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Arizona bill would declare pregnancy 2 weeks before con... - 4/12/2012 2:51:17 PM   
kalikshama


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Spin or valid argument?

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2012/04/04/arizona-bill-would-declare-pregnancy-2-weeks-before-conception/

A measure that passed Arizona’s Senate claims that it would ban abortions after 20 weeks of pregnancy, but experts say that the bill is far more restrictive, effectively banning abortions after 18 weeks and declaring that a woman could be pregnant 2 weeks before she even had sex.

Arizona’s HB 2036 takes Nebraska’s 20-week abortion ban one step further by starting the clock on pregnancies at the woman’s last last menstrual period, which could be two weeks before fertilization.

Specifically, the bill would “[p]rohibit abortions at or after twenty weeks of gestation, except in cases of a medical emergency, based on the documented risks to women’s health and the strong medical evidence that unborn children feel pain during an abortion at that gestational age,” where gestational age is defined as “age of the unborn child as calculated from the first day of the last menstrual period of the pregnant woman.”

Guttmacher Institute’s State Issues Manager Elizabeth Nash told Raw Story that obstetricians start the clock on pregnancies after the “last menstrual period” to “be on the safe side.”

“Certainly, they are trying move the gestational cutoff from what had been over the last two years a 20-week gestational cutoff to an 18-week gestational cutoff,” Nash explained. “At the same time, they are trying to say, ‘Oh, this is a 20-week abortion ban.’ And they get away with that with the definition of gestational age that’s in the bill.”

RH Reality Check’s Amanda Marcotte noted that this means legislators are arguing women could be pregnant before they even have sex.

“Think about the implications down the road,” she wrote. “If a woman is ‘pregnant’ two weeks before she becomes pregnant, than any fertile woman—including those currently menstruating!—should really be considered pregnant. After all, we don’t know the future. We don’t know that any non-pregnant woman couldn’t be pregnant two weeks from now, making her retroactively pregnant now.”

“Considering that it’s anti-choice nuts we’re talking about, it’s safe to assume that they’d simply prefer a situation where all women of reproductive age are considered to be pregnant, on the grounds that they could be two weeks from now,” Marcotte added. “Better safe than sorry, especially if that mentality means you get to exert maximum control over the bodies of women of reproductive age.”

At this point, Nash said the Arizona bill has “very good chances of passage” because it is largely misunderstood.

“The media has been talking about this as a 20-week abortion ban without, I think, really looking into the definition,” she observed. “Two weeks is a long time. … [The bill] does not talk about any sort of fetal impairment. In this time frame is when you would have an [amniocentesis] done or other tests and it takes away women’s options if there is a problem with the pregnancy.”

Because clinicians use the definition of “last menstrual period” to determine the start of the pregnancy, Nash did not expect any legal challenges on those grounds — but the bill has other problems.

“What the Supreme Court has said is that states have the right to ban abortion after viability, but that any ban on abortions after viability must protect a woman’s life or health,” she told Raw Story. “So, a law like this would be in conflict with those decisions in the sense that it bans abortion much earlier than viability and does not take into account the full ramifications of life and health.”

“This is a very dangerous bill,” Nash concluded.

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2012/04/04/arizona-bill-would-declare-pregnancy-2-weeks-before-conception/
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RE: Arizona bill would declare pregnancy 2 weeks before... - 4/12/2012 2:58:46 PM   
kalikshama


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I'm leaning towards spin because it appears that all the states use "gestational age" and six already limit at 20 weeks. However, Guttmacher argues that many states' limits violate Roe v. Wade.

http://www.guttmacher.org/statecenter/spibs/spib_PLTA.pdf

State Policies on Later Abortions

BACKGROUND: In its landmark 1973 abortion cases, the U.S. Supreme Court held that a woman’s right to
an abortion is not absolute and that states may restrict or ban abortions after fetal viability, provided that their
policies meet certain requirements. In these and subsequent decisions, the Court has held that

 even after fetal viability, states may not prohibit abortions “necessary to preserve the life or health” of the
woman;
 “health” in this context includes physical and mental health;
 only the physician, in the course of evaluating the specific circumstances of an individual case, can define
what constitutes “health” and when a fetus is viable; and
 states may not require additional physicians to confirm the attending physician’s judgment that the woman’s
life or health is at risk in cases of medical emergency.

Although the vast majority of states restrict later-term abortions, many of these restrictions have been struck
down. Most often, courts have voided the limitations because they do not contain a health exception; contain an
unacceptably narrow health exception; or do not permit a physician to determine viability in each individual case,
but rather rely on a rigid construct based on specific weeks of gestation or trimester. Nonetheless, statutes
conflicting with the Supreme Court’s requirements remain on the books in some states.

In 2010, Nebraska enacted a law banning abortions at 20 weeks’ gestation based on the spurious assertion that a
fetus can feel pain at that point. This law has inspired the passage of nearly identical measures in other states.
These laws conflict with Supreme Court rulings barring states from placing an undue burden on women seeking
an abortion prior to viability, a point that occurs well past 20 weeks.

HIGHLIGHTS:

 39 states prohibit some abortions after a certain point in pregnancy.
 20 states impose prohibitions at fetal viability.
 5 states impose prohibitions in the third trimester.
 14 states impose prohibitions after a certain number of weeks, generally 24; 6 of these states ban
abortion at 20 weeks on the grounds that the fetus can feel pain at that point in gestation.
 The circumstances under which later abortions are permitted vary from state to state.
 29 states permit abortions to preserve the life or health of the woman.
 7 states unconstitutionally ban abortions, except those performed to save the life or physical health of
the woman.
 3 states unconstitutionally limit abortions to those performed to save the life of the woman.
 Some states require the involvement of a second physician when a later-term abortion is performed.
 12 states require that a second physician attend the procedure to treat a fetus if it is born alive; 2 of
these states require attendance of a second physician only for postviability abortions.
 10 states unconstitutionally require that a second physician certify that the abortion is medically
necessary; 3 of these states require approval of a second physician only for postviability abortions.




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RE: Arizona bill would declare pregnancy 2 weeks before... - 4/12/2012 3:42:51 PM   
Aylee


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As I recall from my two pregnancies, you are already counted as pregnant from the first day of your last menstrual cycle. Which makes you pregnant before you really are. It is how they get 40 weeks of "pregnancy" when there is really only 38 weeks.

When they do that first sonogram to check the age of the baby by measurement, that is how they measure. Which can create an interesting argument with the doctor when you have small babies and KNOW the date of conception.

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RE: Arizona bill would declare pregnancy 2 weeks before... - 4/12/2012 5:44:38 PM   
SoftBonds


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If a woman is not allowed to have an abortion once the state determines the fetus is "viable," then she should be able to go into any hospital from that point on and have any hospital induce labor.
"I'm pretty sure the baby is 20 weeks old, my last period was 20 weeks ago, so induce labor, so I can leave. Just let me sign the paperwork giving the baby to the state so you can charge them for the medical costs..."

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RE: Arizona bill would declare pregnancy 2 weeks before... - 4/12/2012 5:48:00 PM   
Owner59


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So if I look at a woman w/ lust in my heart......and don`t anything about it......procreation-wise.....I would be breaking this law?

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RE: Arizona bill would declare pregnancy 2 weeks before... - 4/12/2012 7:03:53 PM   
xssve


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This get weirder every day - next, the unfertilized egg will be a person, every time a woman menstruates, it's an abortion and she can be charged with murder.

You know it's just a matter of time.

< Message edited by xssve -- 4/12/2012 7:05:32 PM >


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RE: Arizona bill would declare pregnancy 2 weeks before... - 4/12/2012 9:35:46 PM   
Edwynn


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Original sin in the modern world. I think the legislators have at least partially succeeded in bringing us back to Eden. I think it's time for pranksters to start sneaking in the occasional serpent to place on the seat of some of these people. Or I could come up with something for one of those novelty merchants to sell, a rubber snake coiled around an apple with a voice box recording that says "Poly want an apple?," "Are you Eve?," "Got a Tampon?," "Which way is Gomorrah?" ...



< Message edited by Edwynn -- 4/12/2012 9:39:46 PM >

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RE: Arizona bill would declare pregnancy 2 weeks before... - 4/12/2012 10:54:50 PM   
tweakabelle


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Sorry Edwynn, we're not going back as far as Eden. Well, not quite that far.......

This brings to mind Virgin Births and Immaculate Conceptions, which is a little later in the Bible. You were pretty close though .....

I wonder how long before some nut proposes that thinking or talking about abortion is a crime? It really is getting that silly. And it really is horrifying that this nonsense is very real.

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RE: Arizona bill would declare pregnancy 2 weeks before... - 4/12/2012 11:31:38 PM   
Edwynn


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My extravagance was in reference to xssve's not-as-far-fetched-as-it-should-be speculation that if this keeps up, "next, the unfertilized egg will be a person, every time a woman menstruates, it's an abortion."

It made me think of the mindset that might have existed at the time the original scriptures, especially Genesis, were written. They obviously had difficulty in accepting nature, but especially the most when it came to humans and their bodies, and it seems likely to me that in that setting women's menstruation would have been a major cause for concern, nay- great disturbance, of the male authors. And I wondered years ago if this is what led to the story of original sin and how it was all Eve's fault.



< Message edited by Edwynn -- 4/12/2012 11:33:12 PM >

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RE: Arizona bill would declare pregnancy 2 weeks before... - 4/13/2012 12:05:45 AM   
SoftBonds


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn

My extravagance was in reference to xssve's not-as-far-fetched-as-it-should-be speculation that if this keeps up, "next, the unfertilized egg will be a person, every time a woman menstruates, it's an abortion."

It made me think of the mindset that might have existed at the time the original scriptures, especially Genesis, were written. They obviously had difficulty in accepting nature, but especially the most when it came to humans and their bodies, and it seems likely to me that in that setting women's menstruation would have been a major cause for concern, nay- great disturbance, of the male authors. And I wondered years ago if this is what led to the story of original sin and how it was all Eve's fault.




As a person of Hebrew derivation, I can tell you that a certain amount of squeamishness is inherent to our people. I have no idea if it is upbringing or genes, but you can see it in all the biblical warnings and prohibitions regarding cleanliness, food preparation, and even foot washing. We now know that biblical time Jews took a heck of a lot of ritual baths too!
Women were not allowed to be near men while on their period, nor were they allowed to handle food during that time. They were considered "unclean," and a whole lot of cleansing was required of them to handle that issue.
So I think you have a point on that...

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RE: Arizona bill would declare pregnancy 2 weeks before... - 4/13/2012 12:54:57 AM   
DarkSteven


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If she's considered pregnant prior to sex, wouldn't that make contraception equivalent to abortion?

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RE: Arizona bill would declare pregnancy 2 weeks before... - 4/13/2012 12:56:55 AM   
tazzygirl


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Its spin. This is the way gestational age has always been determined.

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RE: Arizona bill would declare pregnancy 2 weeks before... - 4/13/2012 1:06:50 AM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn

women's menstruation would have been a major cause for concern, nay- great disturbance

Yes, it's always been that way. One day when God couldn't find Eve, he asked Adam where she was. "She's down at the river," Adam said. God looked puzzled. "It's that time," Adam explained. "Oh no!" God exclaimed, greatly disturbed (just as you say). Then it was Adam's turn to look puzzled, but God just shooked his head. "What?" asked Adam. God just moaned. "What is it?" Adam asked, becoming greatly disturbed himself. God looked at him in despair. "How am I ever going to get the smell out of the fish?"

K.



< Message edited by Kirata -- 4/13/2012 1:13:10 AM >

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RE: Arizona bill would declare pregnancy 2 weeks before... - 4/13/2012 3:20:29 AM   
calamitysandra


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As Aylee and Tazzy have pointed out, this is the standard procedure to count gestational age.

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RE: Arizona bill would declare pregnancy 2 weeks before... - 4/13/2012 6:46:31 AM   
Aylee


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

If she's considered pregnant prior to sex, wouldn't that make contraception equivalent to abortion?


Actually no. You have to have a positive pregnancy test before they even ask you about your last period in order to start counting the age of the baby.

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RE: Arizona bill would declare pregnancy 2 weeks before... - 4/13/2012 8:15:26 AM   
SoftBonds


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

If she's considered pregnant prior to sex, wouldn't that make contraception equivalent to abortion?


Worse, it makes not having sex equivalent to abortion...
Any time you are around a woman, and don't do her, you are anti-life!!!

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RE: Arizona bill would declare pregnancy 2 weeks before... - 4/13/2012 8:22:22 AM   
Owner59


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn

women's menstruation would have been a major cause for concern, nay- great disturbance

Yes, it's always been that way. One day when God couldn't find Eve, he asked Adam where she was. "She's down at the river," Adam said. God looked puzzled. "It's that time," Adam explained. "Oh no!" God exclaimed, greatly disturbed (just as you say). Then it was Adam's turn to look puzzled, but God just shooked his head. "What?" asked Adam. God just moaned. "What is it?" Adam asked, becoming greatly disturbed himself. God looked at him in despair. "How am I ever going to get the smell out of the fish?"

K.



Oh......no....oh my.....oh...........that......is......fuck`n funny.......and sooooo wrong.

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RE: Arizona bill would declare pregnancy 2 weeks before... - 4/13/2012 8:55:05 AM   
Musicmystery


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What's in the water at the Arizona state house?

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RE: Arizona bill would declare pregnancy 2 weeks before... - 4/13/2012 10:03:26 AM   
xssve


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

If she's considered pregnant prior to sex, wouldn't that make contraception equivalent to abortion?

Oh that too, definitely.

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RE: Arizona bill would declare pregnancy 2 weeks before... - 4/13/2012 10:05:23 AM   
xssve


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee


quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

If she's considered pregnant prior to sex, wouldn't that make contraception equivalent to abortion?


Actually no. You have to have a positive pregnancy test before they even ask you about your last period in order to start counting the age of the baby.

Sorry, the judges are forced to disqualify your answer on the grounds that it is rational, that is not allowed - thank you, please keep trying.

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