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The Republican War on Broccoli - 4/4/2012 7:09:05 AM   
Musicmystery


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Bush I banned broccoli from Air Force One. Protesting farmers descended on Pennsylvania Avenue with truckloads of broccoli. Fortunately, Barbara Bush likes broccoli.

Now Justice (<--it pains me to write that irony) Scalia, who apparently cut ECON 101 his freshman year, thinks health care is like being forced to buy broccoli. Maybe he's just being loyal to the Reagan Administration, who got him this gig. Maybe he's concerned broccoli is never mentioned in the Bible.

I grew up with the government Food Pyramid; that was replaced with "My Plate," which -- have a look at the picture -- includes broccoli!

Is this just more obstructionism? If the Obama administration recommends eating, it's time to oppose eating? Especially broccoli? What's the deal there? Romans 14: 6-9 talks about eating meat--but it also talks about abstaining from meat, with equal blessing. Why don't Republicans like women or broccoli (I enjoy both)?

Time to be aware of just what the candidates are thinking:

Below is a quick synopsis of what the four Republican candidates for President think about the individual mandate (for buying health insurance). And broccoli.

Newt Gingrich was for the individual mandate before he was against it. Does anyone remember the 1990s when Clinton was President? The Republicans were against what they called “Hillarycare” and came up with the idea of everyone buying health insurance (and now they’re against “Obamacare,” which is basically the Republican plan from the ‘90s). Newt was one of many Republicans who argued for the individual mandate. Now he says people should be able to “opt out” of the mandate. Which contradicts the whole fucking idea of a mandate. It makes no sense. Everyone must buy broccoli, except the people who opt out.

Mitt Romney was also for the individual mandate before he was against it. The state of Massachusetts has a mandate, which Romney signed into law. Look at the first two letters of “mandate” (MA). If he’s the Republican candidate it will be very hard for him to explain why every citizen of Massachusetts must buy broccoli, but nobody else should.

Ron Paul is against the mandate because he’s an insane gray-skin-alien homunculus simulacrum from another galaxy. Not that there’s anything wrong with that. Who knows WTF he’s thinking? You do have to give him props for looking approximately human. And when he talks, he seems to use words and grammar in the way a normal human would (but with a squeaky alien voice). He resembles that extraterrestrial from the “X Files” who kills innocent humans who don’t own broccoli. Maybe that’s why nobody takes him seriously.

Rick Santorum owns a very very special version of the Bible that says Jesus believed only rich people should have healthcare. Jesus didn’t heal the sick or comfort the poor, because that would be socialist. Jesus was sent to bless the one percenters, who will pass through the eye of the needle as easily as a camel does. And if we allow the government to “mandate” (which Santorum opposes because man dates are gay), next we’ll have mandogdates. It’s a slippery slope. A frothy mixture that leads to a slippery slope in your sweet delicious ass. Jesus hates broccoli because it’s gay. Plus, broccoli is socialist.


http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/03/29/1078796/-The-Individual-Mandate-And-Republicans-And-Broccoli
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RE: The Republican War on Broccoli - 4/4/2012 7:22:26 AM   
kalikshama


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The broccoli bit is at about 3:00:
http://www.colbertnation.com/the-colbert-report-videos/411272/march-28-2012/march-28--2012---pt--1

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RE: The Republican War on Broccoli - 4/4/2012 7:27:54 AM   
Musicmystery


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LOL at "Burial Insurance" and "Broccoli Obama."

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RE: The Republican War on Broccoli - 4/4/2012 7:41:36 AM   
kalikshama


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I believe it's "Baroccoli Obama"




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RE: The Republican War on Broccoli - 4/4/2012 7:52:51 AM   
Iamsemisweet


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What a great thread to wake up to!

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RE: The Republican War on Broccoli - 4/4/2012 10:31:56 AM   
Truthiness


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Now Justice (<--it pains me to write that irony) Scalia, who apparently cut ECON 101 his freshman year, thinks health care is like being forced to buy broccoli.



To put the broccoli thing in perspective (borrowing an article from Forbes).

quote:

This is why during oral argument the conservative justices asked about broccoli and burial insurance, which apparently confused leftish commentators. Krugman declared that “health insurance is nothing like broccoli.” E.J. Dionne complained about “weird hypotheticals … which have nothing to do with an uninsured person getting expensive treatment that others have to pay for.”

If the government can require you to buy medical insurance because your failure to act can be construed as affecting interstate commerce, is there anything that Washington cannot do? Your failure to eat broccoli, or exercise, harms your health, raising medical costs and insurance premiums for everyone else. Your death while indigent imposes burial costs on others. Your failure to buy an automobile helped ease General Motors into bankruptcy. Your failure to ride a bus harms the national mass transit system. Your failure to purchase Lehman Brothers securities helped push that company into bankruptcy and hurt all of Wall Street. Your decision to have sex creates children, transmits diseases, reduces time at work, and otherwise affects interstate commerce.

If no line can be drawn, then the power being advocated is unlimited. In fact, the power to regulate inaction is far greater than to regulate action. In the latter case the government is targeting something specific and discrete; individuals can avoid government control by no longer so acting. But while you sit and read this article you are not doing a multitude of things, all of which, if aggregated with the nonaction of others, could be considered to affect interstate commerce. There literally is no limit to what government could do under this doctrine.

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RE: The Republican War on Broccoli - 4/4/2012 10:35:18 AM   
mnottertail


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That does indeed answer the lack of any insightful perspective.

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RE: The Republican War on Broccoli - 4/4/2012 10:51:27 AM   
kalikshama


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Broccoli and Bad Faith

By PAUL KRUGMAN
Published: March 29, 2012

Nobody knows what the Supreme Court will decide with regard to the Affordable Care Act. But, after this week’s hearings, it seems quite possible that the court will strike down the “mandate” — the requirement that individuals purchase health insurance — and maybe the whole law. Removing the mandate would make the law much less workable, while striking down the whole thing would mean denying health coverage to 30 million or more Americans.

Given the stakes, one might have expected all the court’s members to be very careful in speaking about both health care realities and legal precedents. In reality, however, the second day of hearings suggested that the justices most hostile to the law don’t understand, or choose not to understand, how insurance works. And the third day was, in a way, even worse, as antireform justices appeared to embrace any argument, no matter how flimsy, that they could use to kill reform.

Let’s start with the already famous exchange in which Justice Antonin Scalia compared the purchase of health insurance to the purchase of broccoli, with the implication that if the government can compel you to do the former, it can also compel you to do the latter. That comparison horrified health care experts all across America because health insurance is nothing like broccoli.

Why? When people choose not to buy broccoli, they don’t make broccoli unavailable to those who want it. But when people don’t buy health insurance until they get sick — which is what happens in the absence of a mandate — the resulting worsening of the risk pool makes insurance more expensive, and often unaffordable, for those who remain. As a result, unregulated health insurance basically doesn’t work, and never has.

There are at least two ways to address this reality — which is, by the way, very much an issue involving interstate commerce, and hence a valid federal concern. One is to tax everyone — healthy and sick alike — and use the money raised to provide health coverage. That’s what Medicare and Medicaid do. The other is to require that everyone buy insurance, while aiding those for whom this is a financial hardship.

Are these fundamentally different approaches? Is requiring that people pay a tax that finances health coverage O.K., while requiring that they purchase insurance is unconstitutional? It’s hard to see why — and it’s not just those of us without legal training who find the distinction strange. Here’s what Charles Fried — who was Ronald Reagan’s solicitor general — said in a recent interview with The Washington Post: “I’ve never understood why regulating by making people go buy something is somehow more intrusive than regulating by making them pay taxes and then giving it to them.”

Indeed, conservatives used to like the idea of required purchases as an alternative to taxes, which is why the idea for the mandate originally came not from liberals but from the ultra-conservative Heritage Foundation. (By the way, another pet conservative project — private accounts to replace Social Security — relies on, yes, mandatory contributions from individuals.)

So has there been a real change in legal thinking here? Mr. Fried thinks that it’s just politics — and other discussions in the hearings strongly support that perception.

I was struck, in particular, by the argument over whether requiring that state governments participate in an expansion of Medicaid — an expansion, by the way, for which they would foot only a small fraction of the bill — constituted unacceptable “coercion.” One would have thought that this claim was self-evidently absurd. After all, states are free to opt out of Medicaid if they choose; Medicaid’s “coercive” power comes only from the fact that the federal government provides aid to states that are willing to follow the program’s guidelines. If you offer to give me a lot of money, but only if I perform certain tasks, is that servitude?

Yet several of the conservative justices seemed to defend the proposition that a federally funded expansion of a program in which states choose to participate because they receive federal aid represents an abuse of power, merely because states have become dependent on that aid. Justice Sonia Sotomayor seemed boggled by this claim: “We’re going to say to the federal government, the bigger the problem, the less your powers are. Because once you give that much money, you can’t structure the program the way you want.” And she was right: It’s a claim that makes no sense — not unless your goal is to kill health reform using any argument at hand.

As I said, we don’t know how this will go. But it’s hard not to feel a sense of foreboding — and to worry that the nation’s already badly damaged faith in the Supreme Court’s ability to stand above politics is about to take another severe hit.

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RE: The Republican War on Broccoli - 4/4/2012 10:55:19 AM   
kalikshama


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Judicial activists in the Supreme Court

By E.J. Dionne Jr.

Three days of Supreme Court arguments over the health-care law demonstrated for all to see that conservative justices are prepared to act as an alternative legislature, diving deeply into policy details as if they were members of the Senate Health, Education, Labor and Pensions Committee.

Senator, excuse me, Justice Samuel Alito quoted Congressional Budget Office figures on Tuesday to talk about the insurance costs of the young. On Wednesday, Chief Justice John Roberts sounded like the House whip in discussing whether parts of the law could stand if other parts fell. He noted that without various provisions, Congress “wouldn’t have been able to put together, cobble together, the votes to get it through.” Tell me again, was this a courtroom or a lobbyist’s office?

It fell to the court’s liberals — the so-called “judicial activists,” remember? — to remind their conservative brethren that legislative power is supposed to rest in our government’s elected branches.

Justice Stephen Breyer noted that some of the issues raised by opponents of the law were about “the merits of the bill,” a proper concern of Congress, not the courts. And in arguing for restraint, Justice Sonia Sotomayor asked what was wrong with leaving as much discretion as possible “in the hands of the people who should be fixing this, not us.” It was nice to be reminded that we’re a democracy, not a judicial dictatorship.

The conservative justices were obsessed with weird hypotheticals. If the federal government could make you buy health insurance, might it require you to buy broccoli, health club memberships, cellphones, burial services and cars? All of which have nothing to do with an uninsured person getting expensive treatment that others — often taxpayers — have to pay for.

Liberals should learn from this display that there is no point in catering to today’s hard-line conservatives. The individual mandate was a conservative idea that President Obama adopted to preserve the private market in health insurance rather than move toward a government-financed, single-payer system. What he got back from conservatives was not gratitude but charges of socialism — for adopting their own proposal.

The irony is that if the court’s conservatives overthrow the mandate, they will hasten the arrival of a more government-heavy system. Justice Anthony Kennedy even hinted that it might be more “honest” if government simply used “the tax power to raise revenue and to just have a national health service, single-payer.” Remember those words.

One of the most astonishing arguments came from Roberts, who spoke with alarm that people would be required to purchase coverage for issues they might never confront. He specifically cited “pediatric services” and “maternity services.”

Well, yes, men pay to cover maternity services while women pay for treating prostate problems. It’s called health insurance. Would it be better to segregate the insurance market along gender lines?

The court’s right-wing justices seemed to forget that the best argument for the individual mandate was made in 1989 by a respected conservative, the Heritage Foundation’s Stuart Butler.

“If a man is struck down by a heart attack in the street,” Butler said, “Americans will care for him whether or not he has insurance. If we find that he has spent his money on other things rather than insurance, we may be angry but we will not deny him services — even if that means more prudent citizens end up paying the tab. A mandate on individuals recognizes this implicit contract.”


Justice Antonin Scalia seemed to reject the sense of solidarity that Butler embraced. When Solicitor General Donald Verrilli explained that “we’ve obligated ourselves so that people get health care,” Scalia replied coolly: “Well, don’t obligate yourself to that.” Does this mean letting Butler’s uninsured guy die?

Slate’s Dahlia Lithwick called attention to this exchange and was eloquent in describing its meaning. “This case isn’t so much about freedom from government-mandated broccoli or gyms,” Lithwick wrote. “It’s about freedom from our obligations to one another . . . the freedom to ignore the injured” and to “walk away from those in peril.”

This is what conservative justices will do if they strike down or cripple the health-care law. And a court that gave us Bush v. Gore and Citizens United will prove conclusively that it sees no limits on its power, no need to defer to those elected to make our laws. A Supreme Court that is supposed to give us justice will instead deliver ideology.




< Message edited by kalikshama -- 4/4/2012 10:58:11 AM >


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RE: The Republican War on Broccoli - 4/4/2012 11:04:40 AM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

If the government can require you to buy medical insurance because your failure to act can be construed as affecting interstate commerce, is there anything that Washington cannot do? Your failure to eat broccoli, or exercise, harms your health, raising medical costs and insurance premiums for everyone else. Your death while indigent imposes burial costs on others. Your failure to buy an automobile helped ease General Motors into bankruptcy. Your failure to ride a bus harms the national mass transit system. Your failure to purchase Lehman Brothers securities helped push that company into bankruptcy and hurt all of Wall Street. Your decision to have sex creates children, transmits diseases, reduces time at work, and otherwise affects interstate commerce.


OK, let's just take this bit of silliness.

First, broccoli is not the only path to good health, so mandating it isn't at all like health insurance, for which the only option is independent wealth. Flawed from the first.

Then, moving from public burdens, "failure to buy an automobile" for the good of General Motors, or the bus, or Lehman Bros. stock--these are private benefits, not public good. And this ignores that buying automobiles, choosing transport, owning securities--all can be done without doing business with these companies; no one is telling you WHICH insurance to buy. And the childhood related issues ARE regulated--disease, for instance, the Family Medical Leave Act, and neither of which need affect interstate commerce.

When people cough up such silliness, they don't have better arguments.

Bottom line--they don't like that finally health care is getting addressed.

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RE: The Republican War on Broccoli - 4/4/2012 11:06:55 AM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

If no line can be drawn, then the power being advocated is unlimited.


Here's the second bit of silliness. It's a long-standing fallacy, Zeno's Paradox.

If no line can be drawn as to the exact moment at which you became ill, then you aren't ill, right? If we can't pinpoint the moment of death, then you never die.

But as shown above, of course we can draw a line, and do.

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RE: The Republican War on Broccoli - 4/4/2012 3:56:07 PM   
Truthiness


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

And this ignores that buying automobiles, choosing transport, owning securities--all can be done without doing business with these companies.



So can taking care of oneself medically; therefore I'd like to retain the right to opt out of buying something I don't need.

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RE: The Republican War on Broccoli - 4/4/2012 4:14:11 PM   
SoftBonds


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You are missing the forest for the trees.
Reagan built a perfectly good communist health care system for the US when he mandated that those who can afford health insurance, or are rich enough to pay their own medical bills, should pay for everyone else.
A mandate would dismantle that communist system and replace it with a capitalist system, which would reveal to everyone that Reagan was a Commie.
This would break a lot of conservative hearts, so the conservatives have to do everything possible to kill the mandate.

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RE: The Republican War on Broccoli - 4/4/2012 7:08:56 PM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

So can taking care of oneself medically


Actually, no it can't, for a myriad of health care needs.

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RE: The Republican War on Broccoli - 4/4/2012 7:41:13 PM   
xssve


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I dunno, I'd still rather see a payroll tax, on everybody, and a single payer system - I don't like the idea of mandating you buy anything, it had better be worded very fucking carefully.

If the upper quintile had to pay FICA, I can hear the screaming now - flat taxes would become highly unpopular with the quickness.

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RE: The Republican War on Broccoli - 4/4/2012 7:46:48 PM   
xssve


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On the flipside, if the mandated insurance bill is not considered a tax, congress can't spend it on pork like they do the payroll tax - so it might be the better option.



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RE: The Republican War on Broccoli - 4/5/2012 10:39:17 AM   
Musicmystery


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Honestly, it's all semantics. You're required to pay it--what does it matter through mandate or fees or taxes?

It's the same blindness that led people to push for federal cuts at the expense of state and local increases larger than the federal gains.

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RE: The Republican War on Broccoli - 4/5/2012 10:45:21 AM   
Truthiness


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

OK, let's just take this bit of silliness.



Yep, the whole thing is silly, which is kinda the point. To me, the logic behind pushing everyone to pay for insurance is equally as faulty for the theoretical logic behind pushing to make everyone pay for the other examples.

As came during the arguments though, health care is a "unique situation"...until after opening that door the government decided it wanted to push something else, then we'd see the logic why it too was a "unique situation."


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RE: The Republican War on Broccoli - 4/5/2012 10:47:34 AM   
SoftBonds


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Truthiness


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

OK, let's just take this bit of silliness.



Yep, the whole thing is silly, which is kinda the point. To me, the logic behind pushing everyone to pay for insurance is equally as faulty for the theoretical logic behind pushing to make everyone pay for the other examples.

As came during the arguments though, health care is a "unique situation"...until after opening that door the government decided it wanted to push something else, then we'd see the logic why it too was a "unique situation."




Then are you for or against Reagan's law requiring hospitals to provide the most expensive possible care to people who can't/decide not to pay for insurance?

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RE: The Republican War on Broccoli - 4/5/2012 2:16:02 PM   
joether


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
Mitt Romney was also for the individual mandate before he was against it. The state of Massachusetts has a mandate, which Romney signed into law. Look at the first two letters of “mandate” (MA). If he’s the Republican candidate it will be very hard for him to explain why every citizen of Massachusetts must buy broccoli, but nobody else should.


This is a pretty funny post MM.

However, I have to point out (yet again on this forum), that a citizen of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts that can not gain health coverage through their employer can gain several plans through insurance companies and the Commonwealth. Those individuals that can not afford to pay for health coverage (the poor, college students over the age of 26, unemployed workers after COBRA runs out, etc) can STILL access several health care plans without paying a penny. They still however, have to pay for drugs, but the cost is also reduced.

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