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RE: Read this, then STFU. - 3/26/2012 3:53:40 AM

Politesub53

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

It's time for me to invoke "Forum Rule #3" (People who live outside the US who have never even visited have no standing to offer an opinion to which I will give any credit about what happens inside our borders).

Ah yes, the good ole "No one can have an opinion I dont agree with" rule.

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RE: Read this, then STFU. - 3/26/2012 4:13:03 AM

LadyPact

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So, what we are saying here goes something like this......

If somebody jumps Me while I am getting into My vehicle, I'm supposed to just let that happen? I'm supposed to not be frightened, find some way that My natural reaction to adrenalin shouldn't exist, and I'm supposed to take the chance that My instincts to remove the threat are not right?

Is that what we're saying?

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RE: Read this, then STFU. - 3/26/2012 4:29:05 AM

farglebargle

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

So, what we are saying here goes something like this......

If somebody jumps Me while I am getting into My vehicle, I'm supposed to just let that happen? I'm supposed to not be frightened, find some way that My natural reaction to adrenalin shouldn't exist, and I'm supposed to take the chance that My instincts to remove the threat are not right?

Is that what we're saying?

Well, that depends. First, if ZIMMERMAN ( not you ) was 'jumped getting into his vehicle', then how come Zimmerman and Martin are so far away from that vehicle when Zimmerman kills Martin?

If Zimmerman was blind-sided getting into his car, why wasn't Martin shot RIGHT THERE BY THE CAR, INSTEAD OF FAR AWAY IN SOMEONE'S BACKYARD?

What you're saying is that Zimmerman is blind-sided by Martin. Zimmerman fights him off, and runs away, and is chased by Martin.

How far is a 250 pound tub-of-lard going to get against a 6'3" skinny running back? Not very far, certainly Zimmerman couldn't have broken contact and RUN THAT FAR, nor does Zimmerman make that claim.

So, the assertion that Zimmerman was attacked BY HIS CAR does not fit the KNOWN FACTS and reasonable inferences made from those facts.

And that's not even addressing the important thing: WHAT MOTIVE WOULD AN INNOCENT KID COMING BACK FROM THE CANDY STORE HAVE FOR COMMITTING ASSAULT ON A STRANGER? Remember, Trayvon Martin IS AN INNOCENT KID WHO COMMITTED NO CRIME, WAS NOT UNDER ANY SUSPICION FOR ANY CRIME AND WAS ON HIS WAY HOME FOR THE REST OF THE GAME ON TV.

Explain a motive.

< Message edited by farglebargle -- 3/26/2012 4:34:31 AM >

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RE: Read this, then STFU. - 3/26/2012 5:33:49 AM

Kirata

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

I ask in all seriousness...

Florida law requires that arrests be made upon probable cause. Absent tangible evidence or witness statements to support probable cause, the arresting agency and the police officer may be subject to an action for false arrest and false imprisonment.

In the present instance, the police found a man who had been pummeled, bleeding from the nose and the back of the head, with grass stains on his clothing and a witness who reported seeing him on the ground. Conversely, there were no reported injuries of any kind to the other party except the bullet wound that killed him. These facts are consistent with a claim of attack and self-defense. Absent tangible evidence or witness statements to the contrary, there was no probable cause to support an arrest at that time.

Zimmerman can still, and will, be arrested if new evidence or witness statements give rise to probable cause, or if the Grand Jury reviewing the case determines that the circumstances are sufficient to find that probable cause exists. There remains only to be said that agitated pronouncements shouted repeatedly in caps by frothing internet-lawyers are of no consequence in the matter.

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 3/26/2012 5:58:16 AM >

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RE: Read this, then STFU. - 3/26/2012 6:08:32 AM

DaddySatyr

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There is little doubt that police officers get called to a location, arrive at the location, do some brief investigation and determine whether or not they have grounds for an arrest or if the situation merits more investigation.

There is little doubt that in this instance, detectives and forensic investigators were called to the scene and that Zimmerman wasn't allowed to go anywhere (unless he had needed to go to the hospital) until some kind of on-the-scene determination had been made as to whether an arrest was in order or not.

The probability is that Zimmerman told his story, the police/detectives interviewed witnesses¹, the forensics team took some measurements and made a preliminary report to the detectives and the determination was made that Zimmerman's story and the witness accounts seemed to match the physical evidence. This tells me that while Zimmerman isn't blameless, he probably isn't going to be found guilty of murder or manslaughter. I guess it could happen but, I doubt it.

What I think is going to happen here is the Grand Jury is going to refuse to bring back a true bill and this young man and his family will be forced to move for fear of their lives because of the threats by people who have already tried and convicted Zimmerman.

Even if the Grand Jury indicts (even a bad prosecutor can get a ham sandwich indicted), there is little chance of a conviction based upon what seems to be in evidence, at this point.

Now, once he's acquitted, the fed will come along with their bullshit "hate laws" and determine that they know what was in this young man's mind and heart that evening (laughable, on its face) and send him to jail for civil rights violations.

Peace and comfort,

Michael

¹There's been a lot made of this witness that told police: "I saw the whole thing" and the appearance that there are gaps in his statement. This is far from unusual.

At just about any incident scene where there are people around, someone will utter those words and it will be found out to be hyperbole. It's kind of human nature.

That doesn't negate the fact that his statement may very well be important and complete enough to help the case in one direction or another.

< Message edited by DaddySatyr -- 3/26/2012 6:09:28 AM >

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RE: Read this, then STFU. - 3/26/2012 7:19:51 AM

Owner59

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

I ask in all seriousness...

Florida law requires that arrests be made upon probable cause. Absent tangible evidence or witness statements to support probable cause, the arresting agency and the police officer may be subject to an action for false arrest and false imprisonment.

In the present instance, the police found a man who had been pummeled, bleeding from the nose and the back of the head, with grass stains on his clothing and a witness who reported seeing him on the ground. Conversely, there were no reported injuries of any kind to the other party except the bullet wound that killed him. These facts are consistent with a claim of attack and self-defense. Absent tangible evidence or witness statements to the contrary, there was no probable cause to support an arrest at that time.

Zimmerman can still, and will, be arrested if new evidence or witness statements give rise to probable cause, or if the Grand Jury reviewing the case determines that the circumstances are sufficient to find that probable cause exists. There remains only to be said that agitated pronouncements shouted repeatedly in caps by frothing internet-lawyers are of no consequence in the matter.

K.

Florida would be the place to off someone without much trouble.

Set it up right and you can do someone and walk.

If from what I`ve gathered from the pro-Zimmermans it true.....one could start a fight or bait someone into a fight(you know....chase someone down?),feign like they were the one being attacked and become "the" victim.............. and then kill.

Best not have any witnesses,tho,especially the dead person.

< Message edited by Owner59 -- 3/26/2012 7:25:59 AM >

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RE: Read this, then STFU. - 3/26/2012 7:35:51 AM

xssve

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quote:

When the officer on scene decides no crime was committed, duh.

And when he dead person is Black, it's a no brainer, it's always self defense, duh.

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RE: Read this, then STFU. - 3/26/2012 7:37:22 AM

farglebargle

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

I ask in all seriousness...

Florida law requires that arrests be made upon probable cause. Absent tangible evidence or witness statements to support probable cause, the arresting agency and the police officer may be subject to an action for false arrest and false imprisonment.

quote:

In the present instance, the police found a man who had been pummeled, bleeding from the nose and the back of the head, with
grass stains on his clothing and a witness who reported seeing him on the ground.

Zimmerman's injuries are consistent with him being out of shape, and falling on the ground as he chased after Martin. The blood on Zimmerman's face was MOST LIKELY Martin's, since gunshots at point-blank range are often messy.

There is no EVIDENCE of Zimmerman's injuries being caused by Martin. AND they're trivial, so not even worthy of considering escalating to Great Bodily Harm, so the whole 'self-defense' claim is horseshit. NO HOSPITAL VISIT. NO ER EXAM. Nothing.

This "investigation" you claim the Sanford PD did, was so 'thorough' THEY DID NOT EVEN ESTABLISH THE IDENTITY OF THE DEAD KID. They sent him to the morgue as John Doe.

And you're going to assert that that "Investigation" is credible? When they did not even bother to learn the dead child's name, or notify his parents.

Yeah, That's a nice story, and Zimmerman can tell that story to the judge when his attorney moves for dismissal on self defense.

THE REQUIREMENTS FOR MANSLAUGHTER ARE CLEARLY SUSTAINED.

quote:

Conversely, there were no reported injuries of any kind to the other party except the bullet wound that killed him.

Well, that's a lot bigger injury than Zimmerman claimed. Trayvon's injury sent him to the morgue. Zimmerman's 'injuries' didn't even send him to the Emergency Room.

quote:

These facts are consistent with a claim of attack and self-defense.

If you're a blindfolded chimpanzee. If you're a Law Enforcement Professional, not so much...

YOUR PROBLEM IS THAT YOU'RE NOT FACING THE REALITY THAT THE SANFORD PD IS NOT TRUSTWORTHY.

So, by accepting their obviously false story as true. ( IF Zimmerman WAS attacked by his car, WHY was martin killed far away in someone's backyard. ON IT'S FACE, Zimmerman's story is false.

So, until you can explain to everyone how Zimmerman, who SAYS he was attacked by his car, pulled the trigger and killed Trayvon Martin a considerable distance away ( Go look at the police reports and google maps... It's clear... ), you're as full of shit as the Sanford PD.

AND, What MOTIVE would Trayvon Martin HAVE to attack Zimmerman?

< Message edited by farglebargle -- 3/26/2012 7:49:58 AM >

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RE: Read this, then STFU. - 3/26/2012 9:05:44 AM

Politesub53

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

So, what we are saying here goes something like this......

If somebody jumps Me while I am getting into My vehicle, I'm supposed to just let that happen? I'm supposed to not be frightened, find some way that My natural reaction to adrenalin shouldn't exist, and I'm supposed to take the chance that My instincts to remove the threat are not right?

Is that what we're saying?

Thats not what happened though Lady P.

You can clearly hear the dispatcher telling Zimmerman not to follow the kid and let the cops handle it. He chose not to and the kid ended up dead, that alone should be enough to trigger a proper investigation into the incident.

The law on the issue in the UK states that anyone has a right to use reasonable force. A jury will then detemine if that force was or wasnt reasonable. You must also have felt you were under imminent threat of attack.

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RE: Read this, then STFU. - 3/26/2012 10:12:23 AM

Edwynn

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact
So, what we are saying here goes something like this......

If somebody jumps Me while I am getting into My vehicle, I'm supposed to just let that happen?

Oh good gosh.

So much for your credibility as anything resembling an authority figure of whatever sort. Your silly capitalizing of the personal pronoun looks even sillier than before after that.

The 911 dispatcher tape and every other evidence shows that Zimmerman was pursuing a kid minding his own business and talking to his g/f, and that the incident took place on a pathway between the townhouses, quite far away from Zimmerman's vehicle.

Unless you think that ~ 6 different 911 callers were incorrect in looking at the incident firsthand and saying it was happening in their backyard and were delusional in not stating that it was actually happening well beyond their view far away at Zimmerman's SUV as he was trying to escape.

Sometimes, dullwitedness knows no bounds.

< Message edited by Edwynn -- 3/26/2012 10:20:25 AM >

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RE: Read this, then STFU. - 3/26/2012 10:49:43 AM

Edwynn

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
Florida law requires that arrests be made upon probable cause.

I have had my vehicle searched on two different occasions with no probable cause that would have ever held up in any state's court. No arrest, just overzealous bored cops.

I was once detained for more than an hour for walking home from the grocery store, quasi-PC on that occasion being that I was a pedestrian instead of driver of a vehicle for a trip to the grocery store 3 blocks way (this was actually explained to me when I called about it afterwards).

I have been held for questioning on two different occasions for ~ 10 minutes for walking barefoot, in a Southern city, in the dead of Summer.

True, I was not arrested in any of the above, but I am pointing out that PC for fishing expeditions is no great matter. PC concerning a dead body is somewhat more solid and justifiable.

< Message edited by Edwynn -- 3/26/2012 10:54:49 AM >

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RE: Read this, then STFU. - 3/26/2012 3:46:11 PM

Politesub53

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Kirata.....Thanks for the explaination.

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RE: Read this, then STFU. - 3/26/2012 4:24:08 PM

PeonForHer

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr
It's time for me to invoke "Forum Rule #3" (People who live outside the US who have never even visited have no standing to offer an opinion to which I will give any credit about what happens inside our borders).

Up to you if you want to ignore non-US opinions, DS, but we're going to give them anyway. I can't see any great reason why I should ignore the death of someone at the hands of another just because it happened outside of my country.

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RE: Read this, then STFU. - 3/26/2012 4:50:07 PM

PeonForHer

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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle
This "investigation" you claim the Sanford PD did, was so 'thorough' THEY DID NOT EVEN ESTABLISH THE IDENTITY OF THE DEAD KID. They sent him to the morgue as John Doe.

What? Are you kidding? That's just astonishing.

It's almost impossible to imagine that happening here in the UK. The police would *know* that failing to identify the kid concerned pronto would make it look as though they simply didn't care. Did the police bigwigs concerned have no diplomatic sensibilities at all? I have to say, that, on its own, looks like it smacks of an attitude of 'Who cares? He was just a trash kid from the ghettos.'

But, beyond this, what utterly, completely astonishes me about this case is the fact that so many people who should have had so much more savvy were so politically cretinous. The merest hint of racism at the hands of the authorities requires the biggest show of effort on the part of those authorities to root out any such problem that may exist. That would be true even in a country that doesn't have racist laws in living memory, plus a population that's widely armed, never mind one that doesn't and isn't.

For what it's worth I'd say to the USA authorities concerned: Make things look thoroughly righteous, and pretty damned quick, or look forward to a lot more grief, and possibly even killings, in the near future. Jesus. As a twelve year old I could have handled all this better.

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RE: Read this, then STFU. - 3/26/2012 4:57:43 PM

MrBukani

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If a police officer shoots a kid.
Should he file a report?
Cap?
Capishe.
You no Italia?

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RE: Read this, then STFU. - 3/26/2012 5:00:43 PM

MrBukani

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I get so angry with this sorry.
But if I had lived in the states I would have been shot at least ten times outta a hundred fights.

Shame.
Really
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RE: Read this, then STFU. - 3/26/2012 5:18:10 PM

PeonForHer

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrBukani

If a police officer shoots a kid.
Should he file a report?
Cap?
Capishe.
You no Italia?

Mr B, I'm not going to talk to you unless you write in proper English. I can't be bothered. Sorry. It's a waste of time and energy for me.

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RE: Read this, then STFU. - 3/26/2012 6:13:34 PM

SadistDave

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It's actually pretty smart to send a body to the morgue as a "John Doe" if you cannot ID it at the scene. Bodies draw crowds. Crowds destroy evidence. If the kid had carried even a student ID they would have found it as soon as they picked him up off the ground. Unfortunately, even when kids bother to carry ID it's usually not enough to establish their identity with enough certainty to risk fucking up the identification and telling the wrong family that their child is dead.

Under the circumstances, the alternative would have been to let the body start to decompose on the sidewalk until someone happened by who could ID the kid from behind a police perimeter. What the hell do you expect police to do; drive through the streets with a bullhorn asking people to come view a body at a bloody crime scene where they can freak out in public and hamper the collection of evidence even more?

Really? Are you people that ignorant?

-SD-

< Message edited by SadistDave -- 3/26/2012 6:14:38 PM >

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RE: Read this, then STFU. - 3/26/2012 6:24:16 PM

farglebargle

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Yeah. Well, That MIGHT be a good story except.. You know.. Don't COPS usually go door-to-door to see if the victim lives around there or anything?

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RE: Read this, then STFU. - 3/26/2012 6:47:08 PM

SadistDave

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I don't think it's the preferred method of IDing a body since about 1930something. It's generally a pretty good idea to be absolutely sure you have the right people before you go knocking on someones door to ask them if their child might be the person lying in a bloody heap on the sidewalk...

Mad-dog Martin was shot about 70 yards from where he was allegedly going according to the news accounts. He was shot between houses in an area that connects several back yards. My immediate question about the identification process is simpy this: "Why didn't anyone recognise him well enough to indicate that he even belonged in the neighborhood?" Perhaps that has something to do with the forensics. Don't know... can't find the crime scene or autopsy photo's online from any reliable sources.

-SD-

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