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ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

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ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

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I completely agree. I am not "for" overturning Roe v. Wade. I'm for repealing it. If we overturn it, the Fed's are still making a decision for which they have no authority. It needs to be repealed, rescinded, whatever it's called.

What decision are they making? Are they telling women they have to get one?

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Edited to ask: If the Federal Government pays for abortions or funds organizations that provide abortions, is that, too, implicitly endorsing a particular religious belief?

The government funds blood banks, for example. There are a few religions who do not agree with such. Are you saying the government endorses a religion by funding those?

Really? What authority does the Federal government have in deciding whether or not abortions are legal? That answer is "no authority." I am not saying the Federal Government needs to outlaw abortions. I am saying that the Federal Government has no authority to have an opinion on this. Period. End of discussion.

But do get all puffed up and indignant. I have said time and time again that I am not "for" barring anyone from getting an abortion. Not a single person who wants to do that. For me, and me only, I find abortions to be reprehensible and infringing on the rights of the fetus. And, that is a moral stand I take. For me. Not for you. Not for your neighbor. Not for anyone else, but me. You don't agree that abortion is morally reprehensible. Good for you. We actually agree that abortions should not be illegal. Why you piss and moan so much about my stance, I don't know.

I am not going to address your blood bank diversion until you actually answer the question I posed.

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ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

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Really? What authority does the Federal government have in deciding whether or not abortions are legal? That answer is "no authority." I am not saying the Federal Government needs to outlaw abortions. I am saying that the Federal Government has no authority to have an opinion on this. Period. End of discussion.

And I am saying the government has every right to decide what is legal or not. What is your basis that it does not?

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The rest of your post is not worth discussing.

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ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

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ORIGINAL: Kirata
Firstly, it means that any decision about abortion rests on convictions that are intrinsically religious for purposes of the Free Exercise clause and therefore protected. Secondly, it means that government action to prevent abortion implicitly endorses a particular religious view against all others in violation of the Establishment clause.
Given that religious beliefs seem to be inextricable from this debate, I thought that was an interesting take on the issue. What do you think?

Here's what's interesting, Kirata:

I completely agree. I am not "for" overturning Roe v. Wade. I'm for repealing it. If we overturn it, the Fed's are still making a decision for which they have no authority. It needs to be repealed, rescinded, whatever it's called.

On abortion threads, I have always claimed that I, personally, am Pro-Life, but that Government has no authority to be Pro-Life or Pro-Choice.

Edited to ask: If the Federal Government pays for abortions or funds organizations that provide abortions, is that, too, implicitly endorsing a particular religious belief?

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If we take the OP's stance that this is issue is a moral one, then what right does the Federal Government have to make a moral judgment? It has none. When things come down to moral judgment, it's no longer about laws, but about religious beliefs.

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I still don't understand what the fuck your issue is with my stance. You can bitch all you want about my personal belief, but I'm not trying to force you to follow my belief. Why is that a problem? Why is it you can't see that I want government to make no moral judgments.

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Everlast
Mary got pregnant from a kid named Tom who said he was in love
He said don't worry about a thing baby doll I'm the man you've been dreamin' of
But three months later he said he won't date her or return her call
And she sweared god damn if I find that man I'm cuttin' off his balls
And then she heads for the clinic and she gets some static walkin' through the doors
They call her a killer, and they call her a sinner, and they call her a whore

[CHORUS]
God forbid you ever had to walk a mile in her shoes
'Cause then you really might know what it's like to have to choose
Then you really might know what it's like [x4]

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ORIGINAL: Owner59

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ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

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ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

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I completely agree. I am not "for" overturning Roe v. Wade. I'm for repealing it. If we overturn it, the Fed's are still making a decision for which they have no authority. It needs to be repealed, rescinded, whatever it's called.

What decision are they making? Are they telling women they have to get one?

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Edited to ask: If the Federal Government pays for abortions or funds organizations that provide abortions, is that, too, implicitly endorsing a particular religious belief?

The government funds blood banks, for example. There are a few religions who do not agree with such. Are you saying the government endorses a religion by funding those?

Really? What authority does the Federal government have in deciding whether or not abortions are legal? That answer is "no authority." I am not saying the Federal Government needs to outlaw abortions. I am saying that the Federal Government has no authority to have an opinion on this. Period. End of discussion.
But do get all puffed up and indignant. I have said time and time again that I am not "for" barring anyone from getting an abortion. Not a single person who wants to do that. For me, and me only, I find abortions to be reprehensible and infringing on the rights of the fetus. And, that is a moral stand I take. For me. Not for you. Not for your neighbor. Not for anyone else, but me. You don't agree that abortion is morally reprehensible. Good for you. We actually agree that abortions should not be illegal. Why you piss and moan so much about my stance, I don't know.
I am not going to address your blood bank diversion until you actually answer the question I posed.

So how do you think our nation has come to the set of laws it has?
Some mysterious burning bush or computer in a cave run by "them"?
We`ve come to the set of laws we have......painstakingly, over hundreds of years and thousands of cases.
By and for Americans with in the framework, process and authority set forth by the founders hundreds of years ago.
How is it you figure you`re not subject to those same, democratically passed laws?
If you think the government has no authority to make abortion legal......go ahead and try to stop someone......but don`t
stop till after the hysterically horrified pregnant woman calls 911 screaming she`s being assaulted by a stranger.
Then get back to us......... let us know how it turned out.

• A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  
• Personal Responsibility
  
• Help for the truly needy
  
• Limited Government
  
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ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
I answered the only question you asked. The rest of your previous post was a personal rant.
I do not agree that this is strictly a moral issue, because its also a medical one.

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(tazzygirl)What decision are they making? Are they telling women they have to get one?

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(Me)Edited to ask: If the Federal Government pays for abortions or funds organizations that provide abortions, is that, too, implicitly endorsing a particular religious belief?

(tazzygirl)The government funds blood banks, for example. There are a few religions who do not agree with such. Are you saying the government endorses a religion by funding those?

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I am glad you can stand on your moral grounds and decide for the country of people who have a huge variety of moral beliefs as to what is right or wrong. You do not decide for me. My Doctor and I do.

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I still don't understand what the fuck your issue is with my stance. You can bitch all you want about my personal belief, but I'm not trying to force you to follow my belief. Why is that a problem? Why is it you can't see that I want government to make no moral judgments.

By stating that the government has no place allowing me access to a medical procedure, you are indeed forcing your morality upon me. How do you think this got to the SC to begin with? People decided, based upon their own morality, that women should be denied access to abortions.... something that was in fact legal at one point.

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So, tell me, beyond the fact that child birth fever were killing women, which is why the medical community decided to control abortions, a situation that has since been rectified, why were abortions made illegal? We both know the answer.

• A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  
• Personal Responsibility
  
• Help for the truly needy
  
• Limited Government
  
• Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)
  

quote:

Really?!? So, if someone is morally against abortions, they are morons because to kill or not to kill a fetus isn't a moral issue?

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In his book, Life's Dominion, Ronald Dworkin, Professor of Jurisprudence at Oxford Universtiy and Professor of Law at New York University, argues that disputes over the morality of abortion are fundamentally religious in nature, because they turn on an individual's convictions about the place and value of human life in the universe.

Whether or not you accept that analysis, it gives rise to interesting consequences...

Firstly, it means that any decision about abortion rests on convictions that are intrinsically religious for purposes of the Free Exercise clause and therefore protected. Secondly, it means that government action to prevent abortion implicitly endorses a particular religious view against all others in violation of the Establishment clause.

Reference: Litigation Essentials, Lexus Nexis

Given that religious beliefs seem to be inextricable from this debate, I thought that was an interesting take on the issue. What do you think?

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Really?!? So, if someone is morally against abortions, they are morons because to kill or not to kill a fetus isn't a moral issue?

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If a woman could die by carrying a pregnancy to term and giving birth, is it okay for the doctor to force her to have an abortion against her will to save her life? Or, is the decision to carry to term hers? I vote the latter. I know you do, too.

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But, again, that isn't up to the Federal Government to decide. That is up to the mother and father (again, if the father is man enough to remain involved with the woman and the pregnancy), to decide.

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I am stating, for the umpteenth time, that government doesn't have the authority to bar you or allow you access to abortions. It is something that simply isn't up to them.

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I don't care why abortions were made illegal. I really don't. I'd say "read my lips," but you can't. So, read, very carefully, what I am stating, with conviction and absolutely zero moral qualms:

Abortions should NOT be illegal. Period.

Was that clear enough? If not, how many more times must I state it before you understand?

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I think he is suggesting that for purposes of law some kinds of questions are best regarded as fundamentally religious. Note the italics. To do so need not invoke any concept of organized creedal religion, let alone any version of Theism, because for some people those questions may have non-religious answers. What I think is at issue here, in Thomas Jefferson's words, is "liberty of conscience."

Our Constitution ... has not left the religion of its citizens under the power of its public functionaries, were it possible that any of these should consider a conquest over the conscience of men either attainable or applicable to any desirable purpose.

Regarding questions about the place and value of human life in the universe as fundamentally religious for purposes of law is not intended to equate, and does not equate, morality with "religion" but rather secures to each citizen the protection of his conscience. Similarly, courts have treated Atheism as a religion for purposes of law to the same end, namely: protecting liberty of conscience.