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The myth of endless economic growth - 3/21/2012 1:31:55 AM   
tweakabelle


Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline 		The debate about climate change has overshadowed other environmental challenges that face us. Can economic growth be sustained into the future indefinitely? Will the mix of climate changes, population explosion, limited resources, rapid development, land food and water shortages prove to be insurmountable? Ecomonic commentator Ross Gittins examines the options .....

"Do you ever wonder how the environment - the global ecosystem - will cope with the continuing growth in the world population plus the rapid economic development of China, India and various other ''emerging economies''? I do. And it's not a comforting thought."

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/politics/human-cost-of-inaction-incalculable-20120320-1vhrv.html

Your thoughts and responses .......






< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 3/21/2012 1:37:26 AM >

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RE: The myth of endless economic growth - 3/21/2012 4:00:58 AM   
joether


Posts: 5195
Joined: 7/24/2005
Status: offline 		The first problem is that a large number of people in the USA have very little understanding of Climate Change. They dont understand it well enough to explain exactly what the theory is if asked or quized about it. Further, of that percentage of the public, a decent sized group believes Climate Change (known to them as 'Global Warming') is falsed because there are scientists, paid by large energy companies that state such a scientific understanding is wholly false.

Add to that fact, that most people could not explain what the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act was suppose to do. Further, could not explain what this act was set up to prevent. Lastly on this particular issue, this group of people could not explain how to find this information out if they were quizzed even given the number of ways to find this information out presently available to said Americans. Now this Act's importance has nothing directly to do with Climate Change but serves as an example of something much larger (and as such, much more complex) for the average citizen to grasp: Economics.

So Tweakabelle. Your going to ask people to weigh in on two very complex concepts (that are combined) with which they know very little to none about, and give an educated thought(s) on how this piece of information translate into positive or negative long term economic growth for a desired country/planet. Why not just ask for the Cure for Cancer or give the chemical formula of turning Lead into Gold? That would be MUCH easier of a discussion....

The simple answer is "See the Complex Answer for Details".

The Complex Answer? Lets just say you could fill a Wal-Mart Superstore up to the brime of stacks of books and notes on the answer (assuming every stack was just 2cm from every other stack). Now, after you got all that done, and assuming your not now wearing a white jacket with long arms that tie in the back and in your own custom rubber padded cell.....

....Could you explain it all to the masses without sacrificing critical information that requires one to hold at least a BS/BA degree; when much of your audience holds at best, a high school diploma?

....Good Luck!

(in reply to tweakabelle)
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RE: The myth of endless economic growth - 3/21/2012 4:19:15 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		Will more people mean more needs? Will more people mean more hands available to work toward those needs?

That's economic growth.

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RE: The myth of endless economic growth - 3/21/2012 6:41:02 AM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Will more people mean more needs? Will more people mean more hands available to work toward those needs?

That's economic growth.


I think the trend is currently in place and quite visible. More people will mean more needs/wants but they will continue to be unable to afford those needs because the allocation of wealth will always be asymetrical. The rich get richer and the poor stay poor as a class. It is true that Capitalism has provided opportunities for individuals to rise up out of poverty. But the "poor will always be with us." In Capitalist societies economic growth is very selective because greed is controlled by those who have the power to persuade the governing class. Trickle down has been a delusion. Capitalism works because it exploits labor and natural resources to make a bunch of shit and then persuade people to think they want it.

The world is teeming with a growing, overpopulated, impoverished, unemployed cohort of 16-35 year old males in the southern continents, destined to live their lives in want and rebellion.

On the other hand the great experiments in Socialism seem to have failed. So, no answer there.

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RE: The myth of endless economic growth - 3/21/2012 7:18:43 AM   
MrRodgers


Posts: 10542
Joined: 7/30/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Will more people mean more needs? Will more people mean more hands available to work toward those needs?

That's economic growth.


I think the trend is currently in place and quite visible. More people will mean more needs/wants but they will continue to be unable to afford those needs because the allocation of wealth will always be asymetrical. The rich get richer and the poor stay poor as a class. It is true that Capitalism has provided opportunities for individuals to rise up out of poverty. But the "poor will always be with us." In Capitalist societies economic growth is very selective because greed is controlled by those who have the power to persuade the governing class. Trickle down has been a delusion. Capitalism works because it exploits labor and natural resources to make a bunch of shit and then persuade people to think they want it.

The world is teeming with a growing, overpopulated, impoverished, unemployed cohort of 16-35 year old males in the southern continents, destined to live their lives in want and rebellion.

On the other hand the great experiments in Socialism seem to have failed. So, no answer there.

Except for a few things. One is, I don't need science to tell me that lakes in Canada that didn't freeze in winter 3 times in 100 years, that have now failed to freeze 18 times in the last 30 years...all I need is a calender.

I don't need science to tell me why a repub governor complains that his pine trees are dying because the sea is rising, all I need...is a ruler.

Then it is the free market that has been a success...NOT capitalism.

Capitalism as in 'moneyism' or 'paperism' is turning paper into money, i.e., stocks, bonds, futures CDO's, hedging and trying to turn that...into somebody else's money. Capitalism is risking somebody else's money to make ME money and the goal, become too much in debt in my greed to make sure I become too big to fail...doing it.

Lastly, socialism as an actual form of govt....has NEVER existed anywhere in the world. Thus, nobody can tell me...it hasn't worked.

Oh and as for people, demand and economy ? We have and are adding millions more poor to the world every year. 37,000 children worldwide, die from starvation every day. 45,000 Americans of all ages are dying of curable diseases every year.

< Message edited by MrRodgers -- 3/21/2012 7:25:25 AM >

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RE: The myth of endless economic growth - 3/21/2012 7:38:53 AM   
Iamsemisweet


Posts: 3651
Joined: 4/9/2011
From: The Great Northwest, USA
Status: offline 		Any ecosystem has a population that it can sustain. We have reached ours and probably passed it. I fail to see how a population of 10 billion will be sustainable or productive. What we will have is a minority hanging on to their resource sucking lifestyle, and the vast majority living in not so quiet desperation. Meanwhile, the natural world, the thing that made this world beautiful, will be completely consumed.

It is a very painful thing to watch for those of us who value species other than human beings and worship things besides the dollar. I am actually glad I won't be alive to see it come to pass.

_____________________________

Alice: But I don't want to go among mad people.
The Cat: Oh, you can't help that. We're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.
Alice: How do you know I'm mad?
The Cat: You must be. Or you wouldn't have come here.

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RE: The myth of endless economic growth - 3/21/2012 8:11:51 AM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Iamsemisweet
Any ecosystem has a population that it can sustain. We have reached ours and probably passed it. I fail to see how a population of 10 billion will be sustainable or productive. What we will have is a minority hanging on to their resource sucking lifestyle, and the vast majority living in not so quiet desperation. Meanwhile, the natural world, the thing that made this world beautiful, will be completely consumed.
It is a very painful thing to watch for those of us who value species other than human beings and worship things besides the dollar. I am actually glad I won't be alive to see it come to pass.


What, then, is the answer? If we accept your assumption of having reached ours (without accepting we've passed it), are we simply fucked, or is there something that can be done? Let's say the Illuminati conspiracies are true and they take over the world tomorrow. They choose you to be Sir Lord Emperor of Earth, bestowing upon you all power and authority. Then, they gather a meeting with you and say, "Oh, by the way, since you're new here and all, we thought we'd just let you know that the Earth can not handle more human population. You need to fix it.

What is your first move?

_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

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RE: The myth of endless economic growth - 3/21/2012 8:20:56 AM   
tj444


Posts: 7574
Joined: 3/7/2010
Status: offline 		I see the next 40 years as being a continual extension of what has gone on in the last 40.. When I was a little kid, my mother would tell me to clean my plate because there are children in Africa that are starving.. that has not changed and unfortunately it wont change..

One thing i do see changing over the next 10, 20 or so years is that the US will cease to be the super power it is today.. I think China will surpass it and India and other countries will be a bigger force in the future.. the US will eventually be on par with the UK as far as the world goes.. and the power the US wields.. jmo although there are various studies that have said basically the same thing..

As far as global warming goes.. it is global which means countries that are developing do so by causing pollution.. 25% of the pollution that hangs over Los Angeles is from China.. Its pretty hard to dictate to other countries how they consume coal, oil, gas, minerals, etc.. China is pushing electric vehicles and while that sounds all good on the surface,... the electricity those vehicles use comes mostly from burning coal and that is pollution causing.. so do those electric vehicles help or hurt as far as pollution goes?..

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RE: The myth of endless economic growth - 3/21/2012 8:22:48 AM   
Iamsemisweet


Posts: 3651
Joined: 4/9/2011
From: The Great Northwest, USA
Status: offline 		Enact Agenda 21.
My actual plan, though, is to be dead before everything that made the world beautiful to me is gone.
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: Iamsemisweet
Any ecosystem has a population that it can sustain. We have reached ours and probably passed it. I fail to see how a population of 10 billion will be sustainable or productive. What we will have is a minority hanging on to their resource sucking lifestyle, and the vast majority living in not so quiet desperation. Meanwhile, the natural world, the thing that made this world beautiful, will be completely consumed.
It is a very painful thing to watch for those of us who value species other than human beings and worship things besides the dollar. I am actually glad I won't be alive to see it come to pass.


What, then, is the answer? If we accept your assumption of having reached ours (without accepting we've passed it), are we simply fucked, or is there something that can be done? Let's say the Illuminati conspiracies are true and they take over the world tomorrow. They choose you to be Sir Lord Emperor of Earth, bestowing upon you all power and authority. Then, they gather a meeting with you and say, "Oh, by the way, since you're new here and all, we thought we'd just let you know that the Earth can not handle more human population. You need to fix it.

What is your first move?


_____________________________

Alice: But I don't want to go among mad people.
The Cat: Oh, you can't help that. We're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.
Alice: How do you know I'm mad?
The Cat: You must be. Or you wouldn't have come here.

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
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RE: The myth of endless economic growth - 3/21/2012 8:32:57 AM   
Arturas


Posts: 3245
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

The debate about climate change has overshadowed other environmental challenges that face us. Can economic growth be sustained into the future indefinitely? Will the mix of climate changes, population explosion, limited resources, rapid development, land food and water shortages prove to be insurmountable? Ecomonic commentator Ross Gittins examines the options .....

"Do you ever wonder how the environment - the global ecosystem - will cope with the continuing growth in the world population plus the rapid economic development of China, India and various other ''emerging economies''? I do. And it's not a comforting thought."

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/politics/human-cost-of-inaction-incalculable-20120320-1vhrv.html

Your thoughts and responses .......








I've seen the graph on world population growth. It seems to me the growth took off after WWII and rose sharply after technology and world peace fostered a greater sense of well being in the overall world population and resources were exploited with techology to support more people so women as a whole were more secure and optimistic therefore had more babies.

This population growth rate is leveling off in recent years. In other words, the growth rate in terms of how fast population increases year by year peaked several years ago. This means something has triggered a slowing of population growth by making women less secure and optimistic and they still have babies but have fewer of them and wait later to have them. So, I suspect this is something nature is triggering in the women and suggest the growth will actually level off till we no longer grow in population and even reduce birth rates and go the other way if resources do likewise.

So, I am optimistic man can not screw this up because he does not control this. Don't worry, be happy.

_____________________________

"We master Our world."

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RE: The myth of endless economic growth - 3/21/2012 8:49:29 AM   
LoreBook


Posts: 257
Joined: 2/22/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: joether

The first problem is that a large number of people in the USA have very little understanding of Climate Change. They dont understand it well enough to explain exactly what the theory is if asked or quized about it. Further, of that percentage of the public, a decent sized group believes Climate Change (known to them as 'Global Warming') is falsed because there are scientists, paid by large energy companies that state such a scientific understanding is wholly false.

Add to that fact, that most people could not explain what the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act was suppose to do. Further, could not explain what this act was set up to prevent. Lastly on this particular issue, this group of people could not explain how to find this information out if they were quizzed even given the number of ways to find this information out presently available to said Americans. Now this Act's importance has nothing directly to do with Climate Change but serves as an example of something much larger (and as such, much more complex) for the average citizen to grasp: Economics.

So Tweakabelle. Your going to ask people to weigh in on two very complex concepts (that are combined) with which they know very little to none about, and give an educated thought(s) on how this piece of information translate into positive or negative long term economic growth for a desired country/planet. Why not just ask for the Cure for Cancer or give the chemical formula of turning Lead into Gold? That would be MUCH easier of a discussion....

The simple answer is "See the Complex Answer for Details".

The Complex Answer? Lets just say you could fill a Wal-Mart Superstore up to the brime of stacks of books and notes on the answer (assuming every stack was just 2cm from every other stack). Now, after you got all that done, and assuming your not now wearing a white jacket with long arms that tie in the back and in your own custom rubber padded cell.....

....Could you explain it all to the masses without sacrificing critical information that requires one to hold at least a BS/BA degree; when much of your audience holds at best, a high school diploma?

....Good Luck!
In other words, you're one of those "most people".

I think economic growth can be endless, its the rate of growth that isn't sustainable.

The preceding statement represents the views and opinions of the author and the author alone, and should in no way be considered an attempt by the author to define or determine anything for anybody but herself.

< Message edited by LoreBook -- 3/21/2012 8:50:10 AM >

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RE: The myth of endless economic growth - 3/21/2012 9:07:28 AM   
defiantbadgirl


Posts: 2988
Joined: 11/14/2005
Status: offline 		When maximum carrying capacity is exceeded, sudden decline or death results. If all immigration could be stopped, countries with out of control population growth would be forced to do something about it or die off.

_____________________________


Only in the United States is the health of the people secondary to making money. If this is what "capitalism" is about, I'll take socialism any day of the week.


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RE: The myth of endless economic growth - 3/21/2012 9:09:38 AM   
xssve


Posts: 3589
Joined: 10/10/2009
Status: offline 		No, not if history is any indication.

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Walking nightmare...

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RE: The myth of endless economic growth - 3/21/2012 9:12:44 AM   
Kainundeva


Posts: 79
Joined: 2/12/2012
Status: offline 		economic growth is working because things are tending to be built shittier and shittier and have to be replaced in shorter terms... and get thrown away even if they are still good.
economic growth will be at a standstill when you HAVE TO buy a new car every year. then that was it.
OR there is a fashion developing that people simply don´t buy new things if they don´t need them. could be. looks like more and more people start to think about that.

i am driving a 23 years old mercedes which is running like a breeze, my stereo system is 30 years old, even my tv still has a tube... and is working. there simply is no need for buying new things if you don´t need them. i am not missing anything... instead i work a bit less than i could and use the time for sex, creative stuff, travelling, chilling out in general...
but it took me a few years to come that far, been a real consumption junkie before...

< Message edited by Kainundeva -- 3/21/2012 9:13:45 AM >

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RE: The myth of endless economic growth - 3/21/2012 11:27:51 AM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
Status: offline
quote:

The debate about climate change has overshadowed other environmental challenges that face us. Can economic growth be sustained into the future indefinitely? Will the mix of climate changes, population explosion, limited resources, rapid development, land food and water shortages prove to be insurmountable? Ecomonic commentator Ross Gittins examines the options .....


The nexus of the article can be found in this line about the United Nations report: "The report's implicit assumption is there are policies we could pursue that made population growth and rising material living standards compatible with environmental sustainability." The conundrum is that three opposing forces are cited and there are solutions implied when in fact there are no solutions available, and if there were any there would be no authority to enforce those solutions. Who can slow economic activity? And while that might have a benefit for the environment what might the impact be on population? Who can stop population growth? And by what method? Well, the Malthusian answer would be the counter forces of war and disease. Really, Thomas seems to have had the only workable solution. On the other hand societies could produce soylent green wafers

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RE: The myth of endless economic growth - 3/21/2012 11:43:12 AM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
Status: offline
quote:

Except for a few things. One is, I don't need science to tell me that lakes in Canada that didn't freeze in winter 3 times in 100 years, that have now failed to freeze 18 times in the last 30 years...all I need is a calender.

I don't need science to tell me why a repub governor complains that his pine trees are dying because the sea is rising, all I need...is a ruler.


With respect, isn't this just a restatement of the environmental problem which I did not contest in my reply above?

quote:

Then it is the free market that has been a success...NOT capitalism. Capitalism as in 'moneyism' or 'paperism' is turning paper into money, i.e., stocks, bonds, futures CDO's, hedging and trying to turn that...into somebody else's money. Capitalism is risking somebody else's money to make ME money and the goal, become too much in debt in my greed to make sure I become too big to fail...doing it.


Well, there are no free markets in socialism. And your definition of Capitalism includes speculation. Nevertheless, Capitalism can be defined as the allocation of capital through more or less free markets. Stocks, bonds, futures contracts are all vehicles for that process. Will you forbid the farmer the right to hedge the value of his crop or against the cost of fuel with futures contracts?

quote:

Lastly, socialism as an actual form of govt....has NEVER existed anywhere in the world. Thus, nobody can tell me...it hasn't worked.


Perhaps you can clarify my bewilderment. What is socialism as an actual form of governement?

quote:

Oh and as for people, demand and economy ? We have and are adding millions more poor to the world every year. 37,000 children worldwide, die from starvation every day. 45,000 Americans of all ages are dying of curable diseases every year.


I made a similar point above. *shrugs*

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RE: The myth of endless economic growth - 3/21/2012 12:10:47 PM   
masterofholly


Posts: 197
Joined: 9/26/2007
Status: offline
quote:

So, I am optimistic man can not screw this up because he does not control this
It's about fucking time you admit there are things you don't control.

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RE: The myth of endless economic growth - 3/21/2012 12:15:05 PM   
LaTigresse


Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: defiantbadgirl

When maximum carrying capacity is exceeded, sudden decline or death results. If all immigration could be stopped, countries with out of control population growth would be forced to do something about it or die off.


I shall travel back in time and tell your ancestors to get back to where they belong and either die or suck it up. We don't want no stinking whiny immigrants that feel anyone owes them anything.

_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

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RE: The myth of endless economic growth - 3/21/2012 12:24:35 PM   
subfever


Posts: 2895
Joined: 5/22/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: Iamsemisweet
Any ecosystem has a population that it can sustain. We have reached ours and probably passed it. I fail to see how a population of 10 billion will be sustainable or productive. What we will have is a minority hanging on to their resource sucking lifestyle, and the vast majority living in not so quiet desperation. Meanwhile, the natural world, the thing that made this world beautiful, will be completely consumed.
It is a very painful thing to watch for those of us who value species other than human beings and worship things besides the dollar. I am actually glad I won't be alive to see it come to pass.


What, then, is the answer? If we accept your assumption of having reached ours (without accepting we've passed it), are we simply fucked, or is there something that can be done? Let's say the Illuminati conspiracies are true and they take over the world tomorrow. They choose you to be Sir Lord Emperor of Earth, bestowing upon you all power and authority. Then, they gather a meeting with you and say, "Oh, by the way, since you're new here and all, we thought we'd just let you know that the Earth can not handle more human population. You need to fix it.

What is your first move?


A resource-based economy, and a relevant education for all.

The goal? Evolve beyond money, politics, and war. Humanity and Earth will then both heal and thrive.

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: The myth of endless economic growth - 3/21/2012 12:36:53 PM   
MrRodgers


Posts: 10542
Joined: 7/30/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML


quote:

Except for a few things. One is, I don't need science to tell me that lakes in Canada that didn't freeze in winter 3 times in 100 years, that have now failed to freeze 18 times in the last 30 years...all I need is a calender.

I don't need science to tell me why a repub governor complains that his pine trees are dying because the sea is rising, all I need...is a ruler.


With respect, isn't this just a restatement of the environmental problem which I did not contest in my reply above?

quote:

Then it is the free market that has been a success...NOT capitalism. Capitalism as in 'moneyism' or 'paperism' is turning paper into money, i.e., stocks, bonds, futures CDO's, hedging and trying to turn that...into somebody else's money. Capitalism is risking somebody else's money to make ME money and the goal, become too much in debt in my greed to make sure I become too big to fail...doing it.


Well, there are no free markets in socialism. And your definition of Capitalism includes speculation. Nevertheless, Capitalism can be defined as the allocation of capital through more or less free markets. Stocks, bonds, futures contracts are all vehicles for that process. Will you forbid the farmer the right to hedge the value of his crop or against the cost of fuel with futures contracts?

quote:

Lastly, socialism as an actual form of govt....has NEVER existed anywhere in the world. Thus, nobody can tell me...it hasn't worked.


Perhaps you can clarify my bewilderment. What is socialism as an actual form of governement?

quote:

Oh and as for people, demand and economy ? We have and are adding millions more poor to the world every year. 37,000 children worldwide, die from starvation every day. 45,000 Americans of all ages are dying of curable diseases every year.


I made a similar point above. *shrugs*

There are more likely much freer markets under socialism because of direct govt. involvement, rather than private greed and risk taking and particularly with other people's money. The capitalist has very successfully avoided or neutered anti-trust laws with all of that free speech (money) to invest in govt. and are very successfully enjoying a great return on that investment by successfully narrowing or monopolizing markets. Capitalism is the organizing of capital for the purposes of speculation and little more at all. So yes, capitalism is almost ALL speculation and...does NOT serve society at large.

People for some reason think that everything done in our economy is 'capitalism.' It is not.

Almost all of what you see is the free market in action. It would be nice to think the best of this is attributable to 'capitalism' but it can not. As I've written, most of our economy would be unchanged without wall street and the big investment banks. They do NOT serve society at all. They merely create a piece of paper upon which to speculate and in some cases even manipulate markets, all with the goal of selling paper for somebody else's money.

Socialism whether the partisan puppets and lemmings think they know or not...IS the govt. OWNERSHIP of the means of production...period. All that means is that the govt. could choose if voted upon to own a piece of say Microsoft (stock, private or public) and thus have a measure of control, NOT complete control of any means of production. It is simply ownership and some board control but not complete control.

Almost all you hear or read about so-called socialism is false and is demagoguery (lies) and out of the greed of what we really have...almost laissez faire capitalism. I.e., unregulated and kinkroids TRUST ME on this...there WILL be yet another bailout. The new regulations on wall street wouldn't stop a rookie. They are still leveraging, speculating and pretty much gambling on our future.

The only reason any producers hedge now is directly is because of speculation by non-producers that distort the real market.

(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 20
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