RE: Petition: Tell Prison Fellowship: "Stand Your Ground" Is Not a Christian Value (Full Version)

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Kirata -> RE: Petition: Tell Prison Fellowship: "Stand Your Ground" Is Not a Christian Value (3/29/2012 5:15:04 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: hardcybermaster

so a study done by americans about gun crime could never have any kind of conflict of interest?

You think they might be in favor of it?

K.








lovmuffin -> RE: Petition: Tell Prison Fellowship: "Stand Your Ground" Is Not a Christian Value (3/29/2012 5:16:46 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama

NRA's publications prompted former U.S. President George H. W. Bush to resign his life-long membership[49] after they published an advertisement calling federal agents, specifically those of the ATF, "jack-booted government thugs" out to take away individual gun rights. The NRA later apologized for the letter's language.[49]





As I recall it was a fundraising letter and the NRA shouldn't have apologized.


http://www.mega.nu/batf/croaker/batfabus.html#INDEX

And that's just a start. There's so much more.




lovmuffin -> RE: Petition: Tell Prison Fellowship: "Stand Your Ground" Is Not a Christian Value (3/29/2012 5:32:20 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama

I don't find their position on gun shows and semi-automatics responsible.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Rifle_Association#Criticism

The NRA is criticized by gun control groups such as the Coalition to Stop Gun Violence, Brady Campaign, Million Mom March, and Americans for Gun Safety. The Coalition to Stop Gun Violence has criticized the NRA for its "warped conception of popular sovereignty...that citizens need to arm themselves to safeguard political liberties against threats by the government."[45] It went on to add that "if [the NRA members] believe in the right to take up arms to resist government policies they consider oppressive, even when these policies have been adopted by elected officials and subjected to review by an independent judiciary, then they are opposed to constitutional democracy." More specifically, the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun violence has stated that, as a result of the NRA's lobbying, gun crime has "soared" and a teenager can "purchase an AK-47 semi-automatic assault rifle at a gun show without having to show ID and without a background check."[46] Jim Kessler, of the Third Way (a pro-gun control group that has incorporated Americans for Gun Safety), has also criticized the NRA for promoting a bill that limited information that was disseminated regarding guns that have been used to commit crimes.[47]

A variety of newspaper editorial boards, including the New York Times, Washington Post, Los Angeles Times, and USA Today, disagree with the NRA's policies, such as in September 2004, when the boards called for the extension of the assault weapons ban. Recently, the New York Times has criticized the NRA for promoting politicians that oppose "sensible gun control laws."[48] In addition, the NRA's publications prompted former U.S. President George H. W. Bush to resign his life-long membership[49] after they published an advertisement calling federal agents, specifically those of the ATF, "jack-booted government thugs" out to take away individual gun rights. The NRA later apologized for the letter's language.[49]

http://www.bradycampaign.org/legislation/backgroundchecks/gunshowloophole



Like anyone would give a rats ass what a variety of highly exaggerated newspaper editorial boards say about anything. If it wasn't for the NRA we would have been reduced to muzzle loaders a long time ago. When ever liberals write up a gun control bill they go way to far. I've never seen a gun control bill I ever thought was reasonable.

The assault weapons ban on semi autos was a farce,I'm glad it sunsetted. Why did they do it in the first place ? If ya want to get gun sales without background checks out of gun shows then write a law require those selling multiple guns who have tables to get a license. Keep the legislation narrowly focused only on that.




dcnovice -> RE: Petition: Tell Prison Fellowship: "Stand Your Ground" Is Not a Christian Value (3/29/2012 5:41:26 PM)

quote:

seen Sturm Ruger's stock lately?


48.35 at 6:25PM EDT.

I'm sure that's an immense comfort to the families of the more than 10,000 Americans murdered with firearms each year.




dcnovice -> RE: Petition: Tell Prison Fellowship: "Stand Your Ground" Is Not a Christian Value (3/29/2012 5:47:05 PM)

quote:

Who gives a flying fuck what the Brady bunch says, we all know it'll be anti gun bullshit.


Being shot and paralyzed probably does take a toll on one's appreciation for handguns.




Musicmystery -> RE: Petition: Tell Prison Fellowship: "Stand Your Ground" Is Not a Christian Value (3/29/2012 7:04:42 PM)

Wait. I thought Harvard was automatically liberal bullshit.

When did they become NRA bullshit?




Yachtie -> RE: Petition: Tell Prison Fellowship: "Stand Your Ground" Is Not a Christian Value (3/29/2012 7:55:22 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

seen Sturm Ruger's stock lately?


48.35 at 6:25PM EDT.

I'm sure that's an immense comfort to the families of the more than 10,000 Americans murdered with firearms each year.



They might not be appreciative, but to all those families and individuals who defend themselves against criminals each year I'd bet it's heart warming. I wonder how many of those 10,000 who were murdered were either denied gun ownership due to state law (possibly being criminals themselves or living in ~NYC) or were anti-gun leftists?




lovmuffin -> RE: Petition: Tell Prison Fellowship: "Stand Your Ground" Is Not a Christian Value (3/29/2012 8:50:07 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

seen Sturm Ruger's stock lately?


48.35 at 6:25PM EDT.

I'm sure that's an immense comfort to the families of the more than 10,000 Americans murdered with firearms each year.



They might not be appreciative, but to all those families and individuals who defend themselves against criminals each year I'd bet it's heart warming. I wonder how many of those 10,000 who were murdered were either denied gun ownership due to state law (possibly being criminals themselves or living in ~NYC) or were anti-gun leftists?



How many were gang bangers ?




LafayetteLady -> RE: Petition: Tell Prison Fellowship: "Stand Your Ground" Is Not a Christian Value (3/29/2012 10:20:16 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady

I'm saying that often, while the concept and theory of the good a law will do, when put in practice becomes problematic. This particular law creates more work for district attorneys...

As the law is written, anyone can say they felt in danger for their life and acted accordingly. Considering in nearly every circumstance where this defense will be used, the other person will not be able to present their side (since they will be dead), can't you see how it creates a problem?

Well, "nearly every circumstance" overstates the case. The ratio of (non-accidental) non-fatal to fatal gunshot injuries ranges from 3:1 to 5:1 depending on what source you consult. And the fact that a good law makes more work for district attorneys doesn't strike me as a powerful argument against it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady

There are more than enough laws on the books to allow people to defend themselves and their property. This particular law does nothing but create a potential defense when there shouldn't be one.

I don't understand what you mean by saying that it creates a defense where there shouldn't be one. My reaction to that is, of course there should! I'm not an attorney (I suppose that's obvious) but, from what I've read about what people who have defended themselves have been put through after the fact, the absence of such a law seems to leave someone having to prove their innocence. That's just fundamentally wrong.

K.



Ok, to be clear, I'm not reading any other posts on this thread because it is nothing more than bickering back and forth.

I know I'm not wording it well.  Considering I haven't slept in nearly 48 hours could be a partial explanation for that.  The other part is the pain killers I have been on.

So let me try again, and if it still comes out wrong, my apologies in advance.

Stand Your Ground does not specifically apply to guns as deadly force only, so let's for just a moment (and in the hope I can be more clear) forget about the use of a gun as deadly force.  Let's take a circumstance where a person is attacked by say a mugger.  SYG allows for the victim to use "deadly force" if they believe they are in imminent danger of serious harm or death, and if I were being mugged, I would certainly have that fear.  Now, "like for like" says that even in this circumstance you can only use force equal to the force being used against you.  In fact, this is pretty broad, even broaching to a point of being comparable to SYG, because all factors are taken into account.  So if it is a petite woman and a large guy, she could possibly be justified under "like for like" using a knife or a baseball bat in her defense, because the size difference and the "reasonable belief" of fear is taken into consideration.  Still with me?

However, aside from inside your home (where while not always different, frequently so), the theory has always been to disarm your attacker and to escape.  In other words, don't be stupid and try to stand up to the mugger (again, tired, but the movie "Ghost" comes to mind). 

But back to our petite woman and the big, burly mugger.  There is a large piece of wood nearby and she manages to get her hands on it, and in her fear beats the shit out of the mugger, and in her fear continues to beat him after he is down.  I think we can agree that she has "stood her ground," right?  Now, she was being mugged, and obviously it was self defense, even if she did go overboard.  Police arrive at the scene, investigate, find the woman's claim of self defense to be likely and while the DA would still likely review the report and could decide otherwise, the whole thing is over except for the mental anguish of the woman who the guy attempted to mug.

Now here we don't have the option of giving the guy her purse and then running.  I didn't mention it, but he was attempting some kind of violence, physically threatening her.  She defended herself, and all is good.

Now let's look at what could happen with SYG.  Essentially it is like saying each and every person has the right to play vigilante.  Want my purse?  Like hell, I'm going to shoot you and say it was in self defense because I was "afraid for my life."  Attack me, and even though I have disarmed you and have the ability to leave, I'm going *stand my ground* and mete out the punishment I think you deserve (as is being alleged by Zimmerman).  As written, someone could see a someone hit their partner or their child and feel they are protecting others, also permitted in "SYG."

All because "afraid for my life" is and will always be, under this law, argued as very subjective.  Without SYG, the general public knows they can't just whip out their trusty side arm and *defend* themselves and others with deadly force because *they* believe it is justified.  It is a shitstorm waiting to happen, as we see in the Zimmerman case.  He was licensed to carry a weapon (although with his history, he shouldn't have been issued the permit).  When he got out of his car, he had every belief that he may need to "Stand His Ground."  He went looking for trouble.  Even if his intentions were good and to *protect* his neighbors.  He could have just as easily protected his neighbors from his car, we all know that.  Stand Your Ground provided him with a *reason* to justify what he did.

In theory, this law was made to make people feel safe.  But at the end of the day, even though all laws are basically there to make us feel safe, often when put into practice, they create more problems than they create a feeling of safety.  Because there will always be people like Zimmerman who feel they have the right to use whatever means necessary to *protect* the rights of others.

Does that make any more sense to you?  If it doesn't, then I'm just going to have to try again after if I ever get some sleep (which doesn't seem to be forthcoming).




Hippiekinkster -> RE: Petition: Tell Prison Fellowship: "Stand Your Ground" Is Not a Christian Value (3/30/2012 2:16:24 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: hardcybermaster

the population of England is about 51m, of the US about 310m so you would imagine we would have about 1/6th of deaths due to guns.
Well you killed 13000 people, we managed a staggering 619, approx 1/22th of the number. But hey guns are cool right?
Idiots

That's why we Americans need more guns. If everybody is walking around with an arsenal in plain view, nobody will ever die from firearms. >nods sagely<




Moonhead -> RE: Petition: Tell Prison Fellowship: "Stand Your Ground" Is Not a Christian Value (3/30/2012 4:41:33 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead


quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

quote:

Charlton Heston.


God damn you! God Damn you all to hell!

Whatever quibbles I may have with the (departed) man, he will always rank high in my book just for that scene.

Oh he was a fine actor.
I just found the spectacle of the man who'd had an album by one of America's outiest gun owners yanked by its record company blathering all this gun lobby stuff a bit feeble.
[;)]




Charlton Heston once said, "If your avatar ever shows up at my door in the middle of the night, I'll shoot it". [8D]

He also said "Ice T shouldn't be allowed to make records like Cop Killer. maybe somebody should shoot him."
[;)]




truckinslave -> RE: Petition: Tell Prison Fellowship: "Stand Your Ground" Is Not a Christian Value (3/30/2012 5:49:29 AM)

quote:

This particular law creates more work for district attorneys. 


As opposed to laws that create less work for district attorneys, one imagines.
One cannot imagine what laws those are though.




truckinslave -> RE: Petition: Tell Prison Fellowship: "Stand Your Ground" Is Not a Christian Value (3/30/2012 5:55:32 AM)

quote:

How many were gang bangers ?


Not enough, alas.




Kirata -> RE: Petition: Tell Prison Fellowship: "Stand Your Ground" Is Not a Christian Value (3/30/2012 1:18:57 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady

Considering I haven't slept in nearly 48 hours could be a partial explanation for that. The other part is the pain killers I have been on.

For now, how about you concentrate on taking care of yourself first and getting some rest.

I hope you feel better soon.

K.




DaddySatyr -> RE: Petition: Tell Prison Fellowship: "Stand Your Ground" Is Not a Christian Value (3/31/2012 12:58:58 AM)

I like to compare any gun control argument to history.

Almost every case of tyranny is preceded by gun registration/confiscation. The most poignant being:


Kristallnacht

quote:

ORIGINAL: from the link:

The Night of the Broken Glass (Kristallnacht)--the infamous Nazi rampage against Germany's Jews--took place in November 1938. It was preceded by the confiscation of firearms from the Jewish victims. On Nov. 8, the New York Times reported from Berlin, "Berlin Police Head Announces 'Disarming' of Jews," explaining:

The Berlin Police President, Count Wolf Heinrich von Helldorf, announced that as a result of a police activity in the last few weeks the entire Jewish population of Berlin had been "disarmed" with the confiscation of 2,569 hand weapons, 1,702 firearms and 20,000 rounds of ammunition. Any Jews still found in possession of weapons without valid licenses are threatened with the severest punishment.1

On the evening of Nov. 9, Adolf Hitler, Propaganda Minister Joseph Goebbels, and other Nazi chiefs planned the attack. Orders went out to Nazi security forces: "All Jewish stores are to be destroyed immediately . . . . Jewish synagogues are to be set on fire . . . . The Führer wishes that the police does not intervene. . . . All Jews are to be disarmed. In the event of resistance they are to be shot immediately."2

All hell broke loose on Nov. 10: "Nazis Smash, Loot and Burn Jewish Shops and Temples." "One of the first legal measures issued was an order by Heinrich Himmler, commander of all German police, forbidding Jews to possess any weapons whatever and imposing a penalty of twenty years confinement in a concentration camp upon every Jew found in possession of a weapon hereafter."3 Thousands of Jews were taken away.



I keep repeating: A dear friend once cautioned me: "Michael, before you make a final decision on any position on any issue, take a look around and see who's standing on the same side of the issue with you."

To put it in modern terms: If you're a pro choice democrat and you decide to march against some of the new invasive sonogram laws or something similar, if you looked to your left and saw Rick Santorum, would you be confused and think you wandered into the wrong march?

Conversely, if you're a conservative republican and wanted to protest the new birth control provisions in Obamacare, wouldn't you be a bit surprised to be looking at the dias and see Hillbilly Clinton take the podium? You'd think you were at a DNC fund raiser. Right?

I don't know how freedon-loving people who are so anti-war (of some kinds, apparently) don't realize that if the people have no guns to "stand their ground" government has no incentive not to enslave them.



Peace and comfort,



Michael




kalikshama -> RE: Petition: Tell Prison Fellowship: "Stand Your Ground" Is Not a Christian Value (3/31/2012 7:10:20 AM)

I like to invoke Godwin's Law.

[image]http://images.sodahead.com/polls/000345967/polls_godwins_law_9796_0355_145812_answer_1_xlarge.jpeg[/image]




mnottertail -> RE: Petition: Tell Prison Fellowship: "Stand Your Ground" Is Not a Christian Value (3/31/2012 7:25:53 AM)

I don't know how freedon-loving people who are so anti-war (of some kinds, apparently) don't realize that if the people have no guns to "stand their ground" government has no incentive not to enslave them.


We can all point out the unusual anecdotes.  I might point out that in nazi germany they may have registered and confiscated some guns, but the Kar 98 Ks were handed out pretty freely as I remember to several millions.

Kristallnacht was not about gun registration, extreme non-sequitur..

England is probably no more enslaved than we are.

There is some anecdotes as well. 




DaddySatyr -> RE: Petition: Tell Prison Fellowship: "Stand Your Ground" Is Not a Christian Value (3/31/2012 8:05:11 AM)

Yeah, you're right. Disarming the very group of people they planned on attacking was purely coincidental. It had nothing to do with making the task easier or safer for the jack-booted goons.

How could I not see that disarming and then attacking a group of people are not in any way related?

Oh! I know how. The word: "sentient" comes to mind.

I can't believe you would even try to make that argument with a straight face. To deny the facts of history means you're doomed to repeat the nightmares and I hope and pray by all I hold holy that I'm not around when your Utopia comes into being.



Peace and comfort,



Michael




mnottertail -> RE: Petition: Tell Prison Fellowship: "Stand Your Ground" Is Not a Christian Value (3/31/2012 9:25:06 AM)

Yeah, your cant is strawmanning loutishly here, I didn't say any such a thing.

Your utopian slip is showing.


Now, if we should only confiscate weapons in this country from people of color, or homosexuals, or catholics,  or enemies of the state as defined by such as Richard Nixon...then you have an equivalent arguement.

Otherwise, you are chicken little in a sky is falling movie.

I have an FF(D)L (check that out, you know who you are) and my ATF agent is like a 2nd or 3rd nephew to Hermann Goering (His is spelt the traditional way, Goerhing).

I am not at all worried, there is no way in this country they can take your guns away or even find the fucking things, it would be akin to going thru every phone book published and checking for correct phone numbers, as those books are about 15% or more out of round the day they are published.  If we did that, we could employ every unemployed person on the entire planet for about 20 years and find maybe 5% of them.

It so ain't the same, and it so ain't happening.

BTW, the gun laws started in Germany in 1928 before the Nazis came to power, and the Nazis perverted the law for their own ends as they did all other laws.

The closest we got to Nazis in this country is neo-cons and teabaggers, and they will never ever have complete control of this government, we got guns, you see. 






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