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RE: When are you not a newbie? - 4/18/2012 6:07:52 PM

DesFIP

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bucephalus
That said those rules can apply to training horses too, except, without the kink of course, so, so far my brain has been connecting my experience with training horses with being dominant. It's not black and white as it sounds, and one thing my sub did tell me was this: "Pretend I'm a horse". It made me laugh a bit to hear him say that, but at the same time, in a way, there really do seem to be a lot of parallels between D/s and equines.

Off topic, there's a huge relationship. Anyone who has had to train a horse will know the difference between negative reinforcement (giving a cue), positive reinforcement (removing the pressure of the cue), punishment (beating with a crop, bat, soda bottle etc), and rewards (pats on the neck and peppermints).

I can't tell you how many people think that punishment will teach in the way negative reinforcement will, whereas any horse person knows that all it teaches is fear.

And "always end on a good note". Something that happens far too rarely.

< Message edited by DesFIP -- 4/18/2012 6:10:22 PM >

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RE: When are you not a newbie? - 4/18/2012 6:26:07 PM

Bucephalus

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Not sure if you're implying that I'm not aware of the fact that here's a huge relationship? I can assure you, I am 100% aware of that.

I've rarely had to use negative reinforcement with any of the horses I worked with. Firm hand, most definitely. They're large dangerous animals that could easily kill you if you don't make sure they know who's in charge. "End on a good note" Was always my mantra. But this is where I am seeing the parallels with horses and D/s.

The trust, the ability to communicate, knowing where one stands, etc etc.

That said, my boy does enjoy a bit of punishment, but in the sense of "funishment".

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RE: When are you not a newbie? - 4/18/2012 6:44:11 PM

DesFIP

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Not at all, was just mentioning some of the things that seem so obvious to horse people but escape others.

Seems like your definition of negative reinforcement and mine differ. I mean giving pressure with a knee to get them to go in the direction you want them to go. When they head there, you remove the pressure - that's positive. And as long as they keep going where you want them to, you keep the knee off.

When people talk about punishment as teaching, I frequently use horse examples.

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RE: When are you not a newbie? - 4/18/2012 6:53:03 PM

Bucephalus

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Ah no, by that, it looks like our definitions on positive and negative reinforcement are fairly similar, if not the same. I think maybe something got lost somewhere in the lines here. But no, I would never use fear or pain as a means to teach. When I say "firm hand" I do mean that you "can't take any shit" so to speak, so if the horse acts up (or translating to D/s...the sub) You generally have to think on your toes to get them to realize "Hey, I'm not the one in charge, I better listen now". The method of getting them back in line could and would differ from horse to horse (person to person) of course, but the end results are ideally the same. You don't need pain or fear to accomplish this, but....a kind of firm yank for lack of a better way of explaining it from my Point of view.

Did any of that make sense on paper as it did in my head? Or did I just end up senselessly rambling?

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RE: When are you not a newbie? - 4/18/2012 6:58:54 PM

BurntKitty

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quote:

sub did tell me was this: "Pretend I'm a horse".

When I read that my first thought was "cool, I'll get the bit, you get the crop- it's Pony Play time!!"

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RE: When are you not a newbie? - 4/18/2012 6:59:41 PM

Bucephalus

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BurntKitty

quote:

sub did tell me was this: "Pretend I'm a horse".

When I read that my first thought was "cool, I'll get the bit, you get the crop- it's Pony Play time!!"

Well he does like Pony play.

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RE: When are you not a newbie? - 4/18/2012 7:21:12 PM

DesFIP

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Actually we came across a bit the other day, and he wanted me to try it. But it's used, I remember getting it, and I know damn well it hasn't been through the dishwasher so I refused. I'm a bad sub, lol.

If you met a horse that was afraid of the middle of the arena though, you would teach him that it was safe. Rewarding him every time he came off the rail. But so many dominants think that it's just better to beat the hell out of someone, or kick them to the curb, simply because they can't do it automatically and happily.

I think we could open a thread about this easily.

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RE: When are you not a newbie? - 4/18/2012 7:30:12 PM

Bucephalus

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

Actually we came across a bit the other day, and he wanted me to try it. But it's used, I remember getting it, and I know damn well it hasn't been through the dishwasher so I refused. I'm a bad sub, lol.

If you met a horse that was afraid of the middle of the arena though, you would teach him that it was safe. Rewarding him every time he came off the rail. But so many dominants think that it's just better to beat the hell out of someone, or kick them to the curb, simply because they can't do it automatically and happily.

I think we could open a thread about this easily.

I still have all of my old bits and training gear...maybe I should clean them up and plan to use them in the future...

I worked with paso finos primarily hot blooded breed oy.....come to think of it...much like my boy....), so a lot of what I have is pretty small. Especially my old mare's bit. She was a tiny little thing.

I actually did have a situation similar to this when I was working with a previously abused and neglected gelding. He was terrified of gates, so, of course, I'd coax him in and out of gates, starting wide, and as he improved made the opening more narrow. In a few weeks, he was pretty good about gates, still got a spook if you swung them open to fast though unfortunately.

So yeah, I'm trying to get the hang of training a human like you do a horse. Seems an absurd concept in the mind, and as I've stated multiple times around these parts, I'm a new dominant, and it takes time to get the swing of things and into that fine groove. Thankfully, I have someone that I can learn with, and who's willing to be patient while I get on the horse! (Ha, see what I did there? I made a funny!...a bad one)

A thread comparing D/s to horse training, I think could be definitely a very interesting topic. So many different trainers, and training methods... would be *Very* interesting to see a discussion on it.

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RE: When are you not a newbie? - 4/18/2012 7:36:28 PM

Soyokaze

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Only when you can take this up the ass: http://www.amazon.com/Doc-Johnson-Great-American-Challenge/dp/B002E9I0F2 will you be considered not a newbie.

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RE: When are you not a newbie? - 4/18/2012 7:37:49 PM

Bucephalus

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Soyokaze

Only when you can take this up the ass: http://www.amazon.com/Doc-Johnson-Great-American-Challenge/dp/B002E9I0F2 will you be considered not a newbie.

...Challenge considered.....Challenge accepted!

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RE: When are you not a newbie? - 4/18/2012 11:53:44 PM

SirLangsdorff

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I'd probably need 4 more lives to be an expert. I hope I don't live that long.

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RE: When are you not a newbie? - 4/19/2012 3:02:40 AM

VaguelyCurious

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FR

For me, it's when you're confident in your ability to spot when things are going wrong, and pick up the mess.

It's pretty easy to learn how to wield a flogger or a paddle, if you're not trying anything wildly complicated. What's harder is if you hit someone wrong and unintentionally trigger a bad experience. Can you talk them down from that? Can you intuit when to give them space and when to give them contact? I'm reasonably sure (and you can only ever be reasonably sure) that in most circumstances I can, just about.

The actual knots involved in common or garden rope bondage are simple. I can do most of them (I was never a girl scout, but I'm not an idiot.) Could I spot it if I was compressing a nerve, or if there was a rope somewhere it shouldn't be? I am unconvinced that I could. So I'm a rope newbie, and you won't ever (ever ever ever) see me tying someone up with rope without someone else next to me who knows what they're doing, so they can go 'ahem, ur doing it rong' if I'm doing it wrong.

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RE: When are you not a newbie? - 4/19/2012 3:14:20 AM

ResidentSadist

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It is a combination of experience, time. Eventually you learn enough to realize you don't know shit and you still have a lot to learn. At that point, in the moment when you are struck with the epiphany you have learned so much you can teach, but you are smart enough to know you have a lot to learn, that is when you can officially hang up your noob cap.

Off course, that's just my opinion.

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RE: When are you not a newbie? - 4/19/2012 5:58:51 AM

littlecherie

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I take quality over quantity any day.

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RE: When are you not a newbie? - 4/19/2012 6:40:07 AM

IrishMist

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quote:

ORIGINAL: littlecherie

I take quality over quantity any day.

and that says it all

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RE: When are you not a newbie? - 4/19/2012 10:23:46 AM

nousername1111

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I think it is when you stop falling for the 20 dollar scams which seem to be popular.

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RE: When are you not a newbie? - 4/19/2012 11:47:18 AM

Missokyst

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I was an odd duck. I was doing this stuff years before I found "the scene" and walked into it as an experienced player. I think the scene in general has it's own rules about who is new and who is experienced.
Some groups in my area require that you know someone in the inner sanctum and if you don't OR if they don't feel they need new members will regard you as a clueless noob regardless of how long you have done this.
And some will welcome you in and apart from the usual disclaimers about behavior they expect you to know how much you can handle and demand that you take an equal part in what happens next.

How people perceive you depends on what criteria they use for newcomers. I was lucky.

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RE: When are you not a newbie? - 4/20/2012 3:43:47 AM

FrostedFlake

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When you can ask a lady to see you, get slammed, say,"Well, I'll ask again later" and walk away smiling, fully intending to ask again later...

You can be sure you are not a newbie.

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RE: When are you not a newbie? - 4/20/2012 11:04:27 AM

tsuta

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i dunno what more to add to what others said, but i feel like sharing a little my own experience. When i was new to all this, i started out meeting guys individually,
and this is how i got my first play experiences; bondage, rough sex... in insight, i wish i would have started out by going to munches and stuff but i only discovered
fetlife and my local community after a few months. I discussed a lot in the forums, asking questions and stuff, and when i went to my first munch, there was already
some people who reconized me from online. Since then, i kept playing with some playpartners, after a while i started playing sometimes in the playparties, had great
conversations with people there... with time i became more aware of what i'm looking for. A couple of months ago i stopped seeing a playpartner because i was tired
of being only a playpartner. And a couple of weeks ago, a guy i've been seeing mostly at the playparties asked me to be under his consideration. And it's just great,
because we're taking it slow, we didn't even have sex yet (well we've gotten a little intimate physically, he saw me naked but yeah). For once i feel like i'm getting closer to what i've got into bdsm for in the first place;
an actual D/s relationship. We'll see how it goes but for now it's really nice to feel more important than just an occasional sex toy...

I'd say that for play-experience, i've stopped being a newbie a while ago, i know most of my limits, i know what i like, etc. But i was still (and still am) a newbie
when it comes to having a real bdsm relationship. It had just been play with no intention of getting more serious, so far.

Now that i've learned how to play, my next learning experience is to figure out with my potential Dom how to make it work in a relationship. Like others said you never stop
learning... and everyone has different paths (for exemple you're a "newbie", i suppose, from what you're saying, but you already have a D/s relationship with someone.. so your
learning process is different than mine was)

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RE: When are you not a newbie? - 4/20/2012 12:30:04 PM

RumpusParable

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No set time-frame, more of just actual experience with things... a person could be an expert in using a whip, but a complete newbie to fireplay. The could be a very experienced bottom, but new to topping.

Doing things and getting a feel for them is what makes a difference, IMO.

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