RE: "The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes..." Any questions?

RE: "The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes..." Any questions? (Full Version)

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farglebargle -> RE: "The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes..." Any questions? (4/6/2012 8:40:53 AM)
How is buying or not buying insurance not commerce? By not buying insurance, you affect the market too. Interstate Commerce Clause FTW. Or do you want the DEA to be put of of business, too? ( Gonzales v. Raich )

slvemike4u -> RE: "The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes..." Any questions? (4/6/2012 9:39:24 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Arturas quote: ORIGINAL: mnottertail The self-styled constitutional scholars of the right are an interesting (if extremely uninformed) bunch, ain't they? Are you asking me? I'm not a scholar but I do know the Consitution and Amercian history as do many Americans. You should read it some time. After reading a good many of your posts I have to wonder if you,after reading it,have ever actually understood the document...or it's intentions.

MusicalBoredom -> RE: "The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes..." Any questions? (4/6/2012 12:38:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Arturas quote: ORIGINAL: MusicalBoredom quote: Because fifty percent of Americans pay no taxes now. You do realize that 27% of the population is made up of children and 13% of the population is over 65 right? So this 50% of the population that don't pay taxes that certain groups keep talking about is made up mostly of people who are outside of the generally accepted working age group. I claim my kids as dependents. I pay their taxes. I don't consider them freeloaders. ETA: Sorry Ron, I just saw you already covered this. 40-50 percent of working age Americans. Nice try. Actually you are incorrect. Those figures that you are citing came from the Heritage Foundation and were made to push an agenda. It cites "percentage or people" when most households file as a household -- that is married people file a single return. There is no way to compare tax returns with individual people. If you want to back up your claim then please provide a source that actually has real data and statistics. Just as I wouldn't look at an MSNBC poll as a fact of anything, I also don't look at the Heritage Foundation as a fact of anything. Just because a group of "conservative" commentators says a made up statistic over and over doesn't make it an actual fact.

mnottertail -> RE: "The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes..." Any questions? (4/6/2012 12:56:29 PM)
Yeah, that old bastion of the SCOTUS Clare Thomas got his ho workin there.

SoftBonds -> RE: "The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes..." Any questions? (4/6/2012 3:32:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Arturas quote: ....the constitution would grew with the nation. If we applied your view point that the constutution is unable to change and it is in fact, set in stone, then we have created 17 amendments that shouldnt be there. Yes. No. The original (base) Consitution is set in stone. The amendments do not change the base Constitution. They add things to it that do not conflict with the original base Constitution. These are called the "Bill of Rights" and spell out Rights. Sooooo, one can make amendments to the Consitution but one cannot erase or redefine the Consitution, for example, one cannot change the intent of the orignial Commerce Clause to require Americans to buy something they do not want to buy, but one could extend commerce regulation to future space commerce, to prevent illegal activities in commerce, so the Consitution can "grow" but cannot "change" in meaning. So what is the status of the amendment that made income taxes constitutional? If income taxes were unconstitutional before the amendment, then the amendment changed something that was "set in stone." The purpose of amendments was to allow us to change mistakes in the original document. If you don't realize that...never mind...

DesideriScuri -> RE: "The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes..." Any questions? (4/6/2012 4:20:04 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PatrickG38 quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri quote: ORIGINAL: farglebargle When you buy health insurance you get a tax credit. Am I the only one who sees this? See, now you're not telling the whole story, here. quote: The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States; Congress has the power to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises. But, only for the enumerated purposes. Congress can't just collect a tax simply because it wants to. The General Welfare clause was not intended to mean what liberals are claiming, so PPACA isn't a Constitutionally enumerated power of the Federal Government. And, since it's not an enumerated power (nor is it a necessary and proper extension of an enumerated power), the Feds can't lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts, and excises. The taxing power granted under the Constitution is not limited by the enumerated powers of Art. I Sec 8. and is much broader. So, you are going to tell me that Congress can lay taxes for anything, on anyone, for any amount, simply if it wants to? Seriously? If that is the case, you have just showed me how irrelevant your posts are.

mnottertail -> RE: "The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes..." Any questions? (4/6/2012 4:24:10 PM)
You maybe want to sort of tell us how ATF taxes, and other excises fit into your 'enumerated' utopia then. We'll wait.

SoftBonds -> RE: "The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes..." Any questions? (4/6/2012 5:53:20 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri quote: ORIGINAL: PatrickG38 quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri quote: ORIGINAL: farglebargle When you buy health insurance you get a tax credit. Am I the only one who sees this? See, now you're not telling the whole story, here. quote: The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States; Congress has the power to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises. But, only for the enumerated purposes. Congress can't just collect a tax simply because it wants to. The General Welfare clause was not intended to mean what liberals are claiming, so PPACA isn't a Constitutionally enumerated power of the Federal Government. And, since it's not an enumerated power (nor is it a necessary and proper extension of an enumerated power), the Feds can't lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts, and excises. The taxing power granted under the Constitution is not limited by the enumerated powers of Art. I Sec 8. and is much broader. So, you are going to tell me that Congress can lay taxes for anything, on anyone, for any amount, simply if it wants to? Seriously? If that is the case, you have just showed me how irrelevant your posts are. So you are saying gas taxes, cigarette taxes, income taxes, sales taxes, etc are specifically enumerated in the constitution? Cause I think that other than tariffs, not much mention was made over HOW the government would pay for itself. We have payroll taxes for old age pensions, gas taxes for roads, income taxes for military, etc. All decided by Congress. If you are going to argue that all taxes are illegal except tariffs, good luck dealing with the WTO...

PatrickG38 -> RE: "The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes..." Any questions? (4/7/2012 8:01:00 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri quote: ORIGINAL: PatrickG38 quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri quote: ORIGINAL: farglebargle When you buy health insurance you get a tax credit. Am I the only one who sees this? See, now you're not telling the whole story, here. quote: The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States; Congress has the power to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises. But, only for the enumerated purposes. Congress can't just collect a tax simply because it wants to. The General Welfare clause was not intended to mean what liberals are claiming, so PPACA isn't a Constitutionally enumerated power of the Federal Government. And, since it's not an enumerated power (nor is it a necessary and proper extension of an enumerated power), the Feds can't lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts, and excises. The taxing power granted under the Constitution is not limited by the enumerated powers of Art. I Sec 8. and is much broader. So, you are going to tell me that Congress can lay taxes for anything, on anyone, for any amount, simply if it wants to? Seriously? If that is the case, you have just showed me how irrelevant your posts are. Just telling you the current state of the law. If you are serious about learning, let me know and I will provide citations to key cases. The taxes must have a least as part of their purpose raising revenue and must not violate any constitutional prohibition.

DesideriScuri -> RE: "The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes..." Any questions? (4/7/2012 2:03:14 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PatrickG38 quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri quote: ORIGINAL: PatrickG38 The taxing power granted under the Constitution is not limited by the enumerated powers of Art. I Sec 8. and is much broader. So, you are going to tell me that Congress can lay taxes for anything, on anyone, for any amount, simply if it wants to? Seriously? If that is the case, you have just showed me how irrelevant your posts are. Just telling you the current state of the law. If you are serious about learning, let me know and I will provide citations to key cases. The taxes must have a least as part of their purpose raising revenue and must not violate any constitutional prohibition. Which is it? Is there any limitation on Congress's authority to lay taxes?

erieangel -> RE: "The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes..." Any questions? (4/7/2012 2:11:05 PM)
Good to know, Tazzy. Thanks for correcting me.

Musicmystery -> RE: "The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes..." Any questions? (4/7/2012 2:14:53 PM)
quote: Is there any limitation on Congress's authority to lay taxes? The President can veto the measure. I think you mean "levy." Unless a "lay tax" refers to cashing in on prostitution.

PatrickG38 -> RE: "The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes..." Any questions? (4/7/2012 2:15:48 PM)
It is not limited by the enumerated powers, but it must serve at least a partial revenue function and not violate other prohibitions (a tax on Mormons would violate the First Amendment).

erieangel -> RE: "The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes..." Any questions? (4/7/2012 2:59:40 PM)
quote: No taxes means property taxes, gas taxes, franchise/excise taxes, sales taxes, state income taxes, alcohol taxes, ammunition taxes, personal property taxes, etc etc. Lets see here. Six years ago, I did not own a house, so I didn't pay property taxes. I was disabled and on SSI so I did not pay income taxes. I don't drink much and six years not at all (couldn't afford to)--no alcohol taxes. Don't own a gun. No personal property worth taxing. Didn't drive (again couldn't afford a car)--no gas taxes. I did pay sales taxes and taxes on my cigarettes, as I am a smoker. (Yeah, been trying to quit. Even went on Chantix, which messed me up badly. Today I own my home (free and clear), work full time (but don't make enough to pay federal income taxes, just bought a new car (I drove for 2 weeks on 1/2 tank of gas in my Yaris). My son owns a hunting rifle. So yeah, I'm paying quite a few taxes these days. And honestly, I wish I made enough to pay federal income taxes.

DesideriScuri -> RE: "The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes..." Any questions? (4/8/2012 7:41:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PatrickG38 It is not limited by the enumerated powers, but it must serve at least a partial revenue function and not violate other prohibitions (a tax on Mormons would violate the First Amendment). Wrong. It's not just that it has to raise revenue. It has to raise revenue for any "Necessary and Proper" program that support an enumerated power. Thus, they can tax us to support the military, which is an enumerated power. They can also tax us to pay for development of better armor for our military's use. They can not raise money for things that they aren't Constitutionally authorized to do.

DesideriScuri -> RE: "The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes..." Any questions? (4/8/2012 7:44:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: erieangel quote: No taxes means property taxes, gas taxes, franchise/excise taxes, sales taxes, state income taxes, alcohol taxes, ammunition taxes, personal property taxes, etc etc. Lets see here. Six years ago, I did not own a house, so I didn't pay property taxes. I was disabled and on SSI so I did not pay income taxes. I don't drink much and six years not at all (couldn't afford to)--no alcohol taxes. Don't own a gun. No personal property worth taxing. Didn't drive (again couldn't afford a car)--no gas taxes. I did pay sales taxes and taxes on my cigarettes, as I am a smoker. (Yeah, been trying to quit. Even went on Chantix, which messed me up badly. Today I own my home (free and clear), work full time (but don't make enough to pay federal income taxes, just bought a new car (I drove for 2 weeks on 1/2 tank of gas in my Yaris). My son owns a hunting rifle. So yeah, I'm paying quite a few taxes these days. And honestly, I wish I made enough to pay federal income taxes. Actually, you did pay property tax even when you didn't own your living quarters, unless you weren't paying rent. The cost of property taxes was part of the cost of rent. It was an indirect cost for you, but you were, essentially, still paying it. Congrat's on improving your situation. I'm sure it was no easy task. I hope in 6 years, I'll have been as successful.

erieangel -> RE: "The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes..." Any questions? (4/8/2012 9:48:59 PM)
But I didn't pay property taxes directly and I had more than one landlord lose their property to a sheriff's sale due to unpaid taxes. In truth the only reason I own my home today is because my grandmother gave me the house. But "giving" me the property cost me several thousand dollars, at a time when I was still on SSI. I paid the fees to have my name added to the deed (her name stayed on to save money) then when she died less than a year later, I had to pay inheritance taxes on the full value of the house. As bad as it sounds, if she had held on only 6 weeks longer, there would have been no inheritance taxes. Now I'm faced with a coming bill for another few hundred to have grandma's name taken off the deed. Needless to say, her name is remaining on the deed--I have better things to do with my money than give it to an attorney for something that doesn't really matter all that much unless I someday decide to sell.

LookieNoNookie -> RE: "The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes..." Any questions? (4/8/2012 10:58:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: farglebargle When you buy health insurance you get a tax credit. Am I the only one who sees this? Depends on whether you're a corporation.

DesideriScuri -> RE: "The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes..." Any questions? (4/9/2012 7:59:59 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: erieangel But I didn't pay property taxes directly and I had more than one landlord lose their property to a sheriff's sale due to unpaid taxes. In truth the only reason I own my home today is because my grandmother gave me the house. But "giving" me the property cost me several thousand dollars, at a time when I was still on SSI. I paid the fees to have my name added to the deed (her name stayed on to save money) then when she died less than a year later, I had to pay inheritance taxes on the full value of the house. As bad as it sounds, if she had held on only 6 weeks longer, there would have been no inheritance taxes. Now I'm faced with a coming bill for another few hundred to have grandma's name taken off the deed. Needless to say, her name is remaining on the deed--I have better things to do with my money than give it to an attorney for something that doesn't really matter all that much unless I someday decide to sell. Have you looked into legalzoom? A deed transfer is $249, so you might save a couple bucks, but it will probably be quicker and easier.

DesideriScuri -> RE: "The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes..." Any questions? (4/9/2012 8:02:31 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie quote: ORIGINAL: farglebargle When you buy health insurance you get a tax credit. Am I the only one who sees this? Depends on whether you're a corporation. LookieNoNookie, farglebargle is trying to make it seem like you get a tax break by having insurance. Instead of being penalized for not having insurance, you are rewarded for having it The only thing you have to do is make the current penalty apply to everyone and then offer a credit for those who have insurance. That would make it a tax credit. The way the law is written, however, it is not a credit, but a tax penalty.

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