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A possible connection between "Stand Your Ground" laws and the recent Tulsa killings?


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A possible connection between "Stand Your Ground&q... - 4/10/2012 6:55:29 AM   
Fightdirecto


Posts: 1101
Joined: 8/3/2004
Status: offline 		Tulsa shootings: Details emerge about killing of suspect's father

quote:

A spate of shootings in Tulsa, Okla., appears connected to the two-year anniversary of the slaying of a suspect's father, police said. And on Monday, prosecutors released new information about the handling of that case.

Jacob "Jake" England, 19, and Alvin Watts, 32, have been jailed in connection with the recent shootings and are being held on about $9-million bail each. The men face charges of murder, shooting with intent to kill and possession of a firearm in commission of a felony.

Three people were killed in the shootings and two injured; all of the victims were black.

England's recent Facebook posts indicated that he was upset about the death of his father, Carl England, 47, at the hands of Pernell Demond Jefferson, who is black...

"Based on the reports presented by the Tulsa Police Department, the DA’s Office found Jefferson’s actions to be justified under Oklahoma law," spokeswoman Susan Witt said in the statement, citing a self-defense, or "stand your ground," law.

That law maintains: “A person is justified in using deadly force in self-defense if that person reasonably believed that use of deadly force was necessary to protect himself/herself from imminent danger of death or great bodily harm.”

A similar state law has been invoked to defend the actions of George Zimmerman, who shot and killed 17-year-old Trayvon Martin on Feb. 26 as Martin walked in a gated community in Sanford, Fla.

Jefferson apparently shot Carl England - as Jake England watched - during an argument at a Tulsa apartment complex, according to the Tulsa World.


So, on the face of it, we have a case of one man shooting another man, the shooter not being prosecuted under a "Stand Your Ground" law - and two years later the son of the man that was killed takes revenge for his father's death by killing others.

Could this be another example of The Law Of Unintended Consequences relative to "Stand Your Ground" laws?

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RE: A possible connection between "Stand Your Grou... - 4/10/2012 8:31:41 AM   
Fightdirecto


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Joined: 8/3/2004
Status: offline 		The concept of revenge as justification for violence has been enshrined in American culture for hundreds of years (the Charles Bronson "Death Wish" films comes to mind immediately - I could probably cite many more examples if I took the time.) Avenging a perceived "wrong" against yourself, your parents or a family member is the plot line of many popular movies and books. (Even the comic book character Batman became a costumed crime-fighter to "avenge" the murder of his parents by a mugger.)

Based on what little has been reported, Englund felt that his father was murdered and that his father's killer was not properly punished because of a "Stand Your Ground" law. Since he could not kill the man who killed his father, he directed his violence against random members of the same racial group as his father's killer.

I am in no way justifying such actions. My concern, however, is that some people, influenced by the plots of popular movie and novels of "justifiable revenge" common within our culture, might act on those influences if a family member or close friend was killed and the killer was not prosecuted due to a "Stand Your Ground" law, as Englund appears to have done.

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"I swore never to be silent whenever and wherever human beings endure suffering and humiliation. We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.””
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RE: A possible connection between "Stand Your Grou... - 4/10/2012 10:25:07 AM   
Iamsemisweet


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From: The Great Northwest, USA
Status: offline 		Not in the least bit surprising.  There was a shooting here recently, drunk guy wanders up on rural property in the middle of the night, ends up getting shot by the homeowner.  We have a somewhat different legal standard here than "stand your ground" but, in any case, the prosecutor announced he is not prosecuting.  My local newspaper online has reader comments, and the outrage amount the dead guy's friends and families is extremely high.  If I was the homeowner, I might be a little nervous because of all the really threatening comments and the fact that the newspaper printed his address.

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RE: A possible connection between "Stand Your Grou... - 4/10/2012 12:16:02 PM   
Marc2b


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quote:

Could this be another example of The Law Of Unintended Consequences relative to "Stand Your Ground" laws?


In this case I would have to say yes, but that it is not really relevant to the merits (or lack thereof) of "Stand Your Ground" laws. Anytime someone is killed, be it deliberate or accidental, there is the potential of someone taking revenge. The desire for revenge is a part of human nature. You might run over someone in your car and the next day be on the run from an enraged family... yet we wouldn't argue (I would hope) that this is an unintended consequence of automobiles in support of an argument to repeal autos.

Since "Stand Your Ground" laws vary from place to place I really don't have an overall opinion on them one way or another but while a "Stand Your Ground" law may bear some responsibility for the death of the suspect's father, they are not responsible for the people he killed. He made the choice and he and he alone is responsible.


As for your comments that popular culture bears some responsibility for people being motivated to seek revenge, I see that as a completely separate issue not really related to the good or ill of "Stand Your Ground" laws, but since you brought it up...

I don't see how it is any different from claims that heavy metal music drives kids to suicide or that first person shooter computer games makes people more violent. Popular culture often reflects our underlying desires. If someone were to murder one of your loved ones, it is so much more emotionally satisfying to jam a fork in through their eye and into their brain rather than waiting of the justice system (with its uncertain outcomes) to play out. From movies to music to computer games, millions of people have indulged (sometimes very violent) wish fulfillment without ever going on a rampage. Most people are capable of drawing a line between fantasy and reality. If someone watches a violent movie and then decides to go out and kill people, the most likely explanation is that the individual in question was fucked in the head to begin with.





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RE: A possible connection between "Stand Your Grou... - 4/10/2012 1:08:10 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Fightdirecto

Based on what little has been reported, Englund felt that his father was murdered and that his father's killer was not properly punished because of a "Stand Your Ground" law. Since he could not kill the man who killed his father, he directed his violence against random members of the same racial group as his father's killer.

Based on the not so little reported, Jefferson (the man who killed England's father) was caught trying to break into a home. The homeowner called England's father, Carl, and they went looking for the guy together. When they found him, Carl swung and hit him with a piece of wood. Jefferson then fired, killing Carl. Jefferson, who was on probation at the time of the incident, was remanded and sentenced to six years in prison for pointing a firearm and assault. He was not charged with murder because he was defending himself against an attack when he fired.

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 4/10/2012 1:12:08 PM >

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RE: A possible connection between "Stand Your Grou... - 4/10/2012 1:19:28 PM   
DaddySatyr


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From: Pittston, Pennsyltucky
Status: offline 		I only have what's been posted here but the only way I would even consider revenge as a mitigating factor is if it is directed at the actual (perceived) bad guy and if it happens in a much shorter time span than 2 years.

In simple terms, I'm not buying this crap, at all.

I will say that whenever a case becomes as public as the Zimmerman/Martin case has become, there will always be people trying to use the same defense (if it looks like an effective one) because not only is revenge part of human nature but, lately, so is failing to stand up to the consequences of your actions.

If this person really felt justified in what he was doing, he'd have pulled the trigger, blew a few people away and stood there and said something akin to: "The mother fuckers deserved to die and I'm glad I was the one that did it." This guy ran, showing guilt and a knowledge of wrong-doing (in my mind).



Peace and comfort,



Michael

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RE: A possible connection between "Stand Your Grou... - 4/10/2012 1:58:11 PM   
Owner59


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His GF had shot and killed herself in front of him, recently.

On top of, never getting over the killing of his dad,who was known to be racist against blacks.

The son might have picked up those attitudes,especially the often used practice of collective blame and punishment,which is rearing it`s ugly head in the Martin case.

He posted a few facebook posts confirming that this attack was race based and random.......any black will do.

I might have this wrong but I heard the other guy was arrested for helping/hiding him,not for doing the actual shootings.





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RE: A possible connection between "Stand Your Grou... - 4/10/2012 2:59:12 PM   
DaddySatyr


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From: Pittston, Pennsyltucky
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

His GF had shot and killed herself in front of him, recently.

On top of, never getting over the killing of his dad,who was known to be racist against blacks.

The son might have picked up those attitudes,especially the often used practice of collective blame and punishment,which is rearing it`s ugly head in the Martin case.

He posted a few facebook posts confirming that this attack was race based and random.......any black will do.

I might have this wrong but I heard the other guy was arrested for helping/hiding him,not for doing the actual shootings.



That he witnessed a tragedy such as a suicide is a damned shame.

That his father was killed is also a horrible thing for a person to have to go through.

That he was possibly made a racist by his father is a black mark against his father's soul.

That he chose to kill innocent people based on some twisted idea of revenge and quite possibly an element of racism is inexcusable.

I was raised by two drunks. I'm not a drunk. At some point, we have to take personal responsibility for our own actions.

I guess if I want to be truly fair, I might be willing to entertain "extreme emotional distress (or whatever the defense is called)" as a mitigating factor based solely upon the fact that he had recently witnessed a suicide (which will fuck with just about anyone's head) and the fact that his father probably instilled racist beliefs in him. Children have to be taught racism. It doesn't come naturally.



Peace and comfort,



Michael

_____________________________

A Stone in My Shoe

Screen captures (and pissing on shadows) still RULE! Ya feel me?

"For that which I love, I will do horrible things"

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