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RE: Christian Privilege: What Is It? Does It Exist? - 3/23/2012 10:08:10 AM   
Arturas


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead


quote:

ORIGINAL: Arturas
It's not that complicated that it need such a debate.

Apparently it is if you're capable of stating nonsense like this:
quote:

The Declaration of Independence dates to 1776 and is clearly derived from a faith and obedience to the Almighty.

With a straight face.

The declaration of independence was signed because the American colonies did not want to be ruled by George II, who (unlike your founding fathers) claimed to rule through a mandate from God.
If your country was founded on the notion of subservience to the almighty, you'd still be paying tea tax.


I did not say this. The Declaration of Independence says this. I just read it.

To insult me directly or the Declaration of Independence indirectly simply suggest to me that you cannot make any argument without making insult and that I should ignore you from now on. Things are more simple than many here would like to believe! I wish you well.

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RE: Christian Privilege: What Is It? Does It Exist? - 3/23/2012 10:09:02 AM   
Moonhead


Posts: 16520
Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline 		If you seriously think that was an insult, I suggest that you need to get out more.

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(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to Arturas)
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RE: Christian Privilege: What Is It? Does It Exist? - 3/23/2012 10:20:23 AM   
Moonhead


Posts: 16520
Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline 		Or you could try to address the argument, instead of whining about other people who've done a better job of that than you've managed failing to do so. It isn't like anybody else is accepting your statement that the States was founded as a Christian country because "In God we Trust " was added to the banknotes during the McCarthy scare.

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

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RE: Christian Privilege: What Is It? Does It Exist? - 3/23/2012 10:21:50 AM   
DaddySatyr


Posts: 9381
Joined: 8/29/2011
From: Pittston, Pennsyltucky
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Arturas


quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead


quote:

ORIGINAL: Arturas
It's not that complicated that it need such a debate.

Apparently it is if you're capable of stating nonsense like this:
quote:

The Declaration of Independence dates to 1776 and is clearly derived from a faith and obedience to the Almighty.

With a straight face.

The declaration of independence was signed because the American colonies did not want to be ruled by George II III, who (unlike your founding fathers) claimed to rule through a mandate from God.
If your country was founded on the notion of subservience to the almighty, you'd still be paying tea tax.




_____________________________

A Stone in My Shoe

Screen captures (and pissing on shadows) still RULE! Ya feel me?

"For that which I love, I will do horrible things"

(in reply to Arturas)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Christian Privilege: What Is It? Does It Exist? - 3/23/2012 10:23:02 AM   
Moonhead


Posts: 16520
Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline 		Mea culpa. I can never remember which George was which.

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to DaddySatyr)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Christian Privilege: What Is It? Does It Exist? - 3/23/2012 10:35:34 AM   
Fightdirecto


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Joined: 8/3/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arturas
The Declaration of Independence dates to 1776 and is clearly derived from a faith and obedience to the Almighty.

If you wish to "play the Founding Fathers game", let's go back earlier than Mr. Jefferson's Declaration (a letter justifying revolution, but not a framework for laws).

quote:

An enforced uniformity of religion throughout a nation or civil state, confounds the civil and religious, denies the principles of Christianity and civility, and that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh.

- Roger Williams (founder of First Baptist Church in America), The Bloody Tenet of Persecution for Cause of Conscience - 1644


132 years before Mr. Jefferson's Declaration, one of our Founding Fathers clearly expressed the Christian belief that any "nation or civil state" violates "the principles of Christianity" if it claims to be a "Christian Nation" and denies the principle of religious freedom and religious tolerance.

And what of these other Founding Fathers (all early leaders of the Baptist Church in pre-Revolutionary War America and the post-Revolutionary War United States)

quote:

Religious matters are to be separated from the jurisdiction of the state, not because they are beneath the interests of the state but, quite to the contrary, because they are too high and holy and thus are beyond the competence of the state.

God has appointed two kinds of government in the world, which are distinct in their nature, and ought never to be confounded together; one of which is called civil, the other ecclesiastical government.

- Isaac Backus, colonial Baptist from New England, An Appeal to the Public for Religious Liberty - 1773


quote:

The notion of a Christian commonwealth should be exploded forever...Government should protect every man in thinking and speaking freely, and see that one does not abuse another. The liberty I contend for is more than toleration. The very idea of toleration is despicable; it supposes that some have a pre-eminence above the rest to grant indulgence, whereas all should be equally free, Jews, Turks, Pagans and Christians.

- John Leland, "A Chronicle of His Time in Virginia," - 1790


quote:

Is conformity of sentiments in matters of religion essential to the happiness of civil government? Not at all. Government has no more to do with the religious opinions of men than it has with the principles of mathematics. Let every man speak freely without fear--maintain the principles that he believes--worship according to his own faith, either one God, three Gods, no God, or twenty Gods; and let government protect him in so doing, i.e., see that he meets with no personal abuse or loss of property for his religious opinions. Instead of discouraging him with proscriptions, fines, confiscation or death, let him be encouraged, as a free man, to bring forth his arguments and maintain his points with all boldness; then if his doctrine is false it will be confuted, and if it is true (though ever so novel) let others credit it. When every man has this liberty what can he wish for more? A liberal man asks for nothing more of government.

Experience...has informed us that the fondness of magistrates to foster Christianity has done it more harm than all the persecutions ever did.

- John Leland, "Right of Conscience Inalienable, and Therefore, Religious Opinions Not Cognizable By The Law," - 1791


Of course, you may claim that all these Founding Fathers were not REALLY Christians - just members of a sub-set of atheists known as Baptists

< Message edited by Fightdirecto -- 3/23/2012 10:37:09 AM >

_____________________________

"I swore never to be silent whenever and wherever human beings endure suffering and humiliation. We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.””
- Ellie Wiesel

(in reply to Arturas)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Christian Privilege: What Is It? Does It Exist? - 3/23/2012 10:40:10 AM   
Moonhead


Posts: 16520
Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline 		Idolators, not atheists, m8...

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to Fightdirecto)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Christian Privilege: What Is It? Does It Exist? - 3/23/2012 10:41:16 AM   
DaddySatyr


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Joined: 8/29/2011
From: Pittston, Pennsyltucky
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Fightdirecto
quote:

Religious matters are to be separated from the jurisdiction of the state, not because they are beneath the interests of the state but, quite to the contrary, because they are too high and holy and thus are beyond the competence of the state.



An interesting quote, if we apply it to the current BC and other issues of today. If you support this, how can you support the government mandating that a religion do anything?

" ... separated from the jurisdiction of the state ..."

That would mean that the state has no control over a religion. So, which is it you support?



Peace and comfort,



Michael

_____________________________

A Stone in My Shoe

Screen captures (and pissing on shadows) still RULE! Ya feel me?

"For that which I love, I will do horrible things"

(in reply to Fightdirecto)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Christian Privilege: What Is It? Does It Exist? - 3/23/2012 10:50:18 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		Say I belong to the religion Kali, and I want to cakk you.  What corner of the earth should the state retire to?  

Clearly the statement means 'in rem jurisdiction'.

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RE: Christian Privilege: What Is It? Does It Exist? - 3/23/2012 12:07:38 PM   
GotSteel


Posts: 5871
Joined: 2/19/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Arturas
The statement "this country was founded on Christian principles" is correct. Just read your dollar bill.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Arturas
It's not that complicated that it need such a debate. The Declaration of Independence dates to 1776 and is clearly derived from a faith and obedience to the Almighty. See my post on this or the actual full text if you please.

Debate over.


Yes the debate is over, you've compellingly demonstrated that Christian Privilege exists multiple times in the last two pages.

(in reply to Arturas)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: Christian Privilege: What Is It? Does It Exist? - 3/23/2012 12:26:52 PM   
Fightdirecto


Posts: 1101
Joined: 8/3/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr
That would mean that the state has no control over a religion. So, which is it you support?
Peace and comfort,
Michael

I support Freedom Of Religon and Freedom From Religion - which, IMO, are not mutually exclusive.

To paraphrase the philosopher Thomas Hobbs: We need government to protect ourselves from each other.

The state has an obligation to prevent followers of any religion from oppressing/victimizing/harming minor children, members of any other religion or people who have no religion at all.

If followers of a religion refrain from oppressing/victimizing/harming minor children, members of any other religion or people who have no religion at all, the state should keep hands off.

_____________________________

"I swore never to be silent whenever and wherever human beings endure suffering and humiliation. We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.””
- Ellie Wiesel

(in reply to DaddySatyr)
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RE: Christian Privilege: What Is It? Does It Exist? - 3/23/2012 3:19:09 PM   
cloudboy


Posts: 7306
Joined: 12/14/2005
Status: offline
Well said.

P.S. Good info in your journal about Las Vegas. We just stayed at the Wynn.

My problem with Aria is that I see City Center as a Las Vegas blight, bringing corporate architecture to what I prefer as upscale funky-town. City Center also usurped views for itself while blocking out what I'd prefer to see. Maybe this is just me refusing to roll with the times.

Inside, I'm sure Aria was the shit.

(in reply to PatrickG38)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Christian Privilege: What Is It? Does It Exist? - 3/23/2012 5:15:10 PM   
dcnovice


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Joined: 8/2/2006
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quote:

That would mean that the state has no control over a religion.


At first reading, that sounded great.

But then it struck me that we actually do live with some state control of religion. Mormons (or Muslims) can't have multiple wives in the U.S., and I don't think we'd be too pleased if ultra-Orthodox Jews stoned someone for violating the Holiness Code.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to DaddySatyr)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Christian Privilege: What Is It? Does It Exist? - 3/23/2012 10:51:02 PM   
xssve


Posts: 3589
Joined: 10/10/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fightdirecto
quote:

Religious matters are to be separated from the jurisdiction of the state, not because they are beneath the interests of the state but, quite to the contrary, because they are too high and holy and thus are beyond the competence of the state.



An interesting quote, if we apply it to the current BC and other issues of today. If you support this, how can you support the government mandating that a religion do anything?

" ... separated from the jurisdiction of the state ..."

That would mean that the state has no control over a religion. So, which is it you support?



Peace and comfort,



Michael

It isn't mandating religion, it' mandating standards in insurance coverage. Religion shouldn't be held to the same standards as any one else?

This is what happens when a religion becomes a business - you don't like it? Stop being a business and go back to being a religion.

_____________________________

Walking nightmare...

(in reply to DaddySatyr)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Christian Privilege: What Is It? Does It Exist? - 3/23/2012 10:55:33 PM   
xssve


Posts: 3589
Joined: 10/10/2009
Status: offline 		There is a civil code, and there is/are a moral code/s - the latter does not excuse you from your obligations to the former - pretty sure we fought One war over that already. Two, if you count the Mormon War.

Render unto Caesar.

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RE: Christian Privilege: What Is It? Does It Exist? - 3/24/2012 8:35:13 AM   
dcnovice


Posts: 37282
Joined: 8/2/2006
Status: offline 		Interesting perspective on "Christian Persecution Complex."

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to xssve)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: Christian Privilege: What Is It? Does It Exist? - 3/24/2012 8:46:18 AM   
MrBukani


Posts: 1920
Joined: 4/18/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

Interesting perspective on "Christian Persecution Complex."

LOL, the christian grinch stole christmas from the good ol celts, it used to be the feast of light.
Hence the christmas tree. Think it was 21 december the shortest day.
Anyway I am glad its a heretic party. Scolars dont even believe this was the date jesus was born, something to do with starallignment and his zodiac sign.
Whatever, thanks for the link I am reading it.

(in reply to dcnovice)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: Christian Privilege: What Is It? Does It Exist? - 3/24/2012 10:07:38 AM   
xssve


Posts: 3589
Joined: 10/10/2009
Status: offline 		I think Zimmerman is pretty much a perfect metaphor for the whole right at this point: go out of your way to attack somebody, keep pushing it, and when they push back, play the victim.

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RE: Christian Privilege: What Is It? Does It Exist? - 3/24/2012 1:41:50 PM   
kalikshama


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Joined: 8/8/2010
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quote:

Say I belong to the religion Kali, and I want to cakk you.


You called?

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Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Christian Privilege: What Is It? Does It Exist? - 3/24/2012 1:47:51 PM   
kalikshama


Posts: 14805
Joined: 8/8/2010
Status: offline 		Good link dc. For those who don't click:

http://www.oregonherald.com/n/radicalruss/20051209_christian-persecution-complex.html

...When you have Christian Persecution Complex, you see every judicial decision, every cultural change, and every constitutional challenge to the status quo of entrenched Christian superiority as a war on Christianity. They cannot see the difference between "a Christian nation" and "a secular nation with a Christian majority". Since they are the majority, they seem to think that American culture and law should bend itself to their religious beliefs. They'll talk about the "tyranny of the minority" when issues like gay marriage or school prayer are decided by the courts. They'll scream that we're trying to "excise God like a cancer" if we (you know, "the left") argue that posting Ten Commandments in courthouses, In God We Trust on money, or forcing schoolchildren to recite under God during the Pledge of Allegiance is unconstitutional (somehow, all three are merely ceremonial deism - not religion - but the fundies defend them as if it meant more than that.) When we defend women's abortion rights, they'll claim that we had to "cheat" by taking the fight to the courts, because we can't accomplish our ends through the democratic political process. When we work to see gay people attain full citizenship in this country, we're accused of "shoving the gay agenda down people's throats".

The persecuted Christian meme always cracks me up. The "tyranny of the minority" line especially. The Constitution is all about majority rule with respect for minority rights. One of those minority rights is the free exercise of religion or the freedom from religion with a government neutral to religion so as to prevent state endorsement of one faith or state persecution of another. What the persecuted Christians are advocating, with their lines about getting next to nothing through the democratic political process, is the idea of tyranny of the majority. The majority is Christian, therefore government should espouse Christianity. The majority thinks there should be prayer in schools, so be it. The majority thinks gay marriage is wrong, so gays should be treated as second-class citizens. Well, the majority also thought women shouldn't vote, alcohol should be federally prohibited, and blacks shouldn't integrate with white society, too.

And woe to the poor persecuted Christians, what with their big-ass lighted crosses overlooking many American cities (like my hometown of Boise), little crosses along nearly every roadside where a Christian has wrecked (why are Christians such bad drivers, anyway? I never see any Stars of David or Buddhas marking roadside crash sites), a church steeple every four blocks, massive scripture readerboards alongside the federal highway system, federal holidays marking the birth of your savior (why don't we get Mohammed's birthday as a day off?), almost every calendar made indicates your religious holidays, your holy book in every hotel room, TV shows like "Reba", "Touched by an Angel", "Three Wishes", "7th Heaven" and other very Christian-friendly shows on network TV, worldwide Christian broadcast channels, popular musicians and sports figures giving "shout-outs" to Jesus at every awards show, your holy symbol is a popular piece of jewelry worn by many, missionaries knocking on doors and leaving little Jesus pamphlets in phone books, no politician can ever hope to be elected to national office without at least lip service to your religion (no atheist stands a chance in politics, because he won't affirm the popular superstitions), your Bible stories are inextricably woven into the fabric of our culture, popular newsmagazines like Time and Newsweek devoting cover stories to Jesus, popular broadcast TV news shows running specials on Christian issues (Barbara Walters' next special is about Heaven) and you've still got (in my opinion, unconstitutionally) prayers by chaplains to begin Congress, oaths sworn in court on your holy book, recognition of your deity on the currency, your Ten Commandments still displayed (in a limited fashion) around courthouses, and the leader of the country claiming he's ordained by God. Christians complaining about persecution in America are like white college males complaining there's no White Student Union on campus.

(in reply to dcnovice)
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