RE: The Best Health Care System in the World?

RE: The Best Health Care System in the World? (Full Version)

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Aswad -> RE: The Best Health Care System in the World? (4/5/2012 10:27:48 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SoftBonds You know what I'd love to see, [...] ... is what I've got, except I also benefit from economies of scale coming into play since the whole population is covered. There are some great clinics in the US, such as the MR people at Mayo being pretty highly skilled, but the lack of consistency is a problem. Evidence based medicine benefits from a high number of patients being treated, and a high degree of consistency in the treatments offered, both of which are lost when every patient is a special case with a special budget. The trick, IMO, is having a solid universal health care baseline, while offering the option of paying for better care (such as the aforementioned department, which has gone as far as to invent new imaging modalities for their patients, later published in prominent journals). Currently, the USA lacks the baseline, while most places with universalized lack the option of privilege (which is probably because it's based on false notions of equality). Combining the two can only benefit all parties, except the blood sucking middle men. Now, here's a funny point... Under the current economical model, money is a form of debt that is repaid by future labors at a lower rate than it grows, and the workforce are indentured servants that labor under the same system we so dislike when it's applied to prostitutes with barcodes. With this in mind, it's interesting to note the difference between slave labor and free labor is between an asset and an expense. Since slavery is now the norm, the situation has reverted: it is now the best course of action (financially) to ensure the health of the pool of slaves, rather than ridding oneself of expenses that aren't turning a profit. Health, al-Aswad.

DomKen -> RE: The Best Health Care System in the World? (4/5/2012 10:47:32 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SoftBonds Can we PLEASE cut the medicare age to 55 and raise the medicare tax rate to 2% to cover the increased costs? Taking those folks out of the health insurance system would save so much money! Heck, we can even do it slowly, raise the tax rate by .05% per year, and lower the age by 1 year per year... Why isn't some congressperson proposing this??? Because it would quickly become obvious that Medicare for all would work quite well.

dcnovice -> RE: The Best Health Care System in the World? (4/5/2012 6:13:23 PM)
quote: I wonder what the full toll of all this unnecessary hassle is on the poor patient ..... The saga continued today with calls to the hospital (need to jump through more hoops to get my sleep study and pay .63 a page), the insurance company (which said, no, they don't need the sleep study), and the medical supply company (which didn't return my call). Had I not been at work, I would literally have started screaming.

Lucylastic -> RE: The Best Health Care System in the World? (4/5/2012 6:15:32 PM)
DC, Im really sorry you are having such a bitch of a time, truly hon I hope it sorts out well for you sooon.

Musicmystery -> RE: The Best Health Care System in the World? (4/5/2012 7:19:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SoftBonds Can we PLEASE cut the medicare age to 55 and raise the medicare tax rate to 2% to cover the increased costs? Taking those folks out of the health insurance system would save so much money! Heck, we can even do it slowly, raise the tax rate by .05% per year, and lower the age by 1 year per year... Why isn't some congressperson proposing this??? That would also help unemployment tremendously; quite a few 50-somethings stay in the workforce only for insurance reasons.

tweakabelle -> RE: The Best Health Care System in the World? (4/5/2012 10:02:08 PM)
How do we judge a good healthcare system from a bad one? One way of assessing this might be to compare the figues for amenable mortality, where amenable mortality is: "The concept of "amenable mortality" refers to unnecessary and untimely premature deaths from certain causes that are potentially preventable with timely and effective health care. Amenable mortality is one of many indicators used to measure health system performance across nations." It certainly makes a lot of sense that a good healthcare system will be more successful at preventing preventable deaths than a bad healthcare system. A comprehensive study of amenable deaths has been carried out by the Commonwealth Fund and can be read here. A doco film based on the study called "Money Driven Medicine" is available here The study's key finding are: In 2006–2007, amenable mortality accounted for 24 percent of deaths under age 75 in the 16 countries studied. Rates were lowest in France, with 55.0 deaths per 100,000 people, followed by Australia (56.9 per 100,000) and Italy (59.9 per 100,000). The highest levels were in the United States, with 95.5 deaths per 100,000 people, followed by the United Kingdom (82.5 per 100,000) and Denmark (80.1 per 100,000). If the U.S. had achieved levels of amenable mortality seen in the three best-performing countries—France, Australia, and Italy—84,300 fewer people under age 75 would have died* in 2006–2007. The authors found that the US's poor performance - it came last of the 16 high income countries studied - was due to: "The United States's poor performance and relatively slow improvement compared with other nations may be attributable to "the lack of universal coverage and high costs of care."" The world's "best" healthcare system??? Definitely not the US one, according to this indicator and study. Tens of thousands of wholly unnecessary preventable deaths occur annually in the US. The study found that these deaths are a direct consequence of the inadequacies of the US healthcare system.

Marini -> RE: The Best Health Care System in the World? (4/5/2012 10:13:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle I wonder what the full toll of all this unnecessary hassle is on the poor patient ..... There is a completely unnecessary level of decision making involved that projects the insurance company into a position where it effectively holds a veto over the therapy offered to the patient. The attendant stress on the patient, the delays, the uncertainty, the worry must complicate the health issues involved, even if the insurance company decides in its goodness to come to the party and fork out for the procedure/medicine/therapy in question. All this happens at the worst possible time for the patients health outcome too. The effects on the patient's health can only be negative. Even worse, the party wielding the effective veto - the insurance company - places its own financial interests first NOT the health of the patient. I'm glad I'm not subject to this regime. If I get ill or require hospitalisation, I want all involved to put my health interests at the top of their agenda at all times. It is appalling that the financial interests of a profit-driven entity could take precedence over the health needs and priorities of the ill and the sick and be in a position to influence the quality of service offered to the ill and the sick. A situation like this would be unthinkable here. The "best"healthcare in the world???? Not by a long long shot. THIS <-- similar story Premiums--have gone up New deductibles--have been created Co-pay's - a few have gone up Tweaky, you have to love Capitalism! If they could outsource health care, we would have to go to India to see a doctor. Damn, too bad they can't do that. Also, I am sure I have more "little goodies" that I am not aware of, just yet. I have my health insurance customer service on speed dial, and have memorized their customer service/information hours. I call and check just about everything.

Marini -> RE: The Best Health Care System in the World? (4/5/2012 10:29:17 PM)
quote: Now, here's a funny point... Under the current economical model, money is a form of debt that is repaid by future labors at a lower rate than it grows, and the workforce are indentured servants that labor under the same system we so dislike when it's applied to prostitutes with barcodes. With this in mind, it's interesting to note the difference between slave labor and free labor is between an asset and an expense. Since slavery is now the norm, the situation has reverted: it is now the best course of action (financially) to ensure the health of the pool of slaves, rather than ridding oneself of expenses that aren't turning a profit. Health, al-Aswad. Aswad, you rock! [sm=goodpost.gif] Sad thing is, many don't see the slaves nor realize that they are often not the asset, they think they are!

tweakabelle -> RE: The Best Health Care System in the World? (4/6/2012 5:06:16 AM)
A healthcare industry view of the human body [image]local://upfiles/504455/468E54475324413AB539847C540D910F.jpg[/image]

SoftBonds -> RE: The Best Health Care System in the World? (4/6/2012 6:48:04 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle How do we judge a good healthcare system from a bad one? One way of assessing this might be to compare the figues for amenable mortality, where amenable mortality is: "The concept of "amenable mortality" refers to unnecessary and untimely premature deaths from certain causes that are potentially preventable with timely and effective health care. Amenable mortality is one of many indicators used to measure health system performance across nations." It certainly makes a lot of sense that a good healthcare system will be more successful at preventing preventable deaths than a bad healthcare system. A comprehensive study of amenable deaths has been carried out by the Commonwealth Fund and can be read here. A doco film based on the study called "Money Driven Medicine" is available here The study's key finding are: In 2006–2007, amenable mortality accounted for 24 percent of deaths under age 75 in the 16 countries studied. Rates were lowest in France, with 55.0 deaths per 100,000 people, followed by Australia (56.9 per 100,000) and Italy (59.9 per 100,000). The highest levels were in the United States, with 95.5 deaths per 100,000 people, followed by the United Kingdom (82.5 per 100,000) and Denmark (80.1 per 100,000). If the U.S. had achieved levels of amenable mortality seen in the three best-performing countries—France, Australia, and Italy—84,300 fewer people under age 75 would have died* in 2006–2007. The authors found that the US's poor performance - it came last of the 16 high income countries studied - was due to: "The United States's poor performance and relatively slow improvement compared with other nations may be attributable to "the lack of universal coverage and high costs of care."" The world's "best" healthcare system??? Definitely not the US one, according to this indicator and study. Tens of thousands of wholly unnecessary preventable deaths occur annually in the US. The study found that these deaths are a direct consequence of the inadequacies of the US healthcare system. This isn't as damning of our system as I would have expected. We are not that much worse than the UK and Denmark, both of which have universal care. I wonder what the cause of the British system's poor performance is? Cost cutting by conservatives???

dcnovice -> RE: The Best Health Care System in the World? (4/10/2012 8:05:58 PM)
UPDATE: Haven't been able the get the medical-supply company to return my calls for days now. Still sleeping like crap without the mask.

Marini -> RE: The Best Health Care System in the World? (4/10/2012 8:14:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: dcnovice UPDATE: Haven't been able the get the medical-supply company to return my calls for days now. Still sleeping like crap without the mask. Thanks for the update! Damn, dc that sucks. I hope you are calling them every day, write down the names of the people that you talk to, and escalate immediately to a manager {make sure you have time to hold}. What people WITH insurance are having to go through these days, is a damn shame. Good luck, keep us updated.

Lucylastic -> RE: The Best Health Care System in the World? (4/10/2012 9:13:52 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SoftBonds quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle How do we judge a good healthcare system from a bad one? One way of assessing this might be to compare the figues for amenable mortality, where amenable mortality is: "The concept of "amenable mortality" refers to unnecessary and untimely premature deaths from certain causes that are potentially preventable with timely and effective health care. Amenable mortality is one of many indicators used to measure health system performance across nations." It certainly makes a lot of sense that a good healthcare system will be more successful at preventing preventable deaths than a bad healthcare system. A comprehensive study of amenable deaths has been carried out by the Commonwealth Fund and can be read here. A doco film based on the study called "Money Driven Medicine" is available here The study's key finding are: In 2006–2007, amenable mortality accounted for 24 percent of deaths under age 75 in the 16 countries studied. Rates were lowest in France, with 55.0 deaths per 100,000 people, followed by Australia (56.9 per 100,000) and Italy (59.9 per 100,000). The highest levels were in the United States, with 95.5 deaths per 100,000 people, followed by the United Kingdom (82.5 per 100,000) and Denmark (80.1 per 100,000). If the U.S. had achieved levels of amenable mortality seen in the three best-performing countries—France, Australia, and Italy—84,300 fewer people under age 75 would have died* in 2006–2007. The authors found that the US's poor performance - it came last of the 16 high income countries studied - was due to: "The United States's poor performance and relatively slow improvement compared with other nations may be attributable to "the lack of universal coverage and high costs of care."" The world's "best" healthcare system??? Definitely not the US one, according to this indicator and study. Tens of thousands of wholly unnecessary preventable deaths occur annually in the US. The study found that these deaths are a direct consequence of the inadequacies of the US healthcare system. This isn't as damning of our system as I would have expected. We are not that much worse than the UK and Denmark, both of which have universal care. I wonder what the cause of the British system's poor performance is? Cost cutting by conservatives??? Too many bosses, note enough actual front line staff ..Patient care suffers...low wages compared to the pencil pushers and bean counters , pretty much the same for america, but it doesnt deny just on the ability to pay.

Hippiekinkster -> RE: The Best Health Care System in the World? (4/10/2012 9:58:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: joether But every so often, I just seriously wonder what happens to Americans, who of no fault of themselves come down with a serious injury or illness that strips them of nearly life and limb, to pay the medical bills. Someone should NEVER have to fill out paper work while their kid lies dying in another room. A person should NEVER have to worry how much something will cost while their in deep pain. No one should ever have to worry that once diagnosised with a serious illness, they'll be dropped because the insurance company isnt making a profit off their misery. Bottomline.....Americans should always be looking out for their fellow Americans. Let's assume I'm at the median, and do not itemize. In Georgia the median one-person household income is about $32000. No mortgage. Property tax is $2500. Exemption $3500. Tax on $26000 is $3500. State tax about $1100. Sales tax, excise taxes, etc. about $1000 (5% sales tax; I figure about $500 in sales taxes; the rest on utilities, etc.) Disposable income = ≈$20400. This year my premiums are $5725.00. $1000 med deductible. About $1200 on meds thereafter. $40 copay +$25 on bill = $65/mo x 12 = $780 pain mgt. Other docs $540 + eye doc + GP (I get 6 visits per year, so I'm billed for negotiated rate - $40). Figure about $1500 on docs. About $9500 this year IF nothing happens. I'm left with roughly $11,000. (remember the assumptions. Situation is different & I itemize) I figure I've averaged about $9K/year for the past 8 years. That's $72,000. That's money I could have used to stay in my house for at least a couple more years instead of having to sell it and move into my townhouse. If we had Single-Payer, and meds priced like the rest of the world pays, that is. That's ONE reason why I thoroughly despise cons.

Edwynn -> RE: The Best Health Care System in the World? (4/10/2012 10:28:56 PM)
Well, so what? (smirk and sarcasm warning ... ) So you paid ~$9.5k for insurance and doctor and medical stuff. That's kinda steep, I know. But ... you still have your freedom! You are not giving the government more power by letting them lower both insurance and medical costs. That would be a dangerous thing. There is nothing in the original constitution that says the government's job is to actually look out for its own citizens. That "for the general welfare" thingy only means that we each have the individual right to do whatever we can get away with to increase our own personal general welfare. That's what "general welfare" means and anybody who says different is a commie and wants the government to enslave us, which they are already half-way doing by requiring product labeling and traffic laws and all that other nanny state stuff. I admire your courage in sticking to your guns in paying that $9.5k rather than being a slave in paying 30-40% less (if single payer/universal) but having to pay even ONE PENNY of that reduced cost towards someone else's health costs. Stop the slavery! Stop the madness!

Hippiekinkster -> RE: The Best Health Care System in the World? (4/10/2012 10:39:26 PM)
Not only do I have my "Freedom", but I can buy guns! Lots and lots of guns! Well, if I don't piss the money away on medicine or eyeglasses or such...

SoftBonds -> RE: The Best Health Care System in the World? (4/10/2012 11:09:06 PM)
Hippy, DC, sorry to hear about the medical problems and hope it all works out. You know, with all the Europeans and other folks from nations with socialized health care on here, why are we not hearing any of the horror stories of that system? I mean, Republicans here in the states have told us so many third hand stories of your horrible care, why are we not hearing any of that firsthand from you guys? How many folks in Socialized medicine nations are dying while waiting for care again??? (Remember, if he had been British, Stephen Hawking would have been allowed to die since the BHS death panels wouldn't have paid for his care-wink)

Edwynn -> RE: The Best Health Care System in the World? (4/11/2012 12:45:42 AM)
Here is somewhat limited info: http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/6/28/49105858.pdf Skip down to pp. 145-146 for waiting times to see a specialist and for elective surgery. A more comprehensive comparison amoungst six countries: http://www.commonwealthfund.org/Performance-Snapshots/International-Comparisons/International-Comparison--Access---Timeliness.aspx Click on the boxes below the large chart to change displayed data. The thing about going through all the OECD report (worth reading when you have the time) is that we can see that no single country is the best or worst across the board. The US doesn't rank higher than 7th in any category except some cancer survival rates (#1!), but still OK overall. Of course the US ranks highest in health care cost by a substantial margin; per capita cost is 48% higher than no. two Norway, and total cost percentage of GDP is 45% higher than no. 2 Netherlands. ( OECD p. 149. ** OECD p. 151). Being one of the last four countries (out of 34 OECD members) without universal health care, the US has the opportunity to cherry pick among the 30 other countries and see what works best in terms of both quality of care and costs. We certainly have the personnel, equipment, technology, and facilities to do that. We have the chance to indeed have the best health care system in the world and possibly even the most cost effective, if we chose to pursue that course. Of course by some accounts, we could only obtain this by becoming the country with the highest slave population in the modern world. Stop the madness.

kitkat105 -> RE: The Best Health Care System in the World? (4/11/2012 1:01:38 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SoftBonds Hippy, DC, sorry to hear about the medical problems and hope it all works out. You know, with all the Europeans and other folks from nations with socialized health care on here, why are we not hearing any of the horror stories of that system? I mean, Republicans here in the states have told us so many third hand stories of your horrible care, why are we not hearing any of that firsthand from you guys? How many folks in Socialized medicine nations are dying while waiting for care again??? (Remember, if he had been British, Stephen Hawking would have been allowed to die since the BHS death panels wouldn't have paid for his care-wink) Socialised health is far from perfect but it's tolerable. Our biggest problem is waiting lists (expect a 3-12 month wait no matter what elective surgical procedure you want/need). But our waiting list issue is complicated by not having enough specialist consultants to cope with our aging, chronic health population. Our (Australia) Medicare levy is integrated into the tax we pay. I do know for a fact that patients with private health insurance receive more expensive parts/procedure for surgery. That's because the private hospitals can charge the private health insurance companies whatever they want. For example, my mum's pacemaker was a $25000 model which has lasted 10 years on it's first battery. She was able to be admitted within a month of her diagnosis. If she waited (non urgent) and went public, it would be a $15000 pacemaker that lasted 5-7 years. Edited to add: I'm generally dreading health insurance in the US.

papassion -> RE: The Best Health Care System in the World? (4/11/2012 9:32:25 AM)
Was working with some Canadians so I asked about their healthcare. Some like it but most said it sucked. Long waits and they said you still have to buy insurance if you want more involved care, whatever that means. They complained that the taxes they pay to cover their "free" healthcare was more than a US policy and they have no choice in the level of coverage. I understand France has a pretty good system. Why don't we search for which country has the best system and copy it? Or would that make too much sense?

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