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A Republican Voice for Marriage Equality - 3/13/2012 5:37:09 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

I heard a lot of rhetoric about gay and lesbian Americans that didn’t fit with what I know to be true and what many Republicans believe. As an evangelical Christian Republican, I know many people who hold conservative values like equality and freedom, but those voices were lost this year. However, I believe in my heart that things are changing. If it weren’t for the loud voices of a few in our party, I do believe more Republicans would stand up in support of marriage equality.

Complete column: http://thegazette.com/2012/03/13/stand-together/


We tend to paint the parties with fairly broad brushes here in P&R, so it was nice to come across this reminder that real folks are more nuanced that we often give them credit for.

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RE: A Republican Voice for Marriage Equality - 3/13/2012 5:59:55 PM   
Owner59


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Status: offline 		There are plenty of republicans like Mrs.Potts.......in the ranks.

It`s the leadership that`s the problem.

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RE: A Republican Voice for Marriage Equality - 3/13/2012 6:02:16 PM   
DaddySatyr


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From: Pittston, Pennsyltucky
Status: offline 		I've said it before. I'll say it, again: The government does not belong in the marriage business. It's really that simple.



Peace and comfort,



Michael

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RE: A Republican Voice for Marriage Equality - 3/13/2012 6:04:09 PM   
Lucylastic


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RE: A Republican Voice for Marriage Equality - 3/13/2012 6:33:24 PM   
Owner59


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

I've said it before. I'll say it, again: The government does not belong in the marriage business. It's really that simple.



Peace and comfort,



Michael

Your cop-out aside,marriage is a legal contract.....regulated,officiated and facilitated by government............like from the beginning of recorded time.

So now that we`ve established that government IS involved in the "marriage business".....they ought to enforce and apply the laws equally.

Unless you can explain why not....






_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

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RE: A Republican Voice for Marriage Equality - 3/13/2012 6:41:13 PM   
DaddySatyr


Posts: 9381
Joined: 8/29/2011
From: Pittston, Pennsyltucky
Status: offline 		Gee. Once again, you misinterpret me. Let me help you:

Marriage was originally a religious ritual. It was two people (sometimes more) standing before their god (or gods) and professing their love and their intent to spend their lives together.

The government has no place in that. It is a personal thing between/amongst two/or more people. Plain and simple. The government does not belong in the marriage business. It has not been "a legal contract.....regulated,officiated and facilitated by government............like from the beginning of recorded time." That's inaccurate.

Here, I'll do it another way so it makes the leap across the void:

It is not the government's business who we love, with whom we live or with whom we have sex. That's a direct violation of the 1st amendment (in a couple of the clauses).

The government does not belong in the marriage business. ETA: It is one of the unalienable rights with which we are endowed by our creator.



Peace and comfort,



Michael

< Message edited by DaddySatyr -- 3/13/2012 6:45:14 PM >

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Screen captures (and pissing on shadows) still RULE! Ya feel me?

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RE: A Republican Voice for Marriage Equality - 3/13/2012 6:49:05 PM   
Owner59


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Status: offline 		As far as the gubment and taxes and inheritance and rules and regs. go.......they are the ones who apply the law.........not churches......this whole line is a cop-out.

_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

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RE: A Republican Voice for Marriage Equality - 3/13/2012 6:52:46 PM   
DaddySatyr


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From: Pittston, Pennsyltucky
Status: offline 		No. You're bringing different areas into the discussion. That's fine.

The government can absolutely decide to give "married" people a tax break (although I would argue that that violates the 14th amendment).

The government has no right to tell anyone to whom they can leave their possessions, when they die. That's a private property grab that violates the 5th (at least). The argument can be made that they can tax such a transfer, I guess.

But, none of that changes the fact that you brought oranges to a discussion about apples.



Peace and comfort,



Michael

ETA: Karaoke time.

< Message edited by DaddySatyr -- 3/13/2012 6:53:38 PM >

_____________________________

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Screen captures (and pissing on shadows) still RULE! Ya feel me?

"For that which I love, I will do horrible things"

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RE: A Republican Voice for Marriage Equality - 3/13/2012 7:07:10 PM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

Gee. Once again, you misinterpret me. Let me help you:

Marriage was originally a religious ritual. It was two people (sometimes more) standing before their god (or gods) and professing their love and their intent to spend their lives together.

The government has no place in that. It is a personal thing between/amongst two/or more people. Plain and simple. The government does not belong in the marriage business. It has not been "a legal contract.....regulated,officiated and facilitated by government............like from the beginning of recorded time." That's inaccurate.

Here, I'll do it another way so it makes the leap across the void:

It is not the government's business who we love, with whom we live or with whom we have sex. That's a direct violation of the 1st amendment (in a couple of the clauses).

The government does not belong in the marriage business. ETA: It is one of the unalienable rights with which we are endowed by our creator.



Peace and comfort,



Michael

back before christianity it was a way to join families, fortunes and kingdoms..love had very little to do with it.. WAY before christianity too.Arranged marriages..were more about building communities than love... Dowries were common until the 20th century.
Men gave their daughters away to men they thought worthy of honour and ability to take over as protector/guardian/handler and controller of the female, who isnt to be trusted unless she is controlled by another male., its still in effect in many countries that dont embrace christianity.
Marriage is NOT an unalienable right, if it was, the LGBT community would be able to marry already


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\(•_•)
( (> A NASTY
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(•_•)
<) )> WOMAN
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RE: A Republican Voice for Marriage Equality - 3/13/2012 7:24:04 PM   
dcnovice


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Joined: 8/2/2006
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quote:

The government does not belong in the marriage business.


I see your point, DS, but the two are so entwined that I'm not sure how practical it is to to disentangle them.

If you don't mind my asking, have you always felt this way? I'm curious because I've only heard (various) folks talk about getting the government out of the marriage business since the advent of same-sex marriage.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to DaddySatyr)
Profile   Post #: 10
RE: A Republican Voice for Marriage Equality - 3/13/2012 9:30:11 PM   
LookieNoNookie


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Joined: 8/9/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

I heard a lot of rhetoric about gay and lesbian Americans that didn’t fit with what I know to be true and what many Republicans believe. As an evangelical Christian Republican, I know many people who hold conservative values like equality and freedom, but those voices were lost this year. However, I believe in my heart that things are changing. If it weren’t for the loud voices of a few in our party, I do believe more Republicans would stand up in support of marriage equality.

Complete column: http://thegazette.com/2012/03/13/stand-together/


We tend to paint the parties with fairly broad brushes here in P&R, so it was nice to come across this reminder that real folks are more nuanced that we often give them credit for.


I'm saddened by this.

I don't care if you don't like gay people (although I know most here are friends)...I'm a Republican.

I'm one of those that's supposed to hate them....Christian and all.....love Christianity....don't much care for Christians.....find them MOST offensive....

I don't even understand what that whole "marriage equality" thing means.

Seems to me, Republican or other...if you love someone....it just seems right.

If you care about someone.....if you want to build a home....just seems to me that should matter.

If you want to share a pillow....if that someone next to you matters.....I just don't get why someone else's opinion should fiucking matter.

It didn't matter to me when my parents thought they had a better plan when I was a punk, and I made it clear I liked girls, and now that I'm fairly clear they actually had a clue.....it still doesn't fucking matter to me.

What matters (to me) is....do you care.

FUCK EVERYONE!!!!!!

FUCK THEM!

(Fuck all of them).

Just love.

JJ

< Message edited by LookieNoNookie -- 3/13/2012 9:32:54 PM >

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RE: A Republican Voice for Marriage Equality - 3/13/2012 10:39:08 PM   
DaddySatyr


Posts: 9381
Joined: 8/29/2011
From: Pittston, Pennsyltucky
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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

The government does not belong in the marriage business.


I see your point, DS, but the two are so entwined that I'm not sure how practical it is to to disentangle them.

If you don't mind my asking, have you always felt this way? I'm curious because I've only heard (various) folks talk about getting the government out of the marriage business since the advent of same-sex marriage.


I'm going to be completely honest. "Always" is a long time (even for me) but, the first time (late 80s-ish?) I heard someone complain that they couldn't marry their (same sex) partner, my first words were: "That's fuckin' stoopit! Why the fuck not?" So, for as long as it's been an "issue" that I was aware of, I have felt this way, yes.

Your point about the government already having a stranglehold (on many things they shouldn't) is well taken but, just because "it's been this way for a while", is not a reason (in my mind) to not speak out against it.

ETA: I just re-read and realized I hadn't read or answered your question properly. I'm sorry.

Yes, from the earliest time I can remember (14? 15?), government involvement in what I thought should be religious things or matters of privacy, personal choice, or liberty has pissed me right off.



Peace and comfort,



Michael

< Message edited by DaddySatyr -- 3/13/2012 11:36:19 PM >

_____________________________

A Stone in My Shoe

Screen captures (and pissing on shadows) still RULE! Ya feel me?

"For that which I love, I will do horrible things"

(in reply to dcnovice)
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RE: A Republican Voice for Marriage Equality - 3/14/2012 12:25:44 AM   
Hippiekinkster


Posts: 5512
Joined: 11/20/2007
From: Liechtenstein
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59


quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

I've said it before. I'll say it, again: The government does not belong in the marriage business. It's really that simple.



Peace and comfort,



Michael

Your cop-out aside,marriage is a legal contract.....regulated,officiated and facilitated by government............like from the beginning of recorded time.

So now that we`ve established that government IS involved in the "marriage business".....they ought to enforce and apply the laws equally.

Unless you can explain why not....

You going cross-eyed again? He said "does not belong", not "is not involved". It's helpful to read what people actually write.

_____________________________

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“Nothing we do, however virtuous, can be accomplished alone; therefore we are saved by love.” Reinhold Ne

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RE: A Republican Voice for Marriage Equality - 3/14/2012 12:31:48 AM   
Hippiekinkster


Posts: 5512
Joined: 11/20/2007
From: Liechtenstein
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

Gee. Once again, you misinterpret me. Let me help you:

Marriage was originally a religious ritual. It was two people (sometimes more) standing before their god (or gods) and professing their love and their intent to spend their lives together.

The government has no place in that. It is a personal thing between/amongst two/or more people. Plain and simple. The government does not belong in the marriage business. It has not been ]a legal contract.....regulated,officiated and facilitated by government............like from the beginning of recorded time.[/color]" That's inaccurate.


You might want to check the Code of Hammurabi before you go making such blanket statements.

(in reply to DaddySatyr)
Profile   Post #: 14
RE: A Republican Voice for Marriage Equality - 3/14/2012 3:22:40 AM   
GrandPoobah


Posts: 120
Joined: 11/20/2008
Status: offline 		Michael and I might disagree about the history of marriage, but the fact remains that the "legal aspects" of marriage have become an important element of the ritual. What a specific church chooses to do has nothing much to do with those "legal" issues. For example, a church might allow people to re-marry after a divorce or spousal death...or they might not. Those positions have no legal standing beyond saying "you can't get married in this church."

Like it or not, the government is involved in marriage. Survivor rights, community property issues, and hundreds of other things hinge upon what the government says about it...not the church. Should it be that way? Opinions are 3 for a quarter, but as long as that remains true, it's an issue. Clearly those laws could be changed, or simply eliminated. However, some of them do bring a degree of usefulness to society. For example, who can speak for the wishes of an unconscious patient? A doctor needs to have some reasonable way to know who speaks for the person.

The concept of community property, while often abused, does provide some surety that a woman (traditionally it has been the woman) isn't simply tossed out if the male desires a divorce. Those laws are a mess, and even messier in the way they are applied, but they do begin to address equality issues.

I'm not sure we can completely removed the government from marriage, nor that we should actually try. Better would be to simply make the process as gender blind as possible. After hundreds of years we finally managed (in the US) to manage marriages between people of different races, so anything's possible. The process is way to slow...but at least it seems to be moving. And, relating to the original post, there are rational people in the GOP. Unfortunately the party has been largely hijacked by an extreme element, probably because they're loud and tired of being told they need to be more accepting of other's viewpoints. Bigotry is alive and well throughout the world.


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RE: A Republican Voice for Marriage Equality - 3/14/2012 4:03:12 AM   
YSG


Posts: 1001
Joined: 8/6/2010
Status: offline 		There actually IS a Constitutional case FOR gay marriage. Its called the 14th Amendment. Section 1 states, and I quote:

quote:

All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.


Im thinking this is what they're going to use when they finally get California's Prop 8 law to the SC.

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RE: A Republican Voice for Marriage Equality - 3/14/2012 5:45:34 AM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster


quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59


quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

I've said it before. I'll say it, again: The government does not belong in the marriage business. It's really that simple.



Peace and comfort,



Michael

Your cop-out aside,marriage is a legal contract.....regulated,officiated and facilitated by government............like from the beginning of recorded time.

So now that we`ve established that government IS involved in the "marriage business".....they ought to enforce and apply the laws equally.

Unless you can explain why not....

You going cross-eyed again? He said "does not belong", not "is not involved". It's helpful to read what people actually write.

My point was we`re way past ought.

_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

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RE: A Republican Voice for Marriage Equality - 3/14/2012 4:24:42 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
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quote:

Marriage was originally a religious ritual.


WAY before the Insane Christians decided to piss off G-d every time they prayed, us Jews knew what was what.

Traditional Jewish Marriage CONTRACT

So, don't fucking tell me about "Tradition"....

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