Rape. Under reported or over reported?

Rape. Under reported or over reported? (Full Version)

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MsMacComb -> Rape. Under reported or over reported? (6/3/2006 11:18:40 PM)
http://www.ipt-forensics.com/journal/volume10/j10_3_6_13.htm I have often wondered about the little sayings that people repeat over and over like sheep without ever questioning the logic, or lack of, behind them. Rape is the most under reported crime. Says who and how do they know this? If the rapes were not reported how do they know how many went unreported? I see "stats" that claim nonsense like 50% or 70% or all rape victims never file charges. How do they know this? If it wasnt reported you have no data nor evidence to support that claim. Did it ever occur to people that maybe rape is OVER reported as in false claims and false arrests? Like the example link above. What if half the guys sitting in prison for rape are the true victims? What if for a variety of reasons the women that accused them were lying? Maybe it was consensual and after the act she started talking long term plans, he dumps her so she retaliates and out of spite and a crushed ego claims rape? Or she thinks she might be pregnant and out of fear of her parents, her boss, society due to her age screams rape? How many times do this happen and how many innocent guys are rotting in prison because of some callous bitches false claims? What if it was your brother or son or husband? Of course my other favorite is "porn is demeaning and objectifies women", lol.

fullofgrace -> RE: Rape. Under reported or over reported? (6/3/2006 11:26:50 PM)
those cases are certainly valid and definitely do happen. but as a rape victim (who chose not to report the incident to the authorities), i can understand why actual victims of rape (not the callous bitches you speak of) might choose not to report it. i can understand it very well. and it's my personal belief that most likely, a LOT of cases DO go unreported. and i don't have much proof for this (because really you can't prove cases that go unreported) but i'd be willing to bet they outnumber the false cases that are reported. actually, because of the way the legal system tends to treat rape victims, i'm surprised that false cases end up in convictions when often real cases end up making things worse for the victim rather than actualizing any ideals of justice. edited to add: and short of not prosecuting rape cases, which in my mind would be inane, how do we stop this? we can stop people's innocent relatives from dying in the cases where it happens by abolishing the death penalty, so even if they are still in jail, they have a chance to have their life back if their innocence is revealed. and i'm all for innocent people NOT rotting in jail if possible, but how do you propose we stop that from happening in cases of rape? i mean, i understand your anger, certainly - i'm always pissed when someone's wrongfully convicted, whether it's rape or anything else - but it seems somewhat directionless. we could sit here and talk about the shittiness of the justice system and the cruelty of people to lie in cases where people's lives are at stake...but that is applicable to any sort of case, not just rape.

MsMacComb -> RE: Rape. Under reported or over reported? (6/4/2006 12:09:56 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: fullofgrace those cases are certainly valid and definitely do happen. but as a rape victim (who chose not to report the incident to the authorities), i can understand why actual victims of rape (not the callous bitches you speak of) might choose not to report it. i can understand it very well. and it's my personal belief that most likely, a LOT of cases DO go unreported. and i don't have much proof for this (because really you can't prove cases that go unreported) but i'd be willing to bet they outnumber the false cases that are reported. actually, because of the way the legal system tends to treat rape victims, i'm surprised that false cases end up in convictions when often real cases end up making things worse for the victim rather than actualizing any ideals of justice. edited to add: and short of not prosecuting rape cases, which in my mind would be inane, how do we stop this? we can stop people's innocent relatives from dying in the cases where it happens by abolishing the death penalty, so even if they are still in jail, they have a chance to have their life back if their innocence is revealed. and i'm all for innocent people NOT rotting in jail if possible, but how do you propose we stop that from happening in cases of rape? i mean, i understand your anger, certainly - i'm always pissed when someone's wrongfully convicted, whether it's rape or anything else - but it seems somewhat directionless. we could sit here and talk about the shittiness of the justice system and the cruelty of people to lie in cases where people's lives are at stake...but that is applicable to any sort of case, not just rape. I'm not questioning if or why some women choose not to report it. I rather doubt if it happened to me that I would. I'm saying or wondering if the purported numbers of those that do not report are offset or overrun by false reports? And you are correct that in many cases rape victims are (and moreso were) treated horribly. At the same time in some areas, some places the hysteria over that very fact was prompted people to overcompensate where they often then took the womans statement at face value. This is/was not justice either. I think for now and the future our best hope lies in forensics, DNA, proper exams and so forth. That applies to all crimes and certainly the numbers of inmates that are getting new trials or are being set free due to DNA is encouraging per death penaltiy cases. One problem with that is there are a lot of DAs and former law enforcment that made their careers and promotion on those convictions. Sadly, there is a lot of resistance (they blame the costs of testing evidence and new trials) to examining these cases based on someones reputation and the career advancment they reaped because of those convictions.

leakylee -> RE: Rape. Under reported or over reported? (6/4/2006 12:11:33 AM)
While I agree that the false allegations are insane and wrong, the number of those that go unreported still have to be high. The outlook on rape victims has changed in the last 20 years. The victims are not the ones that are put on trail quite as much now, but I still wonder how many fear the stigma. How many walk around with the issue that it was thier fault? Girls are taught not to fight. While this may save you some physical harm, it can cause some long lasting emotional issues. Just knowing that you allowed that so/so to violate your person is a hard issue to admit to anyone.Much less want to take public. It is a 50/50 toss. Trauma is induced no matter which way you go. Just my opinion and experience. love and light lee

Reflectivesoul -> RE: Rape. Under reported or over reported? (6/4/2006 12:19:58 AM)
Lemme give you some insight..... from My experiences... I did tell everyone I could when I was little what was happening to me. The very first time it happened I told.... I was dragged off to the dr's office and stripped told to lay on a table, 6 different people came into the room, 1 Dr and 5 students and I was told to be a "good girl" and let them see where I was touched.... I had to tell 6 people that I didnt have a clue as to who they were what had happened to me, while they were not only looking at my vagina but spreading and checking to see if my virginity had in fact been taken.... There is NOTHING worse than that. I dont have nightmares about the first rape... I have nightmares about the Dr's and what they did.... Rape does go unreported and I know this because every time it happened after that I shut up because I refused to be on that table under that light with a room full of people looking at and touching me and telling me to be a "good girl" and let them check.... No I dont think it is right for someone to sit in jail if they did not commit the crime, but there are more assholes walking the streets that actually did it than there are innocent people sitting behind bars for allegedly doing it....

MsMacComb -> RE: Rape. Under reported or over reported? (6/4/2006 12:20:49 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: leakylee While I agree that the false allegations are insane and wrong, the number of those that go unreported still have to be high. The outlook on rape victims has changed in the last 20 years. The victims are not the ones that are put on trail quite as much now, but I still wonder how many fear the stigma. How many walk around with the issue that it was thier fault? Girls are taught not to fight. While this may save you some physical harm, it can cause some long lasting emotional issues. Just knowing that you allowed that so/so to violate your person is a hard issue to admit to anyone.Much less want to take public. It is a 50/50 toss. Trauma is induced no matter which way you go. Just my opinion and experience. love and light lee Oh I agree Lee. I am just trying to look at it from the perspective of some innocent young guy who loses 8 years of his life in the pen for a crime he didnt commit. Not to mention that what if while there he got gang-raped in the showers, got HIV, developed full blown AIDs and died from it. Does his false rape accuser then get charged with his death? He never would have gotten the disease if not having been incarcerated based on false testimony. Shouldnt she be held accountable for that as well?

MsMacComb -> RE: Rape. Under reported or over reported? (6/4/2006 12:22:38 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Reflectivesoul there are more assholes walking the streets that actually did it than there are innocent people sitting behind bars for allegedly doing it.... This is my whole point. How do you know this? Evidence please? Two wrongs don't make a right.

leakylee -> RE: Rape. Under reported or over reported? (6/4/2006 12:33:14 AM)
MsMacComb, You are abosolutely right. It seems like everyone has gotten so trigger happy about using the law as a personal method of vindetta that to many people are suffering needlessly. I have an ex-boyfriend who lost 6 years with his daughter because his wife filed false rape changes against him. Now the fact that she had like a gizillion other outlandish charges on file with child services didnt stop the state from prosecuting him. I guess it all comes down to a question of law versus justice. In my opinion the spiteful witch should have to endure the same that the poor man has in the same facilities. That would be justice, but not lawful. We are to civilized for such behavior. I think. But then I think child molestors should have thier winkies nailed to a tree with a rusty nail and the tree set a flame. I dont know if this will pass the mods, but I think that is justice. My .02 it is all I could spare. love and light lee

Reflectivesoul -> RE: Rape. Under reported or over reported? (6/4/2006 12:42:57 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MsMacComb quote: ORIGINAL: Reflectivesoul there are more assholes walking the streets that actually did it than there are innocent people sitting behind bars for allegedly doing it.... This is my whole point. How do you know this? Evidence please? Two wrongs don't make a right. Because right now there are 5 people that did it to me that are walking the streets free men and women because after the first time I didnt report it anymore.... and thats just 5 from me alone.... I know several women that are friends of mine that were raped and it went unreported theres more walking around free men/women.... I have 3 male friends that were raped as children that never reported it.... theres more that are walking around on the streets.... Now unless you can say for sure that this one, that one, this one, that one, are in jail and didnt actually do it.... then I would be suggesting that they are so innocent.... Yes the fella that sat in there for 8 years was proven innocent and he was seriously violated by the justice system.... but that ONE versus 5 of my own that are free that shouldnt be.... even at 4 to 1 those odds arent very comforting

Tikkiee -> RE: Rape. Under reported or over reported? (6/4/2006 2:13:49 AM)
This is actualy in reply to the OP; just too lazy right now to scroll up and actually hit the correct reply button [:)] The basis for them 'theorizing' that most rape case go unreported is that almost all cases of rape happen with a person who is known to the victim. A boyfriend, a trusted friend, family member, etc. In the eyes of the victim, it actually does become a question of 'what did I do wrong', and " I am so embarassed that I did not stop this' . You also have to understand that in cases such as these, rape is extremely hard to prove because of the ties between the rapist and the victim. So, yes, even without a 'firm' factual basis for their numbers, I would agree with what is actually said; that 50, 60, 70 % of all rape cases go unreported. I would even go so far as to say that 90% of rape cases go unreported.

MsMacComb -> RE: Rape. Under reported or over reported? (6/4/2006 2:30:33 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Tikkiee This is actualy in reply to the OP; just too lazy right now to scroll up and actually hit the correct reply button [:)] The basis for them 'theorizing' that most rape case go unreported is that almost all cases of rape happen with a person who is known to the victim. A boyfriend, a trusted friend, family member, etc. In the eyes of the victim, it actually does become a question of 'what did I do wrong', and " I am so embarassed that I did not stop this' . You also have to understand that in cases such as these, rape is extremely hard to prove because of the ties between the rapist and the victim. So, yes, even without a 'firm' factual basis for their numbers, I would agree with what is actually said; that 50, 60, 70 % of all rape cases go unreported. I would even go so far as to say that 90% of rape cases go unreported. I don't necessarily disagree and fully know about the family/friend of the family connection. At the same time what if 50, 60, 70 or even so far as 90% percent of the ones that ARE reported are false. In theory you could have 90% of all rapes not reported and 90% of those that are be false. This is slightly off the same topic, but isnt. Its embarassing to admit but I do sometimes watch the cheedy daytime shows. Maury Povich has had endless shows where women come on claiming some guy to be the father of her child, they do DNA and he isnt. In some cases she will make a repeat visit, often twice, three times and in some shows the very same woman will have had the Povich show test 5 and even 6 different guys before finding one that actually was a match. My point is that we (women) lie just as much as guys do. Every show the women would claim there was absolutly NO chance that there was any other guy, uhuh, no way in hell, not a chance. Until the guy in question was exonerated. Then she would state that "perhaps" it was possible that it was some other guy. Take that same situation and apply it to some false rape claims. Rape sucks. Being falsely accused of rape sucks equally as much. We want parity and equality under the law and in all other aspects of life. We would be remiss or negligent to not take to task other women, or to deny, false rape claims. It ruins mens lifes. They lose their jobs, their wives, their kids, homes, family and whole lives. With no disrespect the fact that you wish to go with the claims of 60, 70 up to 90% with no evidence or data to back that up perpetuates the potential "myth" and is perhaps part of the problem. I would mention again that with modern day science and professional exams its fairly easy to establish (in some cases) what was done with consent and what was not as regards family members and of course DNA in other cases. I just think its actually a disservice to those that truly WERE violated for others to bandy about numbers that can not be substantiated. And every time some slut makes a false claim, it minimizes the ones that are true and makes some people even more suspicious about other claims. All I'm saying as far as that is that women that are proven (like my original posts link) should be punished to the fullest extent of the law, and beyond. They are contributing to the "boy that cried wolf" syndrome that creates complications for other woman who are true victims. Anyhow,,,,[:)]

Tikkiee -> RE: Rape. Under reported or over reported? (6/4/2006 2:47:22 AM)
I will not dispute unrefutable evidence that does state that false claims are made against both men and women. This I do know to be true. I will also agree 100% with you when you say that the false claims should be treated equally. In fact, I will go so far as to agree pretty much with everything that you just said lol. I understand fully what has your back stiffened [:)] However, in cases such as what you refer to, it becomes a 'he said she said' scenario. Very sad, but also a very true fact of the world that we live in today.

MsMacComb -> RE: Rape. Under reported or over reported? (6/4/2006 2:55:31 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Tikkiee I will not dispute unrefutable evidence that does state that false claims are made against both men and women. This I do know to be true. I will also agree 100% with you when you say that the false claims should be treated equally. In fact, I will go so far as to agree pretty much with everything that you just said lol. I understand fully what has your back stiffened [:)] However, in cases such as what you refer to, it becomes a 'he said she said' scenario. Very sad, but also a very true fact of the world that we live in today. Well thats where I hope that with the advancments of science they will be able to determine better from vaginal tissue trauma what was with consent and what was not. Believe me, I want every fucking rapist, molester and pedophile to go to jail till they rot. Period. But at the same time I know how I would feel if one of my brothers or my husband was falsely accused and spent decades in prison. I guess that (per the link) I have no sympathy for anyone filing false reports and think they should do the better half of their life in jail. As much as anyone else that minimizes the issue of rape, they are at fault. [:)]

pahunkboy -> RE: Rape. Under reported or over reported? (6/4/2006 5:16:12 AM)
When I lived in Chicago- many crimes were simply not reported. Mainly because nothing can be done about it. Police dont like paperwork either. If you are raped in the convention area along the lakefront. It would be handled. Daley wants the tourism to stay. But in many neighborhoods- no. So it does depend on location. I tend to believe the statistics.

Level -> RE: Rape. Under reported or over reported? (6/4/2006 5:21:15 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MsMacComb Well thats where I hope that with the advancments of science they will be able to determine better from vaginal tissue trauma what was with consent and what was not. Believe me, I want every fucking rapist, molester and pedophile to go to jail till they rot. Period. But at the same time I know how I would feel if one of my brothers or my husband was falsely accused and spent decades in prison. I guess that (per the link) I have no sympathy for anyone filing false reports and think they should do the better half of their life in jail. As much as anyone else that minimizes the issue of rape, they are at fault. [:)] Well said, MsMac.

Alumbrado -> RE: Rape. Under reported or over reported? (6/4/2006 7:52:27 AM)
The only way to 'know' about crime in general is to take available observations, and then assume an extrapolation. Trouble is, all victims do not make reports, all criminals do not self report, all reports are not neccesarily true, and organizations manipulate the reporting of the reports. Then the politicans and so forth use the numbers for their own agendas....

Wolf1020 -> RE: Rape. Under reported or over reported? (6/4/2006 10:14:17 AM)
I'd say it is equally split between both what goes unreported and what is made up. Either to get back at a guy, to be spiteful, to extort, they changed their minds after that maybe it wasn't a good idea, woke up next to a guy who was just as wasted as you were when the sex happened, etc. There are a lot of made up rape cases or cases that aren't really rape and then there are a lot of cases that aren't reported so I'd say it is about equally split. quote: Girls are taught not to fight. While this may save you some physical harm, it can cause some long lasting emotional issues. That is debatable and more and more often it is being understood that you should fight, especially as more and more criminals develop a no witnesses mind set. I encourage all people interested in protecting themselves to get a CWP, a concealed weapons permit also sometimes known as a CCW. Many states now have these and a good number of states are even what is known as "shall issue". If you live in most states in the south east, Midwest, or west (aside from Cali) you probably live in a shall issue state. The northeast is tricky but aside from NJ, NY, CT, and MA most have good laws, Vermont and NH are shall issue. Alaska and I believe NH you don't even need to permit to pack a gun concealed. What is "shall" issue? Simply put it means whatever department the state has given control of it to can not refuse to issue you a permit. You will have to pay a fee, in most states go through a training class which can range from a few hours to over the course of weekend, and pass a background check which is the same basic one you need to pass to buy a gun in the first place. So long as you have no felonies or domestic violence convictions (or are currently charged with one) you will pass that check. Once that happens they have no say or discretion in issuing you a permit. The training requirements, fees, and places off limits will vary from state to state. Some states are "may" issue which means the issuing agency for the state has the discretion to tell you they don't think you need a gun or whatever. So I encourage all women to look into their states law on concealed carry, get a gun (anyone with questions feel free to mail me on CM, I will be happy to talk guns with you male or female [:)]), learn the basic safety rules, I recommend an NRA certified basic pistol class, and become proficient. Some people have martial arts, some people have guns, look at it that way in your willingness to train. Get it, learn how to use it, and carry it. As I said the "don't fight back" strategy is being questioned more and more as more criminals become violent and develop a no witness mentality with their crimes. As well as the fact more and more states are passing good self defense and carry laws. While if you lay there and let him do what he wants he might not hurt you, but there is also a good chance he might. This is a man willing to rape you do you honestly want your life in his hands? If he cared about your well being he wouldn't be raping you. But what I can say to an almost certainty is that if he tries to rape you and you pull out your 1911 loaded with eight little friends all of whom can run faster and hit harder then he can that you aren't going to be raped or injured. And if you are truly willing to protect yourself and he thinks you are bluffing it wont be you who leaves the scene in a body bag or seriously injured.

MsMacComb -> RE: Rape. Under reported or over reported? (6/4/2006 10:03:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Wolf1020 If he cared about your well being he wouldn't be raping you. But what I can say to an almost certainty is that if he tries to rape you and you pull out your 1911 loaded with eight little friends all of whom can run faster and hit harder then he can that you aren't going to be raped or injured.. What is a 1911?

Wolf1020 -> RE: Rape. Under reported or over reported? (6/4/2006 10:33:48 PM)
hahaha I knew I was gonna get asked that http://www.m1911.org/ Was just an example. Most any handgun could be used in place of the 1911 for purposes of what I wrote....1911 just happens to be my handgun of choice

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