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RE: War on Drugs "killing our children" - 4/3/2012 9:52:57 AM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		Poverty in itself does not kill…and drug use is prolific in and often the cause or contributing factor of poverty.

The same with homelessness

Those who take drugs to alter their reality are mentally ill.

Butch

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RE: War on Drugs "killing our children" - 4/3/2012 10:02:01 AM   
tng


Posts: 57
Joined: 6/28/2007
Status: offline 		So wouldn't treating that mental illness fix the problem?
No more drug use, and thus no more poverty or homelessness, right?


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RE: War on Drugs "killing our children" - 4/3/2012 10:21:23 AM   
MrBukani


Posts: 1920
Joined: 4/18/2010
Status: offline 		I see us more as ants right now.
We are too many suckin on one hive.
We need variety, moderation, adaption and individual preference,

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RE: War on Drugs "killing our children" - 4/3/2012 10:26:52 AM   
MrBukani


Posts: 1920
Joined: 4/18/2010
Status: offline 		Drugs are medicinal.
An Irish Coffee is tasty.

Grandmaster Flash The Message HQ

< Message edited by MrBukani -- 4/3/2012 10:31:59 AM >

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RE: War on Drugs "killing our children" - 4/3/2012 10:39:26 AM   
MrBukani


Posts: 1920
Joined: 4/18/2010
Status: offline 		I dont mind alcohol.
But I heard a lotta scots say they rather have stoners then drunks.
Alcoholics are violent and rude.
Thats why I light it up.
Not to be too rude.
So lighten up.

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RE: War on Drugs "killing our children" - 4/3/2012 3:38:03 PM   
tj444


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
Isn't it shocking that more Americans are under "correctional supervision" - approx 6 million or so, of which approx 2.5 million are currently serving time in prison - than were in the Soviet gulags at their worst? What an appalling statistic.

yes, so many things i would consider minor infractions are felonies in the US.. the govt does this to train people to be good sheeple that do as they are told and dont question how things are done.. The US is a police state.. and its not gonna get any better,.. the controllers/govt just throws out the terrorist shite and the sheeple cower and obey.. after all, cause a fuss and you could wind up in jail..

And the profit thing isnt just the corps making money in housing, feeding, etc at the taxpayer cost but also these prisioners are a source of slave labor earning something like 15 cents/hour.. They are in the same league as human slave traffickers, imo.. just they have the approval of the govt..

These are some of the reasons why I will never become an American citizen.. and why I dont intend to live here forever.. I want to get out in 1 year, 2 years at most.. Many Americans are used to living like this, they dont look beyond their border so they live in a box of their own making, it doesnt occur to them that there are freer countries where you dont get thrown in jail for some minor infraction or medical pot.. (& yes, some people dont need pot for medical conditions but i do believe that pot does help enough people that it should be legal imo).. Its really too bad, cuz i do think the US was a much better country at one time than it is now...

jmo..

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RE: War on Drugs "killing our children" - 4/3/2012 5:08:13 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		That and a good spanking...and while spanking the childs butt say things like...time to grow up

Butch

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RE: War on Drugs "killing our children" - 4/3/2012 5:39:58 PM   
erieangel


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quote:

Those who take drugs to alter their reality are mentally ill.


I have to disagree with that notion.  Your view (as well as mine, btw) may be that these people aren't thinking straight and aren't doing positive things to make their lives better, but that doesn't mean they are clinically mentally ill. 

A didn't read all of the messages posted since last night, but I did scan through them and one theme I seem to see is that there is a lot of misunderstanding about drug use and mental illness.

It was once widely believed, even within the mental health community, that drug use caused certain types of mental illnesses.  In recent years, that belief has been turned on its head.  When I served on my county's MH/MR board the question was often asked "which came first-the mental illness or the addiction?" Even that is no longer because it is accepted that a lot of people who suffer from untreated mental illness will turn to drugs as a way to self medicate.  There is even some studies being conducted about the use of marijuana in connection with schizophrenia.  While the belief is that marijuana worsens symptoms, many schizophrenia patients claim the opposite--that it actually lessens their symptoms. 

The biggest problem with marijuana is the 'counter-culture' use of the drug during the 1960s.  Which is why I don't see it (or any other drug) being decriminalized in the near future.



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RE: War on Drugs "killing our children" - 4/3/2012 5:55:12 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		To me it is common sense and just my opinion...if you want or need to change your reality to the point that it is affecting your life in a negative way then you are mentally ill.

If you are a kid and take a drug because peer pressure and become addicted then not seeking help means you are mentally ill...AND how in the hell will legalizing drugs change a damn thing that counts.

The drugs are changing the chemicals in the brain causing addiction this is still mental illness….AND how the hell will legalizing drugs change a damn thing that counts?

People will not say…hey it is not illegal…lets stop taking drugs…or yea…now the drugs are pure…but lets not take more because it may kill us…Yea AND how the hell will legalizing drugs stop over doses?

What would you think of Johnson & Johnson supplying your son or daughter legal drugs that kill them? General question erieangel not directed at you particularly.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 4/3/2012 6:00:37 PM >

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I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

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RE: War on Drugs "killing our children" - 4/3/2012 7:59:16 PM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Poverty in itself does not kill…and drug use is prolific in and often the cause or contributing factor of poverty.

The same with homelessness

Those who take drugs to alter their reality are mentally ill.

Butch



Butch, I didn't catch any grandma-sicle stories this winter, where the elderly freeze to death in homes they can't afford to heat, but we can always count on the summer crop of grandpop-pies to remind us of just how wrong you are about poverty not killing.

And yes. Plenty of people wind up out there on the streets because drugs have played a destructive role in their lives, and they have made a whole string of shitty decisions. It happens all the time, and guess what? The methodology you are arguing for isn't doing a Goddamn thing to put an end to it.

The vast majority of drug users indulge in the very same way non-alcoholics might enjoy drinking a beer or three, or even heading out with friends, knowing there is a safe ride home.

Is anyone who has a drink, "mentally ill," too?

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RE: War on Drugs "killing our children" - 4/3/2012 8:13:34 PM   
kdsub


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quote:

Is anyone who has a drink, "mentally ill," too


Rich did I not say " If taking drugs is affecting your life in a negative way?... Then yes if taking alcohol affects your life in a negative way then you are mentally ill.

And how much entertainment do you deserve at the expense of hundreds of thousands of suffering drug users?

Being poor in itself does not kill Rich...The vast majority of grand pops and mums who are poor do not freeze to death... Those that do often have money for heat or cooling but don't use it. They die from lack of support and at times stupidity...not poverty. But I do agree the poor with little healthcare are more likely to die so I will amend my statement.

Butch

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Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

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RE: War on Drugs "killing our children" - 4/3/2012 9:50:19 PM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

Is anyone who has a drink, "mentally ill," too


Rich did I not say " If taking drugs is affecting your life in a negative way?...


No, Butch, you didn't, at least not where I was deciding to get back into this. You said:

quote:


Those who take drugs to alter their reality are mentally ill.



What do you mean by "alter their reality?" That might be the sticking point. Does aspirin count, if the reality you wish to alter is a headache? I'm guessing not, which rules out the downer/painkiller people.

People who get into speed aren't usually looking to alter reality. They want to get shit done, and maybe have some amazing sex.

Do you only mean taking drugs that specifically alter the consciousness, the mind-manifesting, psychedelics and hallucinogens? Why is that a problem? Is it mental illness to decide that a sore back is best treated with two beers, a bowl, and a dumb comedy from the recliner, with the sense of time diminished?

Now you can take a hallucinogen like LSD, and alter the hell out of your perceptions of reality for a little while, but there is no addiction issue with the drug, and while the odd tragic dumbass gets away from his keepers and decides he can fly, or stop a bus with his bare hands, there is no such thing as a lethal overdose.

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RE: War on Drugs "killing our children" - 4/4/2012 7:47:49 AM   
tweakabelle


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From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline 		It's odd that, after all these years, some people still don't get it that the overwhelming majority of drug users use those drugs because they enjoy the experiences they receive while 'under the influence'. The vast majority of those drug consumers will suffer either no or negligible adverse health effects from taking drugs.

Of the many millions who take drugs because they enjoy them, a small minority get into trouble with addictive drugs. Just as a small minority of drinkers develop issues with alcohol, while millions can consume alcohol without ever developing a problem with it.

Until this basic fact is grasped, it is difficult to explain the enormous size the the drug enjoying community and how that size is maintained persistently for decades, despite consistent legal persecution. People choose to have fun using drugs. They are prepared to pay large sums of cash to continue getting their fun this way. For most drug users, drugs are a fun experience.

All the moralising in the world isn't going to change that basic fact. All it achieves is the criminalisation of pleasure.

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RE: War on Drugs "killing our children" - 4/4/2012 9:17:47 AM   
kdsub


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Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		Rich I did but it was after my first post. We are getting off the subject some but if the mods don't yell let me explain further.

Do you need drugs for amazing sex?...besides the point. Let me say I have been talking about those that drugs have affected their lives. These people are almost always in pain for some reason or another... Maybe it is peer pressure, wanting to fit in or be cool or being bullied. I am using general terms because there are as many reasons for wanting to forget reality for awhile as there are people. They may have money problems or relationship or self worth... It makes no difference these people take drugs to forget or alter their reality.

I believe anytime you ignore through drug use your situation in life it will affect you in a negative way. I do believe that those that cannot control this desire are mentally ill.

Lets take LSD since you used it... check to see how many emergency room visits last year for its use... Would you want to be on a bus or plane when the pilot or driver is high on LSD or having a flash back?

I do see your points and understand them…I just don’t think they are compelling enough to make these drugs readily available to the general public. I am not a fanatic… I like my glass of wine or a few beers as well as the next guy. Weed I don’t use but can see a good argument for its legalization…but not some of the other drugs we have been talking about.

I don’t believe in the well…” alcohol is a drug and it kills why not make it illegal too” argument. I am a realist… yes alcohol kills but its use will not be appealed. But… why must we have even more killers readily available to our children and those with less control then you or I?

Butch



< Message edited by kdsub -- 4/4/2012 10:15:45 AM >

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I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

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RE: War on Drugs "killing our children" - 4/4/2012 6:24:42 PM   
tazzygirl


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Joined: 10/12/2007
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quote:

Poverty in itself does not kill…and drug use is prolific in and often the cause or contributing factor of poverty.

The same with homelessness

Those who take drugs to alter their reality are mentally ill.


I guess losing a job, savings and home wouldnt be a cause of homelessness.

I suppose mental illnesses not related to any drug use wouldnt be a reason.

Had the tsunamis struck Scandinavia or the west coast of America, people would have died but in nothing like the numbers who died on the shores of the Indian Ocean. A flood warning system such as that employed in Britain after the catastrophic floods of 1953 would have evacuated most people to safety well in time. Communications would have been affected but whole stretches of coastline would not have been cut off for days as they were last week in Indonesia. The beaches would not still be lined with bodies nearly a week after the disaster. The affected areas would not be facing starvation and infectious disease for weeks to come.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/personal-view/3613933/Disasters-dont-kill-people-poverty-does.html

Social factors are not the same as diseases or accidents, but Dr. Galea argues that they are equivalent to a behaviors like smoking, and that, as with smoking, there is evidence of the mechanism involved. He said that the causal chain between, for example, poverty and death from heart disease has many well-established links.

Dr. Galea also said that poverty results in poor access to health screening, poor access to quality care for those who actually have heart disease, greater vulnerability to stresses associated with heart disease and a greater likelihood of engaging in unhealthy behavior.

“In some ways,” Dr. Galea added, “the question is not ‘Why should we think of poverty as a cause of death?’ but rather ‘Why should we not think of poverty as a cause of death?’ ”

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/05/health/05social.html

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RE: War on Drugs "killing our children" - 4/4/2012 6:32:12 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

Poverty in itself does not kill.


I don't want to derail the thread, but I can't let this pass without a protest. Hunger, rooted in poverty, kills people every day. According to the UN's World Food Programme, hunger is humankind's number-one health risk, killing more people than AIDS, malaria, and tuberculosis combined.

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RE: War on Drugs "killing our children" - 4/4/2012 7:34:41 PM   
TheHeretic


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From: California, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Rich I did but it was after my first post. We are getting off the subject some but if the mods don't yell let me explain further.

Do you need drugs for amazing sex?...besides the point. Let me say I have been talking about those that drugs have affected their lives. These people are almost always in pain for some reason or another... Maybe it is peer pressure, wanting to fit in or be cool or being bullied. I am using general terms because there are as many reasons for wanting to forget reality for awhile as there are people. They may have money problems or relationship or self worth... It makes no difference these people take drugs to forget or alter their reality.

I believe anytime you ignore through drug use your situation in life it will affect you in a negative way. I do believe that those that cannot control this desire are mentally ill.

Lets take LSD since you used it... check to see how many emergency room visits last year for its use... Would you want to be on a bus or plane when the pilot or driver is high on LSD or having a flash back?

I do see your points and understand them…I just don’t think they are compelling enough to make these drugs readily available to the general public. I am not a fanatic… I like my glass of wine or a few beers as well as the next guy. Weed I don’t use but can see a good argument for its legalization…but not some of the other drugs we have been talking about.

I don’t believe in the well…” alcohol is a drug and it kills why not make it illegal too” argument. I am a realist… yes alcohol kills but its use will not be appealed. But… why must we have even more killers readily available to our children and those with less control then you or I?

Butch





Butch, I'd say this is standard thread drift, as we go from which figure of the day said something, and reasoned discussion of the subject that someone raised. As long as you don't call me an ignorant motherfucker or some such, and I can make my case without going to far into explicit discussion of illegal activity, we should be good with the mods, here.

In the spirit of that, I'm not going to address tweaker sex (no reference to the poster with a similar screen name), or acid orgasms, or even fun with the munchies.

There isn't just one model of what addiction is.

There are some drugs which are inherently addictive. Meth and opiates are excellent examples. Any user of these can get hooked. That's not to say that addiction is automatic with any use. The military feeds our fighter pilots speed, here and there, for example, and not everybody who takes vicodin after dental work winds up dead in an alley, with a needle sticking out of their arm. There is probably a food item in your kitchen right now that was delivered by a trucker who needed a little go to get to his door on time.

Then we have a certain percentage of people who are inherently inclined to addiction. They can get hooked on anything. Alcohol is popular, because it's cheap, it's legal, and you don't go to jail if you have some in the trunk of your car. Googling for statistics isn't my idea of a good time, but next time you look at drug numbers, look at alcohol as well, and at the ER visits, accident fatalities, actual overdoses for marijuana. If we could shift a percentage of the people who simply are going to get fucked up on something every day from booze to weed, imagine the suffering we could alleviate.

The reason nobody is going to ban booze is because we tried that, and it was a spectacular failure. Just a the war on drugs has been. Organized crime. Violence in the streets. Corruption. A spreading culture of casual contempt for the law.

I'm not suggesting we put Oxycontin next to the M&M's. I'd want legal marijuana controlled, sold, and taxed in much the way we do with alcohol. I think we should lift the bans on hallucinogens, and maybe sell them with a waiting period, and some releases to be signed. I currently have to show ID, and sign in to a tracking system to buy some springtime sinus medication because of the laws to cntrol speed, why not just make the tweakers sign for it? Just getting properly composed and manufactured drugs, as opposed to the chemical hellbroth of antihistamines and tractor starting fluid on the market today, would go a long way to reducing the harm they do to themselves.

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RE: War on Drugs "killing our children" - 4/4/2012 8:04:50 PM   
Marini


Posts: 3629
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Status: offline 		Interesting thread tweaky,

As usual, I have more questions than answers.

I do feel, that at the heart of a lot of the issues discussed here, are some mental health issues.

Not everyone that uses prescription and non-prescription drugs, and abuses alcohol, and other substances are suffering from some form of mental health issue.....
BUT, I would bet the house, that many people that use/abuse drugs and alcohol, have some minor or major mental health issues.

Many people are prone to self-medication, and use a variety of ways to do it.

Recreational drug users, hard-core abusers, those that are seriously mentally ill, those that are attempting to numb the pain, those trying to forget the pain, those that just want to have fun, those that want to explore..... the list goes on.

And, like most of those that were not born last night, this is not a one size or situation fits all.

With the state of the economy and the world these days, you don't need a crystal ball to realize that substance abuse, recreational and non-recreational drug use, and alcohol abuse, will continue to rise.

The issue is how do we help people, and what are we going to do {if anything} about it?
Peace


< Message edited by Marini -- 4/4/2012 8:07:28 PM >

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RE: War on Drugs "killing our children" - 4/4/2012 8:17:49 PM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

I guess losing a job, savings and home wouldnt be a cause of homelessness.


Personally, I think losing a home *would* be a cause of homelessness, Tazzy. Though, perhaps, I'm taking a UK-centric view of the matter at hand. We're rather lefty about certain things this side of the pond in comparison to you hard-nosed North Americans. :-)

< Message edited by PeonForHer -- 4/4/2012 8:18:51 PM >

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RE: War on Drugs "killing our children" - 4/4/2012 9:31:05 PM   
tweakabelle


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quote:

The issue is how do we help people, and what are we going to do {if anything} about it?



Yes, Marini,(so nice to see you posting again!) this is the central issue. How do we best help?

Criminalising the use of non-addictive drugs can hardly be said to be 'helping'. This policy creates a problem where none need exist. It takes an ordinary citizen eg. one of the many tens of millions of pot smokers in the West, and turns them into a criminal solely through their pleasure choices. Rank stupidity.

With 'hard' drugs, the first step in helping people is keeping them alive. It's far more productive to help the living rather than the dead. This entails approaching the issue as a health/medical issue rather than a moral or legal one. Almost every death associated with 'hard' drug use could be prevented through drug administration in a safe hygienic medical/health oriented environment.

What is clear is that the current discredited policies are causing deaths, unnecessary deaths at every level in the production, distribution and consumption of drugs.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 4/4/2012 9:32:31 PM >

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