Enforced Polyphasic Sleep? (Full Version)

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OedipalAndrocles -> Enforced Polyphasic Sleep? (4/11/2012 7:52:30 PM)

Hi everyone,

I'm very new to the realm of d&s, this is my first post here. I'm not sure if this is something that is practised in these circles, but judging by the warm welcome I have felt since joining CM and the sheer number of people here, I'm sure I can find some people here knowledgeable and kind enough to offer some enlightenment or share some experiences.

For those who don't know what I'm talking about, Polyphasic sleep is basically and altered sleep cycle comprising multiple short naps replacing a single block of sleep, in order to reduce total sleep time.
If you go to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyphasic_sleep and look at the bottom of the article under Scheduled napping to achieve more time awake you can find a chart of various sleep patterns.

There is debate over whether this is possible without compromising brain function, but it is said that many of the world greatest minds such as, Da Vinci, Tesla and Edison used altered sleep patterns to free up time.

I'm interested in this, however achieving a life with less downtime would take tremendous willpower or enforcement on the part of the dominant, but would be ultimately rewarding in terms of productivity and output. I thought perhaps some Domme / Sub couples may have employed an enforced sleep pattern as a way of mentally conditioning the submissive to help fulfil their true potential, as a partner/slave, professionally or otherwise. Or maybe as a way of somehow reinforcing the power or stature of the Dominant party.

Thanks for reading my thread and please share, or feel free to ask questions, I'm not an expert in anything but I will endeavour to answer them if I can.

C



LadyHibiscus -> RE: Enforced Polyphasic Sleep? (4/11/2012 8:43:57 PM)

The most effective form of torture is sleep deprivation.

Sleep cycles are very personal, and a surprising number of people have apnea or other issues. If the person is getting sufficient REM sleep, I think the idea of limiting sleep could be done without lasting harm. Generally, I think it's asking for trouble.




OedipalAndrocles -> RE: Enforced Polyphasic Sleep? (4/11/2012 9:05:12 PM)

It is true what you say about torture, although the methodology employed by the CIA, MOSSAD the ISI or any other agency differs somewhat from the idea of 'retraining' the brain. Firstly it usually combined with other forms of torture ie, stress positions or constant exposure to loud irritating noise in an effort to dissolve any mental strength the subject displays during interrogation. Also, when used as torture, Sleep deprivation tactics do include allowing the subject to sleep, but at irregular intervals to disrupt established biorhythms further weakening the subject.

You did hit on something with the REM sleep, I believe the idea is to retrain the mind to skip the introductory period of sleep, before the REM stage occurs so that all of the limited sleep that you do have is REM sleep. In order for this to happen the mind needs to learn that it no longer has the same amount of time to rest and begins utilizing its down time in the most efficient way possible. There is a train of thought that this is possible because the mind has learned to extend the sleep cycle in order to correlate with the suns daily cycle.



LadyHibiscus -> RE: Enforced Polyphasic Sleep? (4/11/2012 9:14:57 PM)

Regarding the sun cycle...I read about a study where subjects were kept in an environment with no natural light and no clocks...their sleep cycles changed dramatically with the connection to traditional time gone.

It's certainly possible to train your brain! I have a sleep disorder and am working on lengthening my REM cycles. I'm not sure there is a way to shorten the amout of sleep you need, though. There are people who just don't need to sleep much...and there's no waay I will be able tobecome one of them.



OedipalAndrocles -> RE: Enforced Polyphasic Sleep? (4/12/2012 12:06:39 AM)

I think I read about something similar, were subjects took on bi-phasic pattens similar to those on some nations like some South American and European countries. Also in near-polar regions because of the odd daylight hours... The brain is an amazing thing, we have no idea what it is capable of.



LafayetteLady -> RE: Enforced Polyphasic Sleep? (4/12/2012 12:36:32 AM)

I think on the whole, a dominant messing with an s-types sleep cycles in such a way is a very bad idea.  The prospect of not knowing whether or not they are causing (or be the catalyst) for serious problems for the sake of exerting power is senseless.  I do know of dominant who enforce better sleep habits where the s-type has a set time to go to bed and get up.

You talk about them being able to be "more productive."  Productive at what exactly?  There are many discussions regarding the reality that dominants should always be cognizant of "over-scheduling" their s-types and the problems it causes.  To add sleep deprivation to that would seem to simply exacerbate the problem.

Add to that the very real fact that most people have jobs/careers and other life responsibilities seems to conflict with the whole idea anyway.

As for me, I have all kinds of difficulties with sleep and insomnia so anyone wanting to play around with the little bit of sleep I am able to get would be a deal breaker for me.



OedipalAndrocles -> RE: Enforced Polyphasic Sleep? (4/12/2012 2:57:08 AM)

We are all different, along with our situations and responsibilities, and yes what I'm talking about here is far from practical for most. My current situation is atypical in many respects. I'm 29, I work for myself from home, I don't have a partner or children but am responsible for the welfare of another, as such any extra time awake would aid me greatly. My work doesn't stop, ever, finishing one thing means moving on to the next, regardless of what the clock is saying, and the more tasks I could complete on on any given day, the more promising the future is for me.

I see the process of instigating a multi-phasic sleep cycle as an amazingly arduous one, painful and yes, even torturous in the realest sense. But I think many parallels can be drawn be that and say, an intense weight loss regime. No pain no gain, as they say.

I still have no idea if this is actually feasible, or dangerous. I think its possible, and that the brain is resilient enough to recover from any short term 'strain' in the form of sleep deprivation.

Also, that if it was possible, that the pain would be worth it, a thousand times over. Time is precious. There isn't much I would do to have more.



CynthiaWVirginia -> RE: Enforced Polyphasic Sleep? (4/12/2012 4:13:14 AM)

Hello OedipalAndrocles.

I do Own someone, and I would not endanger his health just to create more hours in a day for him to be awake to serve me.

Yanno, some people smoke four packs of cigs per day and live to be in their late 90's.
I am sure some of these people might even be geniuses...however, this doesn't mean that all of us should start smoking to become geniuses nor to live until we are nearly 100.

Beware that your ambition doesn't outstrip your common sense. [;)]



LaTigresse -> RE: Enforced Polyphasic Sleep? (4/12/2012 4:22:59 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady

I think on the whole, a dominant messing with an s-types sleep cycles in such a way is a very bad idea.  The prospect of not knowing whether or not they are causing (or be the catalyst) for serious problems for the sake of exerting power is senseless.  I do know of dominant who enforce better sleep habits where the s-type has a set time to go to bed and get up.

You talk about them being able to be "more productive."  Productive at what exactly?  There are many discussions regarding the reality that dominants should always be cognizant of "over-scheduling" their s-types and the problems it causes.  To add sleep deprivation to that would seem to simply exacerbate the problem.

Add to that the very real fact that most people have jobs/careers and other life responsibilities seems to conflict with the whole idea anyway.

As for me, I have all kinds of difficulties with sleep and insomnia so anyone wanting to play around with the little bit of sleep I am able to get would be a deal breaker for me.


Aside from the fact that I do not have sleep difficulties (in fact I hit REM very very quickly) I totally echo the above.

My sleep is hugely important to me. I am miserable if I don't get enough and struggle to function well in addition to not making everyone around me equally miserable.

Once upon a time a very long time ago, I tried working 3rd shift and parenting during the day. I tried doing exactly what you propose and I was in walking zombie mode. It was AWFUL. I could fall asleep at any moment of rest, yet no matter how many naps I took, I was always exhausted.

I would only do that to someone I wanted to be very VERY cruel to. I am a sadist, but I would have to intensely dislike someone to be that cruel. Seriously. (but I can think of a few people with whom it would be deliciously fun to do it to....) Like a few of my son's former in-laws.[:D]



OedipalAndrocles -> RE: Enforced Polyphasic Sleep? (4/12/2012 7:37:30 AM)

Thanks, I hear some pretty positive things in those replies, its clear that your are all caring people. It was very nice to be thought of as 'well educated, articulate' and using 'big fancy words', but online thesaurus's (thesauri?) are plentiful, ample, copious, plenteous and bountiful... (was that humourous? I'm not too sure) and as a sidenote - a decade or so ago I barely passed high school.

I'm sorry to you all, but I think that just maybe, I didn't make myself clear initially, perhaps the term in the thread title 'enforced' was a poor one. I really didn't mean sleep deprivation as a from of torture that someone has been made subject against their will. Is it a truly sadistic act to whip some bodys ass until it bleeds while they are begging you to do it?

If an option like altered reduced sleep patterns were attainable,

If they could be attained with no lasting negative effects

If the negative effects during the "training" period of sleep deprivation posed no risk to any relationships / employment / anything else that is important to grown up people,

If the altered patterns were reversible

Were what the sub wanted in order to benefit themselves, and felt that they needed help from a caring nurturing Domme to achieve that goal,

If a caring domme, who inside, wanted nothing more than to care for their sub and help them grow, had a sadistic streak and enjoyed enforcing a difficult sleep routine as a form of domination,

It wouldn't to me, be an act of cruelty, to force somebody to adhere to an alternative sleep pattern...

Am a straying into the realm of "subbing from the bottom" here, in regard to the sub getting what want they want, or using the domme to help get what they want? Is it wrong for a submissive not to be utterly selfless?





OedipalAndrocles -> sorry, double post.. (4/12/2012 7:44:12 AM)

.



Lockit -> RE: Enforced Polyphasic Sleep? (4/12/2012 7:45:53 AM)

No submissive is totally or as you say, utterly selfless. I would consider anyone that thinks that or suggests that they are, doesn't see themselves, life or a dominant in a realistic light.

To experiment with someone's health when medical science has proven... besides any mother of infants... that sleep is a required thing to remain healthy, is irresponsible to say the least.



RedMagic1 -> RE: sorry, double post.. (4/12/2012 7:49:13 AM)

Some dominants are also licensed medical professionals, certified personal trainers, trained life coaches. Most are not. It's a mistake to confuse dominance with technical education of any sort. Maybe the most dangerous example of this is "forced" estrogen treatment by kinksters who have no idea what they are doing.

I think your best bet would be to have a consult with an MD who is a sleep specialist, get a green light (or red light) for a particular regime, and then find a service top who would hold you accountable to that regime. If the doc says it's a bad idea, then it almost certainly is, no matter how deep an attraction it holds for you.



OedipalAndrocles -> RE: sorry, double post.. (4/12/2012 8:43:48 AM)

All very true and sensible, although in my somewhat uninformed opinion I think that an MD might disapprove of a range of BDSM related activities, I'm sure we all could think of a few off the top of our head so no need to list them here. I expect to be told that I'm wrong here, but how it seems to me, as far as enforcement goes, realistically, and for all practical purposes submissives have just as much say in everything they do as their Dommes.

What I'm trying to establish here is whether it is even possible or if anyone has experimented with this in an S/M context or otherwise... It seems to me, with my limited knowledge of the subject that it may well be possible, and there is anecdotal evidence to support that... In all honesty I don't believe I would have the willpower, with or without assistance, to endure the 6 week or so it is meant to take to make these changes to the sleep cycle. I really like my sack time too...



LaTigresse -> Sleep deprivation. (4/12/2012 9:13:08 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: OedipalAndrocles

All very true and sensible, although in my somewhat uninformed opinion I think that an MD might disapprove of a range of BDSM related activities, I'm sure we all could think of a few off the top of our head so no need to list them here. I expect to be told that I'm wrong here, but how it seems to me, as far as enforcement goes, realistically, and for all practical purposes submissives have just as much say in everything they do as their Dommes.

What I'm trying to establish here is whether it is even possible or if anyone has experimented with this in an S/M context or otherwise... It seems to me, with my limited knowledge of the subject that it may well be possible, and there is anecdotal evidence to support that... In all honesty I don't believe I would have the willpower, with or without assistance, to endure the 6 week or so it is meant to take to make these changes to the sleep cycle. I really like my sack time too...


The part I bolded.....in all honesty it reeks of a person that wants what they want, regardless of what anyone else tells them, and will use any defense, even the lame one you've provided, to argue that what you want is 'okay'.

You brought a topic of conversation to the forums. You've gotten plenty of posts that explain why the people writing them feel it is a bad idea and why they would not do it. Debate the issue as much as you want, I still doubt you will change anyone's mind or get anyone here to play the game with you.

Sure, nearly ANYTHING is possible. And nearly anything you can imagine, some fool has tried. Just because it can be done, doesn't automatically guarantee it's a good idea. Just because someone did something and suffered no ill effects, does not mean it's a good idea or that everyone can do it as successfully.

I prefer to own a mentally stable slave. Sleep deprivation can really fuck with a person's head in a bad way. I prefer to not risk a slave's mental stability in ways I don't know how to fix. Then there is the fact that she most likely will not be able to serve me the way I wish to be served if she is walking around in a sleep deprived zombie state.



OttersSwim -> RE: Sleep deprivation. (4/12/2012 9:23:01 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse
Then there is the fact that she most likely will not be able to serve me the way I wish to be served if she is walking around in a sleep deprived zombie state.


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