RE: MSNBC: Supreme Court expresses skepticism over constitutionality of health care mandate

RE: MSNBC: Supreme Court expresses skepticism over constitutionality of health care mandate (Full Version)

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mnottertail -> RE: MSNBC: Supreme Court expresses skepticism over constitutionality of health care mandate (3/28/2012 6:40:32 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Yachtie quote: ORIGINAL: mnottertail QED. And the logic and fact contained therein was? That you're evidently not tall enough for this ride. LOL. I am taller than you, Napoleon. And I am in possession of some pretty obvious and well known facts that you convieniently ignored in your ratpoison republican off topic non sequitur regarding Obama, which was instantly destroyed by simple fact, that it ain't Obamcare, he has nothing to do with it.

Yachtie -> RE: MSNBC: Supreme Court expresses skepticism over constitutionality of health care mandate (3/28/2012 6:44:05 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery quote: ORIGINAL: servantforuse DefiantBadGirl, It's not to late. If you don't like living in the United States you can always move. I hear that Cuba has a wonderful health care system. If you can't have a discussion with the grownups, go watch the talk shows. Or perhaps the cartoons. The average person in the U.S. has a net worth of $47,000. The average person in OMG Socialist Canada has a net worth of $97,000. Guess why. It hasn't been stolen yet?

Musicmystery -> RE: MSNBC: Supreme Court expresses skepticism over constitutionality of health care mandate (3/28/2012 7:06:50 AM)
And that, Yachtie, is the difference between doing this with the private sector verses national health care. In Canada, it hasn't been stolen yet.

Hillwilliam -> RE: MSNBC: Supreme Court expresses skepticism over constitutionality of health care mandate (3/28/2012 7:06:53 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Yachtie quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery quote: ORIGINAL: servantforuse DefiantBadGirl, It's not to late. If you don't like living in the United States you can always move. I hear that Cuba has a wonderful health care system. If you can't have a discussion with the grownups, go watch the talk shows. Or perhaps the cartoons. The average person in the U.S. has a net worth of $47,000. The average person in OMG Socialist Canada has a net worth of $97,000. Guess why. It hasn't been stolen yet? Who are the main thieves? Big Pharma and the Health care/legal industry?

farglebargle -> RE: MSNBC: Supreme Court expresses skepticism over constitutionality of health care mandate (3/28/2012 7:27:43 AM)
And the solution is Universal Medicare. The US Congress says, "We're paying X for that drug, take it or leave it". Instant savings.

farglebargle -> RE: MSNBC: Supreme Court expresses skepticism over constitutionality of health care mandate (3/28/2012 7:29:50 AM)
Here's the thing. If the USSC tosses the ACA, then they also say that the DRUG CONTROL ACT is also wrong. Which means a lot of people are going to be hurt. Prisons might have to close. Prison guards on unemployment. There's a LOT of money on the table here. So the USSC is trapped.

Arturas -> RE: MSNBC: Supreme Court expresses skepticism over constitutionality of health care mandate (3/28/2012 7:50:27 AM)
quote: Chief Justice Roberts is many thing but a fool isn't one. His court is going to punt this for 2+ years by invoking the law saying courts can't litigate on a tax until someone has paid it. Then around 2017 or 2018 SCOTUS will up hold the law if anyone bothers appealing all the way again. Actually, they signaled the first day, Monday, that this is not the case. No punt. They are deciding this here and now and they allowed three days of arguments signalling how serious this issue is.

provfivetine -> RE: MSNBC: Supreme Court expresses skepticism over constitutionality of health care mandate (3/28/2012 8:41:57 AM)
The mandate is the centerpiece of this entire bill and, ironically, provides the insurance industry with some sort of stability. If the mandate gets struck down and the rest of the bill is allowed to stand, then it will wreak havoc on the entire health care system and will completely destroy insurance providers within a couple of years. After all, if an individual cannot be denied coverage based on a certain pre-existing condition, then why would this person get insurance in the first place? Remember, there would be no penalty to pay if they choose to remain uninsured. Under this situation many people will choose to sign up for insurance coverage once there is an accident, once they get sick, or diagnosed with a complication, etc. This will lead to a scenario where insurance provider output income (money paid via claims) exceeds input income (money received via premiums), bankrupting them in the process. This could be an even better scenario for the socialists since the system will be destroyed quicker without the mandate, where they can attempt to enact a socialist scheme once it breaks down. On the other hand, if the entire bill gets struck down, then every single person reading this will never see a single payer system in their lifetimes.

mnottertail -> RE: MSNBC: Supreme Court expresses skepticism over constitutionality of health care mandate (3/28/2012 8:55:46 AM)
If they strike down the mandate, it will lead us on a quicker path to Universal Healthcare, which of course, is the inevitable (since it is the only workable) path.

provfivetine -> RE: MSNBC: Supreme Court expresses skepticism over constitutionality of health care mandate (3/28/2012 9:05:58 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery The average person in the U.S. has a net worth of $47,000. The average person in OMG Socialist Canada has a net worth of $97,000. That doesn't sound right. Where did you get these numbers?

Musicmystery -> RE: MSNBC: Supreme Court expresses skepticism over constitutionality of health care mandate (3/28/2012 9:25:27 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: provfivetine quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery The average person in the U.S. has a net worth of $47,000. The average person in OMG Socialist Canada has a net worth of $97,000. That doesn't sound right. Where did you get these numbers? quote: The average person in the U.S. has a net worth of $47,000. The average person in OMG Socialist Canada has a net worth of $97,000. Old numbers...here are more up to date ones. As reported in the December/January 2012 issue of Money Sense, Canada’s average median citizen's net worth has topped the United states. A Credit Suisse 2011 Global Report found that Canadians are now officially wealthier than Americans. The median net-worth per adult in Canada is $89,014 US, but in America, it's $52,752 US. The median amount represents an individual with a net worth in the middle range relative to the rest of the country. However, if you look at the average net worth per adult in the two countries, you will find very different results. The average net worth of Canadians in general is $245,455 US, and in the United States, the average net worth for citizens is $248,395 US. The reason the average figures are so much higher than the median figures is that the average figures are skewed by the extremely wealthy. The United States has 32% of the world's billionaires, so this fact alone significantly raises the overall net worth of America. http://lsminsurance.ca/life-insurance-canada/2011/12/canadas-net-worth-tops-the-united-states

provfivetine -> RE: MSNBC: Supreme Court expresses skepticism over constitutionality of health care mandate (3/28/2012 9:39:38 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery Old numbers...here are more up to date ones. As reported in the December/January 2012 issue of Money Sense, Canada’s average median citizen's net worth has topped the United states. A Credit Suisse 2011 Global Report found that Canadians are now officially wealthier than Americans. The median net-worth per adult in Canada is $89,014 US, but in America, it's $52,752 US. The median amount represents an individual with a net worth in the middle range relative to the rest of the country. However, if you look at the average net worth per adult in the two countries, you will find very different results. The average net worth of Canadians in general is $245,455 US, and in the United States, the average net worth for citizens is $248,395 US. The reason the average figures are so much higher than the median figures is that the average figures are skewed by the extremely wealthy. The United States has 32% of the world's billionaires, so this fact alone significantly raises the overall net worth of America. http://lsminsurance.ca/life-insurance-canada/2011/12/canadas-net-worth-tops-the-united-states "Average median" is a strange way of measurement. There could be some statistical gimmickry at play here. I'd be interested reading up on this survey's research method (the official survey link is broken, unfortunately). I'm not sure if the US does surveys per-adult median income. Most of those surveys, to my knowledge, calculate median household income. It would be interesting to see other studies, because this doesn't seem right.

Musicmystery -> RE: MSNBC: Supreme Court expresses skepticism over constitutionality of health care mandate (3/28/2012 9:40:37 AM)
Since the article both addresses that, gives other figures, and explains why, I can't imagine how your question isn't answered.

provfivetine -> RE: MSNBC: Supreme Court expresses skepticism over constitutionality of health care mandate (3/28/2012 9:47:29 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery Since the article both addresses that, gives other figures, and explains why, I can't imagine how your question isn't answered. It barely addresses it, though I'm sure the real survey does. Research method is very important in these types of studies, and the linked article does not elaborate on such matters. Plus the real source is what's salient, not the third party relaying tidbits.

Musicmystery -> RE: MSNBC: Supreme Court expresses skepticism over constitutionality of health care mandate (3/28/2012 9:49:51 AM)
Research away. In the meantime, the problem is you just don't like what the research shows. We'll talk again when you've got research to share.

mnottertail -> RE: MSNBC: Supreme Court expresses skepticism over constitutionality of health care mandate (3/28/2012 9:57:19 AM)
Average median is perfectly acceptable since we do not know the data is symmetrical. (in fact when dealing with such clusters as household income (cuz we would ask in a range) median average would be the only acceptable number. Average mean would be acceptable for an even number of values reasonably distributed. Like school grades, with discrete values. Don't pretend to have math skills, please.

DesideriScuri -> RE: MSNBC: Supreme Court expresses skepticism over constitutionality of health care mandate (3/28/2012 9:57:45 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Owner59 quote: ORIGINAL: searching4mysir FR Yeah, it MUST be selfishness. It couldn't possibly be because the feds are overstepping their boundaries again [8\|] What the government can GIVE you, they can TAKE AWAY from you. So if the government provided someone without heathcare insurance ...healthcare services...that,would be worse that getting no care at all? Please explain how healing someone is evil or bad government or not good somehow? You know damn well this legislation isn't about health care services directly. It's about paying for health care services. quote: Oh, no, it's not. They all involved commerce. There was no doubt that was what regulated was commerce. And here you're regulating somebody who isn't covered. By the way, I don't agree with you that the relevant market here is health care. You're not regulating health care. You're regulating insurance. It's the insurance market that you're addressing and you're saying that some people who are not in it must be in it and that's — that's difference from regulating in any manner commerce that already exists out there. - Justice Scalia

Hillwilliam -> RE: MSNBC: Supreme Court expresses skepticism over constitutionality of health care mandate (3/28/2012 10:02:01 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: provfivetine quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery Old numbers...here are more up to date ones. As reported in the December/January 2012 issue of Money Sense, Canada’s average median citizen's net worth has topped the United states. A Credit Suisse 2011 Global Report found that Canadians are now officially wealthier than Americans. The median net-worth per adult in Canada is $89,014 US, but in America, it's $52,752 US. The median amount represents an individual with a net worth in the middle range relative to the rest of the country. However, if you look at the average net worth per adult in the two countries, you will find very different results. The average net worth of Canadians in general is $245,455 US, and in the United States, the average net worth for citizens is $248,395 US. The reason the average figures are so much higher than the median figures is that the average figures are skewed by the extremely wealthy. The United States has 32% of the world's billionaires, so this fact alone significantly raises the overall net worth of America. http://lsminsurance.ca/life-insurance-canada/2011/12/canadas-net-worth-tops-the-united-states "Average median" is a strange way of measurement. There could be some statistical gimmickry at play here. I'd be interested reading up on this survey's research method (the official survey link is broken, unfortunately). I'm not sure if the US does surveys per-adult median income. Most of those surveys, to my knowledge, calculate median household income. It would be interesting to see other studies, because this doesn't seem right. Translation: It goes against your pre concieved notions, therefore it must be untrue. Am I close?

Musicmystery -> RE: MSNBC: Supreme Court expresses skepticism over constitutionality of health care mandate (3/28/2012 10:08:05 AM)
Going by past threads, research has never been his "thing."

provfivetine -> RE: MSNBC: Supreme Court expresses skepticism over constitutionality of health care mandate (3/28/2012 10:12:12 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery Research away. In the meantime, the problem is you just don't like what the research shows. We'll talk again when you've got research to share. Ah. Was mixing up your first post on average with the clarification on median. Good thing I'm not in stats class. Coffee time for me. Anyways, the real study is here.

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