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ORIGINAL: Masticator
I'm totally with you on it being vital to be truthful in BDSM relationships especially. Especially your points about the loss of quality in the power exchange when the sub clearly isn't really able to trust the Dominant partner and subsequently they can't trust the sub/slave.

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ORIGINAL: Masticator

Thanks for the responses, everyone. Glad that some of you found it to be a relevant topic!

I found it interesting that a few people, mainly women?, mentioned that they experience quite a bit of lying and most of it is senseless. This has been my experience too and I wish that I could some how insert the knowledge into their minds that this is foolhardy. But, I can't so I just respond to what is ongoing.

For me, the intent behind the lie and the frequency are the tools I use to decide how to proceed forward. Also, if the lie is dangerous I pretty much have to end things right there. (Example, saying that you'll wait and have a partner STD tested before having sex but not doing that and not even telling the other poly members that the sex act happened) If my life and health is put in danger I've always drawn a solid line there. However, in the past, there are times that I've regretted giving a liar more chances to, essentially, lie to me. I've wanted to believe them when they say that they'll stop. It took a long time to learn how to stop doing that.

I've tried many approaches to dealing with those who lie. My main action has been to try to prevent the lying. I discuss with them the nature of honesty, why it is valuable to me and what is ruined when the person lies or is deceptive. I try to use logic and clearly express the value of honesty. I try to make them feel like it is safe to be honest with me. When people do tell me the truth I try to let them know how I feel but that I appreciate that they were honest about it, and encourage them to keep being honest by pointing out that it would be a much worse situation for us both if it wasn't openly dealt with. There have been times when I've initially freaked out but I calmed down quickly and thanked them for at least telling me the truth. I don't know if that counts as being "safe" but I'm human and it was the best I was able to manage at the time.

Obviously there's a situation that inspired such thoughts but this is a topic I've mulled around often over the years. I think the lie that was recently told to me was based in a fear of exposing something humiliating and shameful. I don't see much evidence that the person in question typically lies to me but on the other hand I do want my partners to be willing and able to tolerate that kind of discomfort for the sake of not ruining the trust that we've built. I think it was more negligent than malicious. I'm still processing the whole thing and working out how I feel. Time has taught me to be sure that I'm willing to end it permanently if I say that it's over and not react in a rush of emotion and distress.

A lot of people who responded gave the whole "I'd leave if it was a big lie" point of view, but I didn't notice many people delving into why they made that choice and if they ever regretted it, or regretted not making it. It's just not that easy for me if I care about the person. Maybe it "should" make it easier to end it in the philosophy of "If they don't care enough about me NOT to do this then my love is wasted here, I deserve better." but it doesn't. When I love someone I'm highly motivated to try a lot of alternative solutions before I call it quits. My love comes with a benefit and a curse, I'm extremely loyal.

I relate more with the people who were of the mindset that if they cared about someone they'd try to understand what happened and then move forward. I also found the idea of having the lie be acknowledged and making the act of lying more uncomfortable to be sensible and I've already been trying that technique out. I think that it wouldn't work well with someone who was a habitual liar though.

As for myself, I think the times that I lie are to save other's feelings and to protect myself. I'm more dishonest by omission than anything. Most people are not adept (rude??) enough to call me on it. I'm not bragging... I'm literally questioning why I do it and why others don't inquire more. In any event I've put forth effort and attention to stopping that and instead being more expressive and open and volunteer the information they may not know to ask about. I've found that it's usually been beneficial. Other times it's been painful because I've been vulnerable and exposed to a lack of understanding or maybe tactless judgement. Never the less, I'm still willing to keep doing it for the sake of building something real and allowing them an opportunity to really experience me in the fullest accuracy possible. After all, that is what I'm asking for. I should at minimum be capable of doing it in return.

And last but not least, a couple people mentioned exploiting the situation and the liar's guilt/debt. It's really shocking that someone suggested something so provocative! I actually have been thinking about how this deception has shifted the power exchange in an odd way. He's indebted to me. He's "in trouble" so to speak and motivated to be extra open, accommodating, willing. Some might enjoy that or exploit it but for me... It's really a disappointment. There are elements going on between us that I wanted to develop. Now that is somewhat taken away from me. As I see it, there is a forced and artificial surrender. I'm still struggling with how to recover from that and heal the power exchange and also be able to express my feelings like I want to. More to think about, for sure.

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ORIGINAL: DesFIP

My understanding is that compulsive liars learn this as a salvatory approach to an intolerable experience in their family of origin. For example, if the child is required to obtain all A's, no matter how difficult the subject and that there is no help for them to learn it, nor diagnosis and treatment of learning disorders, then in order not to be punished, verbally abused, have love and acceptance withdrawn, they learn to lie about it. Because they have no other mechanism to get what they need.

And as always, those things that save us when we are helpless to another's whims as children turn harmful when we are adults. It always requires a great deal of work learning to open up, learning that you will not be shamed if you tell the truth. And of course, those who need the help the most are those who are most afraid to seek it.

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ORIGINAL: Karmastic


It seems like you almost think you can change someone by preempting their lies with honesty and rational thinking.

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ORIGINAL: JeffBC

We, obviously, travel a different path than this one... which is a really good thing in my opinion since I consider this business to be highly toxic.

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ORIGINAL: Masticator

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ORIGINAL: Karmastic


It seems like you almost think you can change someone by preempting their lies with honesty and rational thinking.

The primary goal is to try and prevent the lying, as I said, but you misunderstand the point. I'm not trying to change a liar, but rather to let an honest person know how things are and to motivate them to be especially open and forthcoming. I'm aware that nothing I say is going to make a liar calmly decide to change in a magical instant.

If that were the end of my reasoning I think you'd be correct about what you said in regard to a "recipe". But it's not. I also address my expectations honestly for my own sake, so that I know that if something like that does come up I've done everything I can to let them know the consequences. For me personally, this is an awesome way to combat the desire to give someone additional chances to lie to me. So... let's say that a liar hears this...... well then they'll lie regardless of what I said, right? Right. But on my end, when that happens I'm not compelled to give them several chances to stop doing it. As I see it, they're warned and I feel like I've done my duty and the consequences are fair, reasonable and self protecting.

I don't know if these methods would be right for everyone but I think they're so far successful. This isn't a topic that keeps me up at night and it's not an ongoing pattern in my experiences with people anymore. Never the less, I'll keep an open, observant mind and watch out for any recipes, as you say.

I'm very curious about your perspective on being honest with people about my motives and expectations is a sign of weakness. In my experience, it was in my past when I was evasive or artificially harsh that I was in reality in a weak position and thus occasionally exploited. How do your experiences differ?

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If that were the e

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ORIGINAL: JeffBC

OK, great. Nobody offended anyone. Over text, it's hard to get the read properly and sometimes easy to offend.

I've rewritten this about 5 times now. I'm going to stick with the short version. The bottom line is that anyone who tells me they have never lied is stretching my credulity to the point of ridiculousness. Remembering that "never" encompassed the terrible twos and the teenage years among other things... yeah... Such statements make me want to check and make sure my wallet isn't missing. Valuing total transparency is a fine thing. I do in my marriage sans hyperbole. But man, thinking that one has achieved it.... keep that shit far away from me.

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tretching my credulity to th