RE: Blending politics and religion (Full Version)

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dcnovice -> RE: Blending politics and religion (3/20/2012 7:09:13 PM)

<fr>

I think the relationship between politics and religion is much thornier and complex than the soundbites suggest.

Those of us on the left tend to forget that the antislavery and Civil Rights movements were saturated in religion and largely powered by people of faith. In South Africa, Desmond Tutu explicitly drew on Christian principles during his leadership of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission. His account of that work, No Future Without Forgiveness, is one of the most powerful things I've ever read.




TheHeretic -> RE: Blending politics and religion (3/20/2012 7:11:27 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

That was a sarcastic dig on how bush used to claim god talked to him.......


Not surprised it went right over your head......



Well, the other thread is still active, so I'm sure you'll be popping right over to provide a straight answer to the question then?





erieangel -> RE: Blending politics and religion (3/20/2012 7:25:14 PM)

It's not the question of whether somebody is a person of faith. What bothered me most about Bush was that he wore his faith on his sleeve. He even said on more than one occasion that God directed him to invade Iraq. Michelle Bachmann talked about praying to ask God if she should enter the Republican primary.

God sent an angel to tell Mary that she will give birth to His son, and yet people like that actually God is concerned about the course of politics in this country so much so that He speaks to them directly.

And then there is this: http://www.alternet.org/newsandviews/article/864955/%27muslims_%26_buddhists%3A_get_out!%27_says_preacher_applauded_by_santorum/#paragraph3

If you don’t love America, if you don’t like the way we do things, I have one thing to say — get out!”

“We don’t worship Buddha! I said we don’t worship Buddha, we don’t worship Muhammad, we don’t worship Allah, we worship God, we worship God’s son Jesus Christ.”


Santorum applauded this bile. He has forgotten that the "way we do things" in this country is to grant everybody the freedom of religion. Santorum may not worship Buddha, but some do and it is not an anti-American thing. Santorum may not worship Muhammad or Allah--but those who do are not anti-American. As for worshiping "God's son Jesus Christ"...If I remember my catechism correctly, Jesus warned against people worshiping him rather God.

I'd like to see the right wing justify this after their hate fest over Obama sitting in Wright's church, where Obama eventually spoke out against the rhetoric Wright preached...when Santorum is applauding even more vile rhetoric.





Owner59 -> RE: Blending politics and religion (3/20/2012 8:44:37 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

<fr>

I think the relationship between politics and religion is much thornier and complex than the soundbites suggest.

Those of us on the left tend to forget that the antislavery and Civil Rights movements were saturated in religion and largely powered by people of faith. In South Africa, Desmond Tutu explicitly drew on Christian principles during his leadership of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission. His account of that work, No Future Without Forgiveness, is one of the most powerful things I've ever read.

That`s a great point...

It`s impossible for us to divorce ourselves from of spirituality....and we shouldn`t try.....IMHO.

The issue that`s at the root of mixing politics and THE POWER OF BIG "G" GOVERNMENT is that both are power centers....one(governemnt)...with power over people`s lives and liberty and well-being,property and prosperity.....



And the other power center(religion) with power over people`s souls and their salvation,controlled my mere men(and women,occasionally)....



Now combine those two and almost every time.....people get hurt.

There may be times when a super concentration of power does good things but the potential for doing harm is also bigger.

And the two are diminished.....not improved.....by the mixing.....

It`s a toxic mix with no checks and balances.

This is why the FFs didn`t want the mixing......and why they rejected the Church Of England that was headed by the King of England.




Iamsemisweet -> RE: Blending politics and religion (3/20/2012 9:36:53 PM)

Historically, this is true. It seems to me that mainstream religion has become far less tolerant.

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

<fr>

I think the relationship between politics and religion is much thornier and complex than the soundbites suggest.

Those of us on the left tend to forget that the antislavery and Civil Rights movements were saturated in religion and largely powered by people of faith. In South Africa, Desmond Tutu explicitly drew on Christian principles during his leadership of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission. His account of that work, No Future Without Forgiveness, is one of the most powerful things I've ever read.




thishereboi -> RE: Blending politics and religion (3/21/2012 7:00:33 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

Can`t defend your party imposing their religion on others......in this case rape victims......or maybe you beleive "chuck" when he says women are "claiming" to have been raped to get an abortion?!

Your lack of words/thoughts is indicative.


My lack of words? You have proven over and over that you hate anything on the right and are willing to paint the entire party based on what individual members of the party do. Why would I bother trying to tell you anything. It would be like trying to teach a ball to bounce on it's own. You can say what ever you like and it will still just lay there and be a bigo.....errr ball.




thishereboi -> RE: Blending politics and religion (3/21/2012 7:04:44 AM)

quote:

It's not the question of whether somebody is a person of faith. What bothered me most about Bush was that he wore his faith on his sleeve. He even said on more than one occasion that God directed him to invade Iraq. Michelle Bachmann talked about praying to ask God if she should enter the Republican primary.


So they were bad because they said they turn to god before making major decisions, but it's ok that

"President Barack Obama said his Christian faith is a driving force behind his economic policies, from Wall Street reform to his calls for the wealthy to pay higher taxes."

The only difference I see between the two is the r or d attached to the name.

thanks for proving my point.





Iamsemisweet -> RE: Blending politics and religion (3/21/2012 7:50:23 AM)

Can you understand the difference between having Christian values that guide your life and believing you are talking to god directly, and he is telling you what to do? Probably a little subtle for you, boi, but think about it.
quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

quote:

It's not the question of whether somebody is a person of faith. What bothered me most about Bush was that he wore his faith on his sleeve. He even said on more than one occasion that God directed him to invade Iraq. Michelle Bachmann talked about praying to ask God if she should enter the Republican primary.


So they were bad because they said they turn to god before making major decisions, but it's ok that

"President Barack Obama said his Christian faith is a driving force behind his economic policies, from Wall Street reform to his calls for the wealthy to pay higher taxes."

The only difference I see between the two is the r or d attached to the name.

thanks for proving my point.






thishereboi -> RE: Blending politics and religion (3/21/2012 7:54:26 AM)

quote:

Can you understand the difference between having Christian values that guide your life and believing you are talking to god directly, and he is telling you what to do? Probably a little subtle for you, boi, but think about it.


Praying is talking to god directly. And why would it be a little subtle for me? What are you trying to imply without actually coming out and saying it?




farglebargle -> RE: Blending politics and religion (3/21/2012 8:11:58 AM)

quote:

Praying is talking to god directly.


The problem is with those who think that the voices in their heads are G-d talking back...




Iamsemisweet -> RE: Blending politics and religion (3/21/2012 8:13:04 AM)

That from what I can tell from these threads, you have a ham handed approach to both religion and politics.
Praying to god can be comforting to those who are so inclined. Thinking that it is a two way conversation is just insane and scary.




xssve -> RE: Blending politics and religion (3/21/2012 9:04:55 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

<fr>

I think the relationship between politics and religion is much thornier and complex than the soundbites suggest.

Those of us on the left tend to forget that the antislavery and Civil Rights movements were saturated in religion and largely powered by people of faith. In South Africa, Desmond Tutu explicitly drew on Christian principles during his leadership of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission. His account of that work, No Future Without Forgiveness, is one of the most powerful things I've ever read.

...and it cuts both ways: Southern churches broke with their Northern counterparts during reconstruction, grew exponentially until the sixties, while spreading throughout the West following public works programs during the depression while the Northern Churches shrank - the SBC, the largest and fastest growing, drafted "The Fundamentals", from which we derive the word "fundamentalists", but the Presbyterian, Methodist, and Lutheran churches split off as well.

Evangelical, exceptionalist and millennialist, they are the demographic George W. was speaking to in code, and the demographic the current republican front runners are fighting over - a candidate has to carry the South to win anymore, going back to Nixon - Every president since has been some species of Southern religion - Reagan was Assembly of God I believe, a Cali branch of Southern fundies, and he presaged (Methodist) Bush's "Axis of Evil" speech (codewords for the antichrist) in his "Empire of Evil" speech, and spoke portentously about "Wedgewood", by which most presume he meant "Wormwood", a reference to Revelations.

Again, there are liberals in the mix, but they tend to get marginalized by the holy rollers - Prop 8 passed by mobilizing large numbers of African-American Southern Baptist Church ladies, and most of the pro-prop 8 funding came from the Southern fundies, which peripherally includes the Mormons, although there is a bit of friction remaining there, as we saw early in Romney's campaign.

You really ought to read Kevin Phillips's American Theocracy to get an idea of just how complex the issue is.




Moonhead -> RE: Blending politics and religion (3/21/2012 9:34:13 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Iamsemisweet

That from what I can tell from these threads, you have a ham handed approach to both religion and politics.
Praying to god can be comforting to those who are so inclined. Thinking that it is a two way conversation is just insane and scary.

In fact, it should probably be a disqualifier from standing for any political office in a sane and rational society. These days we have another term for gnosis, after all: the shrinks call it "schizophrenia"...




dcnovice -> RE: Blending politics and religion (3/21/2012 5:47:38 PM)

quote:

You really ought to read Kevin Phillips's American Theocracy to get an idea of just how complex the issue is.


I'll check it out. Thanks for the heads-up!




Owner59 -> RE: Blending politics and religion (3/21/2012 5:51:38 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Iamsemisweet

That from what I can tell from these threads, you have a ham handed approach to both religion and politics.
Praying to god can be comforting to those who are so inclined. Thinking that it is a two way conversation is just insane and scary.

Thank you semisweet......

"Ham handed".......perfect.




Fightdirecto -> RE: Blending politics and religion (3/21/2012 8:47:30 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi
I have seen the hate start spewing whenever a repub implies he might be turning to god for guidance. I wonder if this will get the same reaction?
"He starts each morning with a brief prayer, then spends time reading scripture. Sometimes, he said, pastors come to the Oval Officer to pray with him, for his family and for the country."
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/02/02/obama-national-prayer-breakfast-speech_n_1249631.html


It is more likely to get the following reaction from the political Right:

"Every morning President Obama starts the day with a brief prayer to Allah, then spends time reading the Koran. Sometimes, he said, Christian pastors come to the Oval Officer to pray with him, for his family and for the country. This , of course, is all a smokescreen to hide the fact that President Obama is really a Muslim. In public, President Obama fakes being a Christian to hide his true religion, which is Islam."

[;)]




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