as it boils down to;

Do you have the right to have someone else put you to death? no

Do you have the right to blow your brains out? Tell them to sue you if they dont like it LOL

Finally since when it that up to the "state" to decide?

Do you ask them if you have the right to breathe? Eat? Crap?

Is it your body or theirs? If you need permission to die it must be theirs, or you believe they have a controlling interest in it....

Did you think about that?

_____________________________

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(in reply to deathtothepixies)

Post #: 4

RE: do you have the right to die? - 3/12/2012 3:09:22 PM

kdsub

Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
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I voted yes but with reservations. I can see where a open law where anyone can choose death whenever they want could be abused…criminally so.

I believe there should be strict guidelines governing any right to die law. For instance…three doctors agreeing that the persons illness is irreversible and terminal and in their estimate they have 6 months or less to live. They would have also passed a psychological evaluation for competence. The only exception would be a living will if they were incapacitated administered by a person with power of attorney.

We are not talking assisted suicide but the choice of ending ones life with dignity with as little pain and cost as possible.

Butch

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I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to deathtothepixies)

Post #: 5

RE: do you have the right to die? - 3/12/2012 3:11:19 PM

MasterSlaveLA

Posts: 3991
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: deathtothepixies

Do you have the right to die?

No... at least in terms of euthanasia -- but, personally, I think we should have that right... for the terminally ill, anyway.

_____________________________

It's only kinky the first time!!!

(in reply to deathtothepixies)

Post #: 6

RE: do you have the right to die? - 3/12/2012 3:14:56 PM

LafayetteLady

Posts: 7683
Joined: 5/2/2007
From: Northern New Jersey
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It's a tough thing. There is sense on both sides (having nothing to do with religion). There is considerable worry that it will result in euthanasia of "unwanted" people. Those who are under the care of others who no longer want to care for them, or worse, that people will "convince" others to end their life.

Personally, I believe there are circumstances where it should be permitted, however, not just because someone decides they want to die. In other words, clinical depression doesn't qualify. It is a treatable condition.

On the other hand, look at someone like Christopher Reeve. Initially, he wanted to die after his accident, however, over time, while I'm sure he had moments of utter despair, he went on to do a lot of good and have some quality of life.

The man in the OP, wants to be able to make that decision when things get "too much to bear." It is really interesting that his having his case heard has improved his state of mind.

(in reply to deathtothepixies)

Post #: 7

RE: do you have the right to die? - 3/12/2012 3:15:39 PM

Iamsemisweet

Posts: 3651
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From: The Great Northwest, USA
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I had a business partner once who became a quadriplegic in an accidence. He was a real outdoorsman, athletic type before his accident. He often talked of wishing he could have killed himself, but of course, he couldn't do it himself, and it would be murder for anyone else to do it for him.

< Message edited by Iamsemisweet -- 3/12/2012 3:31:18 PM >

_____________________________

Alice: But I don't want to go among mad people.
The Cat: Oh, you can't help that. We're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.
Alice: How do you know I'm mad?
The Cat: You must be. Or you wouldn't have come here.

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Post #: 8

RE: do you have the right to die? - 3/12/2012 3:23:23 PM

MasterSlaveLA

Posts: 3991
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Iamsemisweet

I had a business partner once who became a quadriplegic in an accidence. He was a really outdoorsman, athletic type before his accident. He often talked of wishing he could have killed himself, but of course, he couldn't do it himself, and it would be murder for anyone else to do it for him.

Now thaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat's kind of a tough one, and I suspect one reason most law makers are hesitant about legalizing Euthanasia. Electing to end one's life when terminally ill, and facing a slow, painful death is one thing... electing to terminate life based on perceived "quality of life" is another. Again... this'd be a tough issue.

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Post #: 9

RE: do you have the right to die? - 3/12/2012 3:33:55 PM

Iamsemisweet

Posts: 3651
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From: The Great Northwest, USA
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I agree, MSLA. It is a sticky issue. My former partner has been a quad for 10 very unhappy years. Given an option, I suspect he would have refused the medical care that saved his life in the first place, but he didn't have that option either. On the other hand, by current business partner is also a quad, and has been since he was 16. He has a family, got a good education, and leads a pretty fulfilling life, under the circumstances.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA

quote:

ORIGINAL: Iamsemisweet

I had a business partner once who became a quadriplegic in an accidence. He was a really outdoorsman, athletic type before his accident. He often talked of wishing he could have killed himself, but of course, he couldn't do it himself, and it would be murder for anyone else to do it for him.

Now thaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat's kind of a tough one, and I suspect one reason most law makers are hesitant about legalizing Euthanasia. Electing to end one's life when terminally ill, and facing a slow, painful death is one thing... electing to terminate life based on perceived "quality of life" is another. Again... this'd be a tough issue.

_____________________________

Alice: But I don't want to go among mad people.
The Cat: Oh, you can't help that. We're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.
Alice: How do you know I'm mad?
The Cat: You must be. Or you wouldn't have come here.

(in reply to MasterSlaveLA)

Post #: 10

RE: do you have the right to die? - 3/12/2012 3:35:13 PM

DaddySatyr

Posts: 9381
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From: Pittston, Pennsyltucky
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I voted yes. We had a thread that kind of wandered into this area, a short time back (I think). I said, then that I would limit the decision to people of sound mind either of their own volition or by honoring a living will. No third-party decision making.

This would be an area that is rife with dangerous potential to be exploited for sinister purposes but I think it is cruel to demand that people that just feel like they can no longer go on should feel "forced" to do so. After all, who but the person, living that life, should be the judge of whether or not it is one of "quality"?

Peace and comfort,

Michael

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Post #: 11

RE: do you have the right to die? - 3/12/2012 3:37:36 PM

IceDemeter

Posts: 84
Status: offline

A good friend had inoperable cancer in his brain, causing a gradual change in his abilities and personality. The personality changes were not for the better, and included an increasing lack of self-awareness. The prognosis was certain death, but it could take months or years. This was a man with a wife and a young child. He chose to go to Holland and have his life ended before his personality devolved completely. He made the choice so that his wife and child would have HIM to remember, and not some pitiful piece of human wreckage for which they had the burden of care for however long. The family had the opportunity for knowing and loving farewells, and he maintained his dignity until the end.

His choice was made for the benefit of his family, as he himself would have been unaware as the changes continued. I mourn his loss but applaud his strength. I hope that I have the same strength to make the same choice if I am ever in his shoes.

Medical science has allowed the existence of the human body long after knowledge, or joy, or dignity are gone. Should we not have the ability to make our own individual choice as to when is the right time to choose a dignified end over an "existence" that holds no joy for us or our loved ones? If we are physically unable to "pull the plug" ourselves, should we not be able to designate someone to do that for us, knowing that the person will not have any legal repurcussions for assisting us in having a dignified ending?

I applaud the man in this story and his family for bringing this to the courts, and I truly hope that this is the start of bringing a change in the laws not only in the UK but also over here in Canada.

(in reply to Iamsemisweet)

Post #: 12

RE: do you have the right to die? - 3/12/2012 3:43:36 PM

BitaTruble

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From: Texas
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Wow.. tough question. Ultimately to die is something none of us can 'hard limit'. One of my brothers is a non-verbal spastic quad. He can't speak but he can type with his headstick (not well, but enough to get his point across and play a mean ass game of chess.) I don't think I am brave enough or have the heart to help him end his life if he asked. I am selfish. I want him around and he's already exceeded doctors expectations of life by about 20 years. I would worry that such a wish would be granted and within a short time there might be a cure to what ails.

I am conflicted on this issue and would need a lot more time than I currently have to balance the tug of my heart with the logic in my head to resolve such when it comes to someone that I dearly love. With myself, not so much. I would rather have quality of life than quantity but I am the only one who can judge what that means to me.

_____________________________

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Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."

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Post #: 13

RE: do you have the right to die? - 3/12/2012 4:05:49 PM

erieangel

Posts: 2237
Joined: 6/19/2011
Status: offline

I voted yes because medical science has far outpaced our laws as well as our compassion in many cases. But I also think it is important for everybody to have a living will as well as advanced directives pertaining to care. I have both, though currently because of my mental illness, my advanced directives only addresses those issues. I will never consent to going to the state hospital, for instance--no matter how much a doctor thinks I might benefit from being there. Nor will I undergo any type of ECT and there are certain medications I refuse to take based on my knowledge after 30 years dealing with my mental illness.

My mother had a living will that stated she would not want extraordinary taken in case of injury or illness. It helped us to discontinue all fluids after she didn't wake from her last surgery. She survived for a week after fluids were taken away.

(in reply to BitaTruble)

Post #: 14

RE: do you have the right to die? - 3/12/2012 5:15:50 PM

deathtothepixies

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Joined: 2/19/2012
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I think we should be able to nominate someone and for them to be safe from any legal ramifications. It seems to me that the law will have to move (slowly as the law usually does) towards some kind of legalisation of assisted suicide or assisted murder (too harsh?) as there are more and more of these kinds of cases occuring

quote:

ORIGINAL: IceDemeter

A good friend had inoperable cancer in his brain, causing a gradual change in his abilities and personality. The personality changes were not for the better, and included an increasing lack of self-awareness. The prognosis was certain death, but it could take months or years. This was a man with a wife and a young child. He chose to go to Holland and have his life ended before his personality devolved completely. He made the choice so that his wife and child would have HIM to remember, and not some pitiful piece of human wreckage for which they had the burden of care for however long. The family had the opportunity for knowing and loving farewells, and he maintained his dignity until the end.

His choice was made for the benefit of his family, as he himself would have been unaware as the changes continued. I mourn his loss but applaud his strength. I hope that I have the same strength to make the same choice if I am ever in his shoes.

Medical science has allowed the existence of the human body long after knowledge, or joy, or dignity are gone. Should we not have the ability to make our own individual choice as to when is the right time to choose a dignified end over an "existence" that holds no joy for us or our loved ones? If we are physically unable to "pull the plug" ourselves, should we not be able to designate someone to do that for us, knowing that the person will not have any legal repurcussions for assisting us in having a dignified ending?

I applaud the man in this story and his family for bringing this to the courts, and I truly hope that this is the start of bringing a change in the laws not only in the UK but also over here in Canada.

(in reply to IceDemeter)

Post #: 15

RE: do you have the right to die? - 3/12/2012 5:27:29 PM

deathtothepixies

Posts: 683
Joined: 2/19/2012
Status: offline

maybe if you had read the article you would have had something worthwhile to add. As it is you did not so why answer at all?
Did you think about that?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

I did not bother reading this as it boils down to;

Do you have the right to have someone else put you to death? no

Do you have the right to blow your brains out? Tell them to sue you if they dont like it LOL

Finally since when it that up to the "state" to decide?

Do you ask them if you have the right to breathe? Eat? Crap?

Is it your body or theirs? If you need permission to die it must be theirs, or you believe they have a controlling interest in it....

Did you think about that?

< Message edited by deathtothepixies -- 3/12/2012 5:28:18 PM >

(in reply to Real0ne)

Post #: 16

RE: do you have the right to die? - 3/12/2012 5:58:53 PM

Politesub53

Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline

Nothing to do with religion here in the UK, more to do with the law as it is currently written. I feel those who would rahter day than face such an ordeal should be allowed to.

Butch was right though, the existing law is to protect people from abuse.

(in reply to deathtothepixies)

Post #: 17

RE: do you have the right to die? - 3/12/2012 6:29:11 PM

MasterSlaveLA

Posts: 3991
Status: offline

Add to that those that are severely depressed, suffer from a severe mental illness, or who have become suicidal -- if Euthanasia was an option, I wonder how many would choose it?!! For that matter, what of those that, during the financial meltdown of 2008, LOST EVERYTHING and have become depressed/suicidal as a result?!!

A "sticky" issue to be sure... fucking Crazy Glue "sticky"?!!

OOF!!!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Iamsemisweet

I agree, MSLA. It is a sticky issue. My former partner has been a quad for 10 very unhappy years. Given an option, I suspect he would have refused the medical care that saved his life in the first place, but he didn't have that option either. On the other hand, by current business partner is also a quad, and has been since he was 16. He has a family, got a good education, and leads a pretty fulfilling life, under the circumstances.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA

quote:

ORIGINAL: Iamsemisweet

I had a business partner once who became a quadriplegic in an accidence. He was a really outdoorsman, athletic type before his accident. He often talked of wishing he could have killed himself, but of course, he couldn't do it himself, and it would be murder for anyone else to do it for him.

Now thaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat's kind of a tough one, and I suspect one reason most law makers are hesitant about legalizing Euthanasia. Electing to end one's life when terminally ill, and facing a slow, painful death is one thing... electing to terminate life based on perceived "quality of life" is another. Again... this'd be a tough issue.

_____________________________

It's only kinky the first time!!!

(in reply to Iamsemisweet)

Post #: 18

RE: do you have the right to die? - 3/12/2012 6:45:37 PM

erieangel

Posts: 2237
Joined: 6/19/2011
Status: offline

You know, as somebody who is mentally ill and has had and is capable of again having issues of psychosis, I really hate when people declare that the mentally ill shouldn't be permitted to do this or that. In PA, you can't even get a gun license if you've ever had a stay in a mental hospital. It doesn't matter how long ago, for how brief a time, what the diagnosis was---I simply can not get a gun license. I work full time, pay my taxes on time, own my home (mortgage-free), am less than 20 grand in debt, due to my new car purchase, have never committed a criminal act, and yet, I am treated as a criminal in many ways for something I have never had any control over.

So, yes, I put in my advance directive that should I attempt suicide and end up in a coma, no extraordinary measures should be taken to save me. And my living will says the same should I end up terminally ill or paralyzed due to an accident. I've been thinking about adding to the living will to account for cases such as advanced Alzheimer's, in which case I might want to be put to death, but I have think about the extent of the illness and talk again with an attorney.

(in reply to MasterSlaveLA)

Post #: 19

RE: do you have the right to die? - 3/12/2012 7:13:05 PM

Lockit

Posts: 11292
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline

My son died and they brought him back... brain damaged. He couldn't breath on his own, was in a coma for a few days and was given a feeding tube. We were told he had no brain activity and then told that he had some. We knew it would be bad and asked that they take him off life support. They refused. Now, Charlie is doing far better than they ever thought he would, but he will always need care. I worked long and hard to get him where he is today, but he doesn't fit in any other setting than what I have him in. He cannot be around children for long because he will hit them.. thinking they are being bad or noisy or did some unknown thing he thought was bad. If he is put in a facility he will be medicated to wake or sleep and to do that, he will need very strong medication and will be put on typical protocol which means anti psychotics which make him hallucinate. Then they can't control him, which means they strap him to a bed.

He wanted to die. He did, he was brought back to now live a life I try to make good and yet... he faces exactly what I saved him from, when I can no longer do this. Will he get violent with me? Chances are good that he will. Will I be harmed? I already have been and once a year it seems, I get physically hurt.

What do you do? What do you decide? All I know is that the future isn't looking bright for either of us and my hell is... what will happen to him when I am gone and as a ward of the state unless someone pays for that facility, they can do whatever the hell they want to do to him and it will be something the tax payer pays for which will mean... yeah... not the greatest of places with caring staff that can actually do all they are expected to do. He will have no protection and will be trapped. He was abused before I was able to save him... I have no doubt that he could be again.

They saved him because they could and the good doctor had an ego. Is this a life worth living? As his mother, of course I want him alive and to do what I can for him, but knowing the outcome can only be what it will be... I have to finally admit... I wish that dr. ego had never met us. The other doctors were going to let him go.

Now... would I be able to determine what was right to do? He couldn't have. Quality of life has to mean something. Where is the line drawn? Where I can handle it? Where he can? Where a doctor says it is? I don't have the answers, but many cases are not clear cut and getting a couple of doctors to agree... good luck on that. Someone might meet up with a dr. ego like we did. Is my Charlie better off this way or what might have been?

_____________________________

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Post #: 20

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